Time for a fresh water system upgrade, Options?

[The Brockerts]

I flushed the system yesterday and the Accumulator bladder broke followed by a pump failure. Both devices were original to this 31 year old boat. The pump probably was never rebuilt. The Paragon 12v DC motor Model PSR is working just find although it was made is March of 1989. All together this systems puts out 10 GPM around 40 PSI.

Question is: What is the fix/rebuild/replace strategy?

Rebuild the pump with rebuild kit $350.
Replace the Pressure tank $300.
And go with a 31 year old motor?

Replace everything with some newer technology? variable speed pump and motor, no tank needed?

The Brockerts

 

[HTurner]

Hello fellow Corpus boat!



I would bite the bullet and replace it all with basically what you had. It lasted 31 years.

 

[O C Diver]

If you're happy with the performance of what you had, hard to argue with putting the same back.

If you have made changes such as galley faucets and shower fixtures (such as I have), you may find the lower water pressure of your original equipment somewhat lacking. I chose to raise the water pressure to optimize the low flow fixtures. Both my shower control and galley faucet were home models with the mandated flow reduction.

Ted

 

[Marco Flamingo]

I have no idea why "boat" pressure tanks are so expensive. Yes, they are made of plastic so no rust, but a powder coated steel one at 1/10 the price is larger and will last just as long. They are made for all different applications but do the same thing. I bought a tiny plastic boat version when the old one leaked and am thinking of getting a non-boat version to give my pump more of a rest between pressurizing. Look around and you can find them with included mounts that allow bulkhead/deck/ceiling attachments.

 

[catalinajack]

I have no idea why "boat" pressure tanks are so expensive. Yes, they are made of plastic so no rust, but a powder coated steel one at 1/10 the price is larger and will last just as long. They are made for all different applications but do the same thing. I bought a tiny plastic boat version when the old one leaked and am thinking of getting a non-boat version to give my pump more of a rest between pressurizing. Look around and you can find them with included mounts that allow bulkhead/deck/ceiling attachments.

Home Depot. Forty bucks.

 

[Comodave]

I would go with the tank and the pump. We tried a variable speed pump and it didn’t work very well and made some loud noises. Maybe they are better now but since that one I have just stayed with the old technology, tried and true.

 

[Simi 60]

$6000 water pump?
Insanity

https://www.marinedirect.com.au/psr-12v-groco-paragon-senior-water-pressure-system

We are now running a 240v pump
40 litres/minute with a built in accumulator tank
$135
Loses a bit when reduced from 1 inch to 1/2 inch but still more than enough output.

Being a cast iron pump housing the water out can be tainted for the first 3 litres after sitting all night but a $10 carbon filter has sorted that out


https://mtfwater-com-au.myshopify.c...c-water-pump-for-home-and-garden-40-litre-min

 

[tiltrider1]

My neighbor just replaced an accumulator tank on a 1971 uniflite this summer. We found the exact same tank at Granger for less than $100. It was a simple painted steel tank. Same as used on farms. After all, fresh water is fresh water same on a boat as a house. The painted outside protects the steel from the elements.

As for pumps. Many years ago a Paragon Senior was as good as it got. Many of them are still in operation. The Paragon Jr was the next best. Around the mid 90's Jabsco and Sure introduced an extremely economical pump. This pretty much killed the market for Paragon. These variable speed pumps are not really that good and reliability is decent but not great. However, they are so inexpensive you can built dual pump system for 1/4 of the price of a Paragon Senior. They were just so cheap no one cared about the short cummings like higher pressure and lower volume. Now Marco and other have come along with screw pumps. They are much more reliable, lower pressure but higher volume. They are much nicer in every way except price. Not anywhere as expensive as a Paragon Senior but equal in every way.

My point is, I would consider an upgrade to a Marco before I invested in an old Paragon pump.

 

[hmason]

My Paragon Senior failed at age 15. I bought the rebuild kit and took it all to a pump repair company. It took them about 20 minutes to do the rebuild. They charged me $90. I don’t remember the cost of the kit but I think it was about $275. I replaced the accumulator tank with with a Home Depot hot water expansion tank for $40. It’s now 11 years since the rebuild and it’s still running great. I think the Paragon Senior can be rebuilt forever and I would not replace it.

 

[HopCar]

I had a Paragon Jr run 28 years without a rebuild.
I think the Paragon Sr is the finest water system pump out there. The design goes back to the 1940’s. Groco bought the rights at some point and have continued to make it.
They have become very expensive!
I would rebuild the one you have.

I get tired of people saying everything that says marine on it costs too much. It costs more to manufacture marine grade products. In the case of accumulator tanks, the people are right. Buy one from Home Depot. Neither Groco or Jabsco actually make the tanks. They are just rebranded household tanks.

 

[Simi 60]

I get tired of people saying everything that says marine on it costs too much. It costs more to manufacture marine grade products.

And yet.....

In the case of accumulator tanks, the people are right. Buy one from Home Depot. Neither Groco or Jabsco actually make the tanks. They are just rebranded household tanks.

With a super expensive price tag attached because they say marine.

 

[FF]

The tanks come in a variety of sizes . The largest one you can easily install will be the best in operation.

Rebuilding a great pump, (gee only 31 years ) is usually a better deal than a long line of cheep pumps.

For a budget choice, a bait well model usually has the same pump head as the less expensive models , but lasts way longer, because the motor is 50-70% larger

A home well pump pressure switch ,under $20 at the hardware store is very hard to beat , especially if using with a nice big accumulator tank.

For those doing a complete FW system using 5/8 copper tubing with flair fittings cost a bit more , but the water pressure can be reduced and the green slime wont grow in copper as it does in plastic.

Use a refrigeration grade flair set and tubing bender , tho the spring ones work fine but slowly.

NEVER use clear plastic in a FW system.

 

[Rufus]

I replaced the original 30 year old stainless steel Groco tank last year with an exact duplicate for $150. ( The bladder had collapsed). The pulleys and belt were replaced on the Paragon Jr. pump and motor a few years ago. I also repaired a pin hole leak in the the pressure sensor on the pump with a smear of epoxy. System works great...no screwing around with revised wiring, mounting and plumbing.

 

[HopCar]

And yet.....



With a super expensive price tag attached because they say marine.

Go to Home Depot and buy a seacock and see what it costs.

 

[Simi 60]

Go to Home Depot and buy a seacock and see what it costs.

Do they sell them?

No really sure how a seacock relates to a fresh water pump.

 

[HopCar]

Do they sell them?

No really sure how a seacock relates to a fresh water pump.

No you can’t buy a seacock at Home Depot. My point is that marine equipment costs more to make and the market is much smaller than regular hardware. That makes it expensive.

 

[Simi 60]

No you can’t buy a seacock at Home Depot. My point is that marine equipment costs more to make and the market is much smaller than regular hardware. That makes it expensive.

And I understand that but a fresh water pump is not necessarily marine equipment.

It pumps the same fresh water be it on a boat inside a dry space or on land inside a dry space, the pump doesn't know where it is.

 

[Mako]

I have no idea why "boat" pressure tanks are so expensive. Yes, they are made of plastic so no rust, but a powder coated steel one at 1/10 the price is larger.

What he said!

I bought a 14 gallon (best I can remember) accumulator from the big box store. Phenomenal and really reduced cycling of my REALLY crappy water pump. Go for it.

BTW you should't have to spend $350 to rebuild a pump. You should be able to buy a 12v water pump for a lot less than that - just stay away from West Marine.

 

[Mako]

I'm thinking about this argument between HopCar and Simi above. Reminds me of why I really like big boats. When I had my 65 footer the only thing I ever bought from the ridiculous West Marine was a toilet seat. Everything else either came from ship salvage and big box stores. Stainless hardware, tubing, giant anchors, 1" nylon rope, everything.

On a bigger boat you feel comfortable installing a 230V or 120V domestic water pump which costs $40 (well, say $80 with a spare on hand) knowing it will likely run for a decade. Everyone has an inverter anyway, plus carrying a spare cheapo from Harbor Freight is no big deal. Try comparing marine tiny little eenie weenie fridges and stoves versus domestic appliances. What's the price difference for a custom cut foam mattress and linens for your V-berth versus a wonderful full or queen mattress from Ikea or Sears?

Plus you don't have to crawl around on your belly to service all the systems in the engine-lack-of-room with 4ft of headspace.

The examples goes on and on.

PS - That was a fun rant

 

[HopCar]

And I understand that but a fresh water pump is not necessarily marine equipment.

It pumps the same fresh water be it on a boat inside a dry space or on land inside a dry space, the pump doesn't know where it is.

Good point. The pump doesn’t know where it is. You could use a a shallow well pump designed for use on land.

It would run many years on AC power but not DC.

The shallow well pump has a steel mount that will rust on a boat. The Paragon is mounted on a cast bronze base with vibration mounts.

The shallow well pump probably has a cast iron or cheap stainless pump head. The Paragon is bronze.

The shallow well pump has an open pressure switch. The Paragon switch is sealed.

Would I spend $2500 for a pump? If I could afford a 50 foot plus boat, I would. I sprang for the Paragon Jr for my little 28 foot boat.

 

[GoneDiving]

For anyone wanting long life and compatability with corrosive environments, just buy a industrial chem pump. No vanity "Marine Supply Store" pricing and designed to operate with everything from concentrated acids down.

For those that follow the 80/20 rule (80% of the features for 20% of the cost), just buy a generic domestic unit and throw it away when it fails earlier.

Anyone else is welcome to buy a $6k water pump. It's your money and boat.?

 

[HopCar]

“Anyone else is welcome to buy a $6k water pump. It's your money and boat.��”
That brings up the question of why marine products cost about twice as much in Australia as they do in the US? The Paragon PSR is usually less than $3k in the US.

 

[GoneDiving]

That brings up the question of why marine products cost about twice as much in Australia as they do in the US? The Paragon PSR is usually less than $3k in the US.

Welcome to the Australian peso. ?

USD 3k is AUD 4k. So add low volume shipping, local taxes etc, all of which are subject to retail and wholesale mark ups.

Do you dive? Don't get me started on $500 scuba tanks.

Perhaps that's the reason so many sailors terminate their voyage and sell their vessel here. Probably pays for the holiday.

 

[Simi 60]

“Anyone else is welcome to buy a $6k water pump. It's your money and boat.��”
That brings up the question of why marine products cost about twice as much in Australia as they do in the US? The Paragon PSR is usually less than $3k in the US.

$3k is still crazy money for something as simple as a pump.

But, $3499 USD here for 24v
https://www.defender.com/product.jsp?id=4071608


That's $4800 AUD
Plus Freight
Plus GST of 10%
Gets it close enough to $6000 ish

As for your earlier comment on our $135 water pump being cast iron so can rust
Sure it can but so can our primary engine
The Genset
Our steering quadrant
The hydraulic rams for the steering
Lots of things
Yet they are there and working and will probably outlast me
I'm sure the steering quadrant is 40 years old.

And really
Does making a pump out of bronze warrant a 4500% increase over cast iron?

 

[catalinajack]

Good point. The pump doesn’t know where it is. You could use a a shallow well pump designed for use on land.



It would run many years on AC power but not DC.



The shallow well pump has a steel mount that will rust on a boat. The Paragon is mounted on a cast bronze base with vibration mounts.



The shallow well pump probably has a cast iron or cheap stainless pump head. The Paragon is bronze.



The shallow well pump has an open pressure switch. The Paragon switch is sealed.



Would I spend $2500 for a pump? If I could afford a 50 foot plus boat, I would. I sprang for the Paragon Jr for my little 28 foot boat.

Geez, Hopcar, I don't always agree with Simi 60 but he makes very good points about less costly, a lot less, pumps. So what that shallow well pumps may rust out. Would one rust out any faster on a boat any faster than in a damp cellar environment? I don't think so and they seems to last years and years. Plus, I would argue that a boat environment is actually a better than a typical home cellar. In any case a shallow well pump can be had for less than $300 US so when it rusts out in 10 or 20 years, but a new one. Big deal. And that is not to mention that a shallow well pump delivers plenty of pressure and more volume than any boat could possibly use. I went with a Grundfos 120VAC pump, bullet proof used on a boat but more expensive than the typical shallow well pump. Same deal. Gobs of pressure and volume.

The*Grundfos MQ3-35 3/4 HP Pressure Boost Pump (115V)*is compact and extremely easy to install with an updated diffuser design for an increase in hydraulic performance. The pressure switch and tank are already built into the MQ. The settings are clearly indicated on the user-friendly control panel with indicator lights for Pump on/off, auto reset, and an alarm indicating dry running or over-heating.*
Grundfos MQ is built for trouble free operation. It's construction from corrosion resistant materials means it can be used for clean water. It's high-torque motor and Class A capacitor ensures that it will start consistently and runs dependably. The anti-cycling feature prevents the pump from repeatedly starting and stopping in the event of a dripping tap or a minor leak, while also featuring a more durable printed circuit for consistent performance during power fluctuations. If there is no water available, the pump will stop to protect itself and restart automatically when water is available again.

 

[FF]

"The shallow well pump has a steel mount that will rust on a boat"

Solved with a paint brush

"The shallow well pump has an open pressure switch."

These are $20.00 at most hardware stores and usually live for a decade or two on an outside exposed well pump. The most common failure is ants inside.

 

[GoneDiving]

"The shallow well pump has a steel mount that will rust on a boat"

Solved with a paint brush

True. Marine Protective Coating aka "paint" is available for $800 a gal at most chandlers. It even comes with a picture of a yacht on the can to increase its durability ??

 

[HTurner]

True. Marine Protective Coating aka "paint" is available for $800 a gal at most chandlers. It even comes with a picture of a yacht on the can to increase its durability ??

Of course, if it had a picture of a cow on it they could only charge $45.00.

 

[GoneDiving]

Of course, if it had a picture of a cow on it they could only charge $45.00.

Why would you want to paint a cow??

Sorry, I couldn't resist. ??

On a serious note, what are people using for an equivalent salt water/ deck wash pump? Exploring the options above has brought up a few stainless pumps c/w accumulator and pressure switch. Pool pumps seem to be lower pressure and continuous run only.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

The marine hardware "premium" can sometimes be supported, but often not. Somebody has done a little research and found a part that fits just the marine application that you need. So they charge a premium for that. I found a radiator cap on Ebay advertised to fit my old Lehman 80hp. $38. When I got it, I could see that it was a standard Stant cap that my local NAPA Auto Parts sold for $9. Bad on me for not doing the research. But does the Ebay one deserve a marine hardware premium? Certainly not because it's "marine," but maybe because somebody did the research for me. I guess people have differing opinions on this.

I now looking at the possibility of going to a double belt dive for my alternator. My Lehman already has a double pully on it. My alternator company has one specifically for this marine application. $148. NAPA has the pulley (not claimed to be marine) for $16.48. This time, I've done the research. Should I buy the marine version?