Propane Tanks Grand Banks

[slowgoesit]

The ABYC propane installation standard is among the shortest in the book, and among the most frequently violated.

LP lockers can be integral with the vessel, under a settee for instance, provided, among other things, they are top opening and fully gas-tight to the hull interior (this one looks like it has louvers, that's prohibited). There can be no unions or valves in the LP line between the tank and the appliance, with one exception, a transition from pipe to hose as allowed for gimballed stoves. The locker drain must allow gas to flow overboard and discharge away from openings to the hull, portlights or vents for instance.

The requirements, and my recommendations, are summarized here https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/LPGas169-02.pdf

I recently conducted an inspection on a trawler, with the owner. When I opened the LP locker I got a faint whiff of gas. I suggested we conduct a leak test. He said, "how do we do that?". "With the leak detector, otherwise known as a pressure gauge", I responded. He was a savvy owner, very mechanically competent, but he had no idea the pressure gauge was designed for this, and only this purpose (contrary to popular belief, it does not measure gas quantity, LP maintains the same pressure regardless of volume).

Using the pressure gauge you should leak test your system monthly. In this case, the gauge could be seen to drop almost immediately, it was a serious leak. Using soapy water, however, we found no leaks in the LP locker, we did find a leak at a valve in the stove top. His wife said to me, "I've bene telling him I smelled something like garbage in this area".

There was a sniffer sensor mounted under the stove, however, it wasn't sounding, I suspect because instead of of being mounted on the deck it was mounted on the bulkhead a couple of inches above the deck. Sensors should also be tested regularly, by allowing gas from a butane lighter (without the flame) to flow into them. I like to have a sensor under the stove and another in the LP locker, again as low as possible and where they can be accessed for testing.

Steve, I've always wondered about the portion highlighted in RED above. Doesn't this preclude the use of electrically actuated propane shutoff valves since it consists of two additional connections, or unions, one on each side of the solenoid valve, as well as being an actual valve in itself?

 

[Steve DAntonio]

Yikes! That could have turned out badly. We always keep the valves off at the tank unless it's in-use.

Does the butane trick work with most sensors?

Agree, to their credit they did as well, using the remote solenoid.

Yes, if a sensor doesn't sound with butane it's not working.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

In one place in the article it says tanks not in use must be stored the same as ones in use. Then in the BBQ section it says tanks may be stored on deck.

Maybe Steve can elaborate on the difference.

you can use or store tanks on deck, open air, provided they meet the detailed requirements.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

Steve, I've always wondered about the portion highlighted in RED above. Doesn't this preclude the use of electrically actuated propane shutoff valves since it consists of two additional connections, or unions, one on each side of the solenoid valve, as well as being an actual valve in itself?

I should have been clearer, you can have no unions, valves or other connections, other than the gimballed stove exception, outside the locker. There are no prohibitions regarding connections, unions etc. inside the locker.

 

[ronobrien]

My 1973 GB36 has the LPG tanks under the port settee (same as Carl). The locker is vented to the flybridge deck surface and the remote shutoff is a manual valve handle in the overhead above the stove which goes directly to the valve in the locker under the settee.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

My 1973 GB36 has the LPG tanks under the port settee (same as Carl). The locker is vented to the flybridge deck surface and the remote shutoff is a manual valve handle in the overhead above the stove which goes directly to the valve in the locker under the settee.

And is that valve handle penetration gas tight from the locker to the cabin?

Vented to the FB deck surface isn't kosher, it has to go overboard/ outboard.

 

[slowgoesit]

I should have been clearer, you can have no unions, valves or other connections, other than the gimballed stove exception, outside the locker. There are no prohibitions regarding connections, unions etc. inside the locker.

That makes sense, thanks for the clarification!

 

[tiltrider1]

And is that valve handle penetration gas tight from the locker to the cabin?

Vented to the FB deck surface isn't kosher, it has to go overboard/ outboard.

Correct me if I am wrong. I believe ABYC states that if the propane tanks are stored out side of the boat none of the following rules apply. Then it goes on to list the rules.

Of course this brings in a long discussion on what constitutes outside the boat.

This wouldn’t relate to the ronobrien. I get the feeling that his valve is in clear violation regardless of where his tanks are.

Part of propane’s problem is that what was acceptable in 1974,1984,1994, and 2004 is no longer acceptable. Yet there hundreds of boats out there with older systems that have never been updated. They haven’t blown up in 30 years so the must be safe right? Remember, you might be betting your life on it.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

Correct me if I am wrong. I believe ABYC states that if the propane tanks are stored out side of the boat none of the following rules apply. Then it goes on to list the rules.

Of course this brings in a long discussion on what constitutes outside the boat.

This wouldn’t relate to the ronobrien. I get the feeling that his valve is in clear violation regardless of where his tanks are.

Part of propane’s problem is that what was acceptable in 1974,1984,1994, and 2004 is no longer acceptable. Yet there hundreds of boats out there with older systems that have never been updated. They haven’t blown up in 30 years so the must be safe right? Remember, you might be betting your life on it.

If the tanks are on deck, not in a locker, meeting the specified requirements, see below.

The, "it was Ok when the boat was built" argument doesn't hold water for a few reasons. If an installation presents an explosion, fire or flooding hazard, it doesn't care whether or not it was compliant when the vessel was built. I'd further argue that in many cases the vessel wasn't compliant when it was built, the ABYC LP Gas Standard was first introduced in 1965. It's unlikely most builders of that era were striving for ABYC compliance.

Having said that, I realize bringing older vessel up to compliance can be challenging and costly. My approach is to make them as compliant as reasonably possible, assuming that is they can be made reasonably safe. If an older vessel has it's LP tank in a gasoline engine room, that's clearly not acceptable and needs to be changed regardless of cost.

While most old, non-compliant boats haven't blown up, some have, a web search will bring up many examples.

Here are some relevant definitions from the ABYC standard...

1.7.6.1.1 The cylinder shall be installed in a dedicated locker meeting the requirements of A-1.8.
EXCEPTION: LPG cylinders installed on the exterior of the boat where escaping gases will flow directly overboard.

1.4.5 LPG Locker - an enclosure to hold only the LP gas bottle(s) and the associated regulator(s), safety equipment and hose(s) (see A-1.8 for requirements on LPG enclosures).

1.8 LPG LOCKERS
1.8.1 Lockers used to contain LPG cylinders, cylinder valves, regulating equipment and safety devices shall be designed to minimize the likelihood of use as a gear storage locker and shall:
1.8.1.1 be vapor tight to the hull interior, and
1.8.1.2 be located above the waterline, and
1.8.1.3 be constructed of, or lined with, corrosion resistant materials, and
1.8.1.4 open only from the top with a gasketed cover that shall latch tightly, and
1.8.1.5 be capable of being quickly and conveniently opened without tools.

1.8.2 Installation
1.8.2.1 LPG lockers shall be installed so that the locker opens only directly to the outside atmosphere, and
1.8.2.2 if an LPG locker is installed inside a boat locker, the LPG locker shall be located as high and as close to the boat locker’s opening as possible in order to comply with A-1.8.2.1.
1.8.3 When means of access to the LPG equipment locker or housing is open, the cylinder valves shall be capable of being conveniently and quickly operated, and the system pressure gauge dials shall be fully visible.
1.8.4 Lockers shall be vented at the bottom by a dedicated vent, with a minimum diameter of any component in the vent system that shall be not less than one half inch (12.7 mm) inside diameter.
1.8.5 Locker vents shall be led outboard, without pockets, through the hull to a point lower than the locker bottom and above the waterline with the boat in the static floating position.
NOTE: See ABYC H-27, Seacocks, Thru-Hull Fittings, and Drain Plugs for requirements for seacocks.
1.8.6 Locker vent openings shall be located at least 20 in (508 mm) from any hull opening to the boat interior.
1.8.7 LPG lockers shall not be used for storage of any equipment other than LPG cylinders, cylinder valves, regulating equipment, and LPG safety devices (see
A-1.8.1).
1.8.8 Storage provisions for unconnected reserve cylinders, filled or empty, shall be the same as for cylinders in use.

 

[mvweebles]

Question: vertical propane lockers are disallowed, even if in an open flybridge. Why? Attached pics are fron Steve Ds article and noted that retrofitting compliance can be challenging. Suppose the vent on the left pic were sealed/removed and the locker vented outboard. The hatch door is high creating a tub/well in the locker. Technically not compliant, but functionally compliant.

What's the thinking with requiring top-opening locker even on an open deck?

Peter

 

[Bmarler]

Question: vertical propane lockers are disallowed, even if in an open flybridge. Why? Attached pics are fron Steve Ds article and noted that retrofitting compliance can be challenging. Suppose the vent on the left pic were sealed/removed and the locker vented outboard. The hatch door is high creating a tub/well in the locker. Technically not compliant, but functionally compliant.

What's the thinking with requiring top-opening locker even on an open deck?

PeterView attachment 130859

i've looked at the document from abyc and i think they just didn't really address all of the potential locker or storage options like on an open deck. i think it's safer to just adopt a standard that they know will be as safe as possible and just stick with it. common sense tells us that the locker with the well, and a gasketed door, vented outboard will be about as safe as anything as long as it's maintained in good order. it just doesn't comply with abyc.
i've recently gone over my whole system to be sure it is in fact in compliance. just for my own piece of mind.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

Question: vertical propane lockers are disallowed, even if in an open flybridge. Why? Attached pics are fron Steve Ds article and noted that retrofitting compliance can be challenging. Suppose the vent on the left pic were sealed/removed and the locker vented outboard. The hatch door is high creating a tub/well in the locker. Technically not compliant, but functionally compliant.

What's the thinking with requiring top-opening locker even on an open deck?

PeterView attachment 130859

The thinking is a leak in the locker has to go out the dedicated drain, outboard/overboard, whereas with a vertical door it can leak out the door, which may provide a leak path into the vessel.

Doing away with he door louver would be good, but it would still be non-compliant.

 

[Nick F]

The thinking is a leak in the locker has to go out the dedicated drain, outboard/overboard, whereas with a vertical door it can leak out the door, which may provide a leak path into the vessel.

.

So, Steve, can you suggest how an on-upper-deck propane locker could be vented in compliance with ABYC?

Would a vent hose have to be led down into the interior of the vessel and then to an above waterline thru-hull?

OR,

would the vent hose would have to extend directly from the locker out over the side of the vessel some distance - 1 foot?

 

[Steve DAntonio]

So, Steve, can you suggest how an on-upper-deck propane locker could be vented in compliance with ABYC?

Would a vent hose have to be led down into the interior of the vessel and then to an above waterline thru-hull?

OR,

would the vent hose would have to extend directly from the locker out over the side of the vessel some distance - 1 foot?

These are often vented outboard, and so the outlet of the drain meets the minimum distance requirements from an opening to the cabin/hull. The vent hose could be, but does not need to be, routed inside the vessel. Obviously that should be avoided if possible.

 

[SteveK]

a GB 36 (will probably) has the under port seat propane locker which is directly above the stove and also the salon window that opens. The locker drains to the CB deck and then aft where there is no opening into the salon.

 

[Cigatoo]

a GB 36 (will probably) has the under port seat propane locker which is directly above the stove and also the salon window that opens. The locker drains to the CB deck and then aft where there is no opening into the salon.

The propane locker on our 36 has no drains running out / over the side. There are rain gutters that run along the side of the flybridge / under the locker. (See red arrows)This is the low point of the locker. Any leaked propane should probably run along the gutters and over the back side of the flybridge. There is 1 non opening window at the rear of the house. From there it should run down the Flybridge steps and into the rain gutter on the side decks and then overboard. Not a perfect setup. Probably not ABYC compliant but seems pretty safe overall.

 

[SteveK]

That is how mine is as well. Aft above a closed/sealed window