Stabilizers - hydraulic or pneumatic

[mvweebles]

Okay, that makes sense, although it is unfortunate. For me, a company requiring a wire transfer to pay for their product would be a HUGE red flag. . . . Maybe they've had a history of people purchasing with CC's, who they treated shabbily, and who disputed their charges?!? I like to have some recourse in the event the purchase goes south. I did note where you approved the change to 12 volt, but it is unacceptable that they left it for you to finish the engineering/spec'ing of the final part of the installation. Thank you for the heads up, Wesmar is now permanently off my list of stabilizers that I want to put in.

Given the cost of the system, even a small one, a wire transfer did not strike me as unusual, especially from a company with whom I've seen in the trade for so long. But as I say, they had a change in ownership a couple years ago, so maybe something changed.

To start the process, I filled-out an online form to give Wesmar some info to qualify me (size, location, etc.). Their form hasn't changed in the 6-months since I initially contacted them - you can find it HERE (note the pull-down menu that asks for 12v or 24v system). When the system showed-up, I saw it was a 24v system. No problem I thought - we'll just swap-out the controllers for a 12v system. No need to ship the heavy stuff back, right? Wrong - first, it ain't that simple. Second, 24v is the only flavor produced these days. The 12v system is simply not made. Wesmar immediately went into defense mode and claimed the only way this could happen is if I authorized it, and I must of done so during one of the phone calls or they would have never done it. Now, I can tell you that I've been around boats long enough to recognize 24v and 12v components aren't interchangeable. Why Wesmar would think that a 36-foot boat built in California would be anything other than 12v is beyond me, but that's their story.

To their defense, what I did find was on the original invoice - the one that I paid via wire transfer, was a very long laundry list of parts. Buried in the middle of about 75 line-items is a controller that, as part of a long part number, the alpha/numeric "24v" is indeed included. I just wasn't looking that closely since I clearly ordered a 12v system.

The tragedy of this though is that this is a very well known conversion. I guess small plane avionics bump into this all the time and there are some very high quality 12v to 24v step-up converters available (I purchased a Newmar for about $350 or so). They are small, reliable, and compact, but you do need to size them properly (I ended up with a 9A@24V to give some idea). As a matter of fact, I looked at a Naiad quote I received and they had included a $500 12v to 24v transformer as part of their package (I'm pretty sure they use the same Eaton controls Wesmar uses).

The 12V/24V workaround I received from Wesmar was two 12v Group 31 batteries in series with a 24v charger - basically, what is needed for a 24v thruster on a 12v boat, and way overkill for ~10A of power requirement for the controls on the stabilizers (only the controls - heavy lifting is done by hydraulics, of course). After some googling, I discovered the 12V to 24V transformer so asked Wesmar about it - that's when they really shut-up, and would not provide the power requirement needed so I could size it (their manual was blank on this). Someone on this forum gave me the name of a technician at Wesmar who quietly answered my question about power requirement, and I ordered the appropriate sized Newmar. Problem solved, but it's a shame I had to re-invent the wheel. Simple question took hours/days to resolve.

Now, when I originally posted this tale of woe, I got a few comments about using a qualified installer which I did, albeit a small one that doesn't install a ton of systems. Definitely would have helped, but I am still baffled as to why Wesmar couldn't answer some very simple specification questions, especially since I'm the guy writing the check. Even if I was entirely off-base (and I wasn't, though I did get a bit pissed-off at times so may not have been as nice as I might otherwise have been), I'm stunned the CEO ignored my repeated messages.

Bottom line, in my opinion and in my experience in this very expensive (to me) transaction, there was a misunderstanding that could have been easily resolved had Wesmar been more focused on solving a problem versus denying their culpability and going into radio-silence mode. I cannot speak for others, all I can say is I'm really sorry I chose them for my stabilizers. I hope they work well. And I do appreciate the technician who assisted, even though he did so on the DL.

 

[mvweebles]

My Grand Banks ABT stabilizer installation was a 24V stabilizer system in a 12V boat. ABT included an appropriately sized 12V to 24V converter. Worked a charm.

Yep. As mentioned in my long post a moment ago, Naiad does the same (though I was unable to figure out what brand/size they use). Why Wesmar was clueless on this is beyond me. What should have been a 15-minute conversation culminating in a $500 purchase of a transformer turned into 2-weeks and a dozen hours plus countless lost brain cells. It was really an unusual experience. Like many on this forum, I've been bouncing around boats for a lot of years and done a ton of work. This was truly an usual experience. Vast majority of marine suppliers/manufacturers I've talked to have been fabulous. With my refit, a really long list. Given TT's Nordhavn/GB illness, I'm sure you have an even longer list of great interactions, albeit expensive ones

 

[Fletcher500]

I have never had fins and decided on a Gyro instead for various reasons. It has worked well for us as noted in a brief summary I wrote awhile back for the builder at his request and posted on his website.

I have personally seen the aftermath of two incidents in shore side industry where high pressure, 1-2K psi, hydraulic systems developed pin hole leaks around the seals and a fire started. It doesn’t take much to ignite it, as the atomized spray is ready to go, just like the old school steam boilers I worked on as a kid when we burned bunker fuel. The heat of combustion of a spray oil fire involving a high flash point hydraulic liquid has the same heat of combustion as gasoline. Fire sprinkler, water mist, gas, you name it, it will not extinguish the fire.

Now, with that said, there are gazillions of boats using these systems and I have yet to hear of a single spray oil fire on a boat. Has anyone else?

Also, when these things blow, it gets very messy, quick. Unless there is automatic interlock, the pump will continue cranking out the fluid until the reservoir is empty, or the operator notices it and hits the E stop. Again, never heard of this happening on a boat. Has anyone?

No, not fear mongering, just giving a few examples of my my experience with these in shore side apps over the past 32 years.

 

[twistedtree]

I had a hydraulic leak that mostly emptied the tank, but then the system automatically shut down as it is designed to do. And I know others who have had ruptured lines. It's an occupational hazard, just like many aspects of our boats. Heck, a little hole and the whole darn thing will sink. But look at how widely hydraulics are used across all sorts of industries. All in all, they are really reliable, if maintained, just like most things.


I think one can get all spun up (pun intended) over just about any major system in a boat. Lightening will strike and disable the engine. Hydraulics will rupture and dump oil. Batteries will spontaneously combust. And just imagine if that gyro came loose and started skipping around inside the boat.


Short of staying home, the trick is to understand what you have, maintain it, and do what you can to mitigate risk. Then go boating.

 

[Fletcher500]

I haven’t heard about Gyros coming loose, have you?

Simply relating my experience with two shore side applications where large scale spray fires occurred and asking if others had seen any on boats.

Yup, anything can take you out, including the hole.

 

[BrisHamish]

"A GB 46 with 7.5sq ft fins must be amazing in a rough sea. Sizing stabilizers up properly is something most builders don’t do to either save on cost or the speed penalty of drag. I’ve seen big displacement yachts like an Outer Reef running 6sq ft fins as their standard."

It sure is! Cost was higher of course, and a little more drag underway, but the old rock'n'roll motion of the boat is a thing of the past. We happily now cruise from Brisbane (Australia) south to Sydney or north to Hamilton Island, no probs.

I think the GB factory standard was to put Naiad 252 with 7.5sq ft fins on the GB52, I think the GB46 came with slightly smaller fins if you ordered from the factory standard.

Hamish.

 

[Hornloaded]

By the way Hornloaded, I love your screen name. What's the genesis of that? .

I am an acoustical engineer that designs horn loaded speakers.
My sail boat is named Waveguide.

 

[GoneFarrell]

Cool!

How do you get a set of Klipschorns down the hatch?

 

[Symphony]

have you considered any of the AC or DC electric stabilizers?

CMC Waveless run on AC generator. they are true zero-speed stabilizers and could run off a 3kW genset.
Humpree stabilizers run on DC and easy installation. Vicem factory just installed a set on a 67' Cruiser and said the sea trials were amazing, moving or at zero-speed.
Everyone I know with hydraulic stabilizers deals with overheating or leaks or both. Start reading blogs and search on ABT or Naiad stabilizers. Robust systems for big boats but a complete maintenance project all the time.

 

[caltexflanc]

I am an acoustical engineer that designs horn loaded speakers.
My sail boat is named Waveguide.

Terrific, hope you enjoyed my back story. There's more to it if you are interested. Side by side, those JBLs sounded so much truer than the Klipschorns. Jim Lansing was reported to be kind of a weird guy, died youngish as I recall. Paul Klipsch, who I did get to meet a couple times, was a pretty cool dude.

Back to the topic at hand, the rule of thumb is that the slower you go, the bigger your fins have to be for optimum performance. So if you have a planing boat that you run below hull speed, you will usually find somewhat (thoeretically) undersized fins for your use.

 

[DW1979OA]

I don’t have any other brand to compare with, but my ABT have never given me an ounce of trouble. They were already installed when I purchased my boat in Alameda in 2012. I found out that the factory was near Santa Rosa, CA and since I lived in Sacramento at the time, tooK advantage of their week long training on the product. There were others in the class that were waiting to get their stabilizers installed on a new Nordhaven. Learned a lot about hydraulics and toured the manufacturing plant. Also got to meet the customer service people.
Brought the boat up to Bremerton in 2016 and the stabilizers performed flawlessly. They were on 24/7 for the 4.5 day trip up from SFO. The Admiral turns them on as soon as we are clear of our slip, even if the water is like glass.
The factory rep is in the Puget Sound area and I’ll be having him do the service on the units this March. Might be able to do it myself but I like to watch the pros do it the first time so I can decide if it is something I’d want to do if there is a next time

 

[timb7734]

I have had ABT-TRAC on one vessel and Seakeeper Gyro on two boats, still have one of them and the ABT boat. For my money the Seakeepers reign, they work at anchor, going slow or going fast, and nothing protrudes to be scraped off on rocks or catch crab pots, also very little maintenance on Seakeepers if you have the space

 

[Hornloaded]

I have been looking at this; MC² Gyro Stabilizer .
They take a lot less power.

 

[mvweebles]

I have had ABT-TRAC on one vessel and Seakeeper Gyro on two boats, still have one of them and the ABT boat. For my money the Seakeepers reign, they work at anchor, going slow or going fast, and nothing protrudes to be scraped off on rocks or catch crab pots, also very little maintenance on Seakeepers if you have the space

More new boats will be designed with space in mind for the Seakeeper. Aside from the cost which will hopefully come down too, the requirement for 24/7 generator is a deal killer. Just not how I roll.

 

[caltexflanc]

the requirement for 24/7 generator is a deal killer.

If you're in a protected anchorage, why not just turn them off for the night?

Admittedly, these things made their name in the fishing market, the difference they make on the drift is fantastic. They are becoming quite popular in the center console market, including small 12 volt units that will work for the day.

 

[Fletcher500]

The need to run a Gen for a Seakeeper is definitely not compatible for longer range cruisers. The reality for the majority of boaters, myself included, is shorter runs up and down the coast. I have a Generator, so running it for a typical 2 to 12 hour trip is no big deal and the Gen gets his exercise. I am planning a 30 hour continuous run up the coast in a few weeks and will run the SK for the duration. When I get there, it will get turned off and stays off even while at anchorage because we don't need it and I don't want to be burning hydrocarbons unnecessarily. I have exchanged emails in the past with a long time commercial fisherman in Europe who is on his second boat (50 footer) with a Seakeeper, and he loves it. There are a lot of good systems out there that will fit peoples cruising needs, just giving our experiences based on the past 2 years of using one.

 

[jimdavi]

How does the Seakeeper work at displacement speed, ~8kts?

 

[sunchaser]

The need to run a Gen for a Seakeeper is definitely not compatible for longer range cruisers. The reality for the majority of boaters, myself included, is shorter runs up and down the coast. .

Fletcher

Good post. Some vessels are closer to a 24/7 genset run time due to vessel size, AC needs or desired less reliance on inverter power. So the Seakeeper is a good load sharing addition. Also vessels with Seakeepers can install a 5 kW or so engine mounted or hydraulic driven cruise generator thus the genset can remain off during cruise time.

 

[Fletcher500]

How does the Seakeeper work at displacement speed, ~8kts?

The boats speed is not a factor. Slow or faster, the SK doesn’t care.

 

[jimdavi]

Thanks.

Had recently decided on AB Trac, and checking on yards, our local installer in the Bay Area is now exclusively Seakeeper. He suggested I compare systems.

I think I understand the trade-offs of each system but most videos/docs show Seakeeper performance at zero speed. I have no issue running genny. Can’t even hear the 9kw NL when it’s running. Most granny’s are under utilized anyway.

Not a huge fan of appendages sticking out under boat, all else equal. Have plenty of room in lazarette (sp) as well.

I’m headed to Long Beach on the 6th to ride the Seakeeper demo boat. Very interested in performance ~7-8 kts, our usual speed. Some blogs in Europe speak highly of gyro at displacement speeds but want to verify.

 

[mvweebles]

Thanks.

Had recently decided on AB Trac, and checking on yards, our local installer in the Bay Area is now exclusively Seakeeper. He suggested I compare systems.

I think I understand the trade-offs of each system but most videos/docs show Seakeeper performance at zero speed. I have no issue running genny. Can’t even hear the 9kw NL when it’s running. Most granny’s are under utilized anyway.

Not a huge fan of appendages sticking out under boat, all else equal. Have plenty of room in lazarette (sp) as well.

I’m headed to Long Beach on the 6th to ride the Seakeeper demo boat. Very interested in performance ~7-8 kts, our usual speed. Some blogs in Europe speak highly of gyro at displacement speeds but want to verify.

I'll be very interested to understand your decision and decision process. Only owner complaints I've heard have been related to undersizing the system, which is common to all stabilizer systems due to expense (moreso with Seakeeper I suppose due to higher expense).

Good luck - the only time I can wish a fellow boater rough seas with good intentions!

Peter

 

[jimdavi]

Will keep everyone posted. Thankfully there is a NP 45 with ABTrac in San Diego and the owner and I have been in contact. Might be able to do a good Comp.

 

[Fletcher500]

JDavi,

I was very transparent in my write up I did on our system, good and bad, that was posted on the Helmsman website.

I have been aboard, and see the other NP45 down here often. He seems like a knowledgeable guy, sailing background if I remember correctly, and should be able to give you some good intel on his fins.

 

[caltexflanc]

Gyros really shine at zero speed and very slow speeds. That's why they are popular on sport fishing boats. I was on the Bertram they first used as a demo boat and it was almost eerie. Guys who fish a lot says it takes getting used to, they are so accustomed to reacting to oncoming ocean motion.

 

[Hot Chilli]

Air Vs Hydraulics

I have pretty limited exposure to hydraulics, less to pneumatics. I've replaced hoses and rams and such, but, compared to other mechanical stuff, not a lot of experience. From the perspective of a novice, when is hydraulic used vs pneumatic, or vice-versa? I've always thought hydraulic, due to being incompressable, was beefier. I'm guessing food-grade package handling is air vs oil, but is there more to the design criteria? Why not use pneumatic thrusters or windlasses or stabilizers?

Hi good to meet you all, enjoy reading all the threads emerging from this forum and learning a lot.

Hydraulics systems are able to operate at much higher pressures say above 2000psi as in all the lines that drive the cylinders in an excavator. Hydraulics systems have a broad range of applications and pressures used can range from 600psi to 15,000psi. As mentioned there is no compression therefore it provides quick reaction times and able to deliver very high forces.

Pneumatic systems in principle operate in the same manner but have slower reaction times and operate at much lower pressures typically in the 100Psi range. Pneumatics systems by comparison are far more economical and there fore where the additional benefits of hydraulics don't require the additional cost one would use a pneumatic system.

Compressed air however fails differently and is far more dangerous than a hydraulic system. (Why a fitting blowing out of an air compressor hose is a projectile that can kill whilst a blow out fitting in a garden hose or a hydraulic system provides an unwelcome shower)

Whilst i have no experience with Stabilizers but have a reasonable level of experience with Hydraulics and Pneumatics, my automatic reaction would be to say this is a natural for a hydraulic system. The use of pneumatics would be driven by a significantly lower cost and all the associated lower levels of performance.

There are many applications where hydraulics are a total overkill for the application and Pneumatic come into their own, work reliably and are the perfect solution.

The question is ... is the lower performance factor of a pneumatics design in this application sufficient to want to spend the additional cost of a hydraulic system. I personally would not consider a pneumatic systems in my selection process for this application. It seems the majority of stabiliser manufactures take a similar approach

Hope this helps a bit.

Ric



I bought a trawler and a year on i realised a bought a project boat !!!