Propane tank - best location?

[Lepke]

I'm not much of a cook, but I know gas is easy to cook with. But, I don't think it has a place inside a boat hull or any tightly enclosed space.

 

[BruceK]

The only thing that in my mind would save you from installing a detector is taking the propane off the boat....

System works fine Kev, but thanks for the input.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. L. "...I don't think it has a place inside a boat hull..." I think the same argument complete with photos could be made for a gasoline powered vessel. With proper safeguards and practices propane can safely be used on a vessel IMO. That's pretty well what this thread is all about. NOT being stupid, blasé or irresponsible goes a long way to one's longevity.

 

[Insequent]

I had to make a new propane locker. The PO used the space under the port side seat on the flybridge. Problem was it had a 75mm hole into the interior for wiring, and propane line, and he also installed two 120VAC circuit breakers in the propane locker.

So we used the starboard side seat on the flybridge to make a new locker. It holds 3 x 20lb cylinders. It was made to comply with both the guidelines LouT and others have noted plus the Queensland regs. The key addition was that the drain must be at least 1", those 1/2" water drains are not enough.

In Queensland you need a gas certificate to be able to register your boat, and to sell it. They are a bit anal about it, but safety is good.

For imported used boats finding a licenced gasfitter to give you a certificate can be a problem. The rules are strict and their licence is on the line so they they will not take shortcuts. I knew of the issues when doing my refit while the boat was in the USA, so I ensured the the new propane line we used had AusNZ standard compliance stamp on it. Even then I had to replace my new USA regulators and solenoid cutout with local ones that had the relevant Aust/NZ standard compliance labels.

Initially I was going to install a domestic cooktop/oven combo, but all the ones I found, even with 'no flame cutouts', were labelled 'not for marine use'. So a somewhat expensive 3 burner Eno marine cooktop went in....

I have two detectors wired into the solenoid cutout unit. One is in the galley beneath the cooktop, the other is at the ER entry door. They are quite sensitive. If I use some solvents for cleaning off glue or similar, or insect killer that has hydrocarbon propellant, then the alarm goes off. At times this is annoying but on balance it is good to know that any inflammable vapours are going to be detected.

 

[Lou_tribal]

I was looking at my list of things to get for my setup and came to a question. Is there a reason why solenoid valve are so expensive. Up here it is around 100 to 150 $ each. Am I the only who find that expensive for what it is?

 

[SkipperofEllen]

Hi,

I would use copper tubing and only use rubber for the first/last 3-4 feet.

 

[psneeld]

I was looking at my list of things to get for my setup and came to a question. Is there a reason why solenoid valve are so expensive. Up here it is around 100 to 150 $ each. Am I the only who find that expensive for what it is?

Here is what was recommended by a professional marine installer (not sure if it was CMS or not)..... $25

AFC High Pressure Multi-Purpose Shutt-Off Valve model 151

I bought 2 and have one as a spare as I wasn't sure how long they would last in the marine environment.

So far 4 years.

 

[psneeld]

Hi,

I would use copper tubing and only use rubber for the first/last 3-4 feet.

Usually only required for gimbaled stoves, but seems like it would still meet ABYC standards if kept reasonably short.

A-1.9.5.6 Fuel supply lines shall be continuous lengths
of tubing, piping, or hose from the regulating device,
solenoid valve, or leak detector to the appliance, or to the
flexible section at the appliance.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. SoE. Welcome aboard. I think the accepted recommendation for propane appliance installation is a continuous hose/pipe from the tank to the appliance.
Mr. ps. Beat me to it.

 

[Lou_tribal]

Greetings,
Mr. SoE. Welcome aboard. I think the accepted recommendation for propane appliance installation is a continuous hose/pipe from the tank to the appliance.
Mr. ps. Beat me to it.

Yes continuous to the appliance but the last section on the appliance must be flexible to reduce risk of leak due to vibration on rigid pipe. So in other word continuous but with a connection to a flexible hose

 

[tadhana]

It is the standard of American boat builders today to use hose for the entire length from regulator to the appliance. A very few boat builders do use copper pipe and they will have a flexible section at the appliance end of the delivery system. ABYC does not allow any fittings or junctions in the fuel delivery line from the time it leaves the bottle enclosure to the appliance, with the exception obviously of a fitting to connect a flexible section at the appliance to a copper line.

ABYC A-1 1.9.5.6 Fuel supply lines shall be continuous lengths of tubing, piping, or hose from the regulating device, solenoid valve, or leak detector to the appliance, or to the flexible section at the appliance.

 

[High Wire]

What many surveyors, and others miss, is that each ABYC standard as an effectivity date. For instance: "A-1 MARINE LIQUEFIED PETROLEUM GAS (LPG) SYSTEMS
Based on ABYC's assessment of the existing technology, and the problems associated with achieving the goals of this standard, ABYC recommends compliance with this standard for all systems and associated equipment manufactured and/or installed after July 31, 2014."

ABYC knows that it is impossible/impractical to bring old boats up to new standards. In certain systems, such as propane systems an insurance surveyor may recommend that the system be brought up to the latest standard. That is a reasonable request on most boats. But to bring the Electrical system on a 1980 Chris Craft up to the 2016 standards is impossible. To bring a 1990 diesel fuel tank label up to the 2016 standard is impossible.

Any experienced surveyor understands that the boat is built to the standards in effect at the time it was built. The USCG regulations also say the same thing. Boats must be in compliance with the regulations on the date they were built. There are a lot of 1960's outboard runabouts still gonig strong, but they do not have the built in flotation required by current law.

Think of it this way. When building codes change do we go back and change every existing house? No. When auto safety standards change do we go back and change every existing automobile? No.

I'm going though an insurance survey now. Everything was fine until we got to the original 1984 propane tank installation. The words "illegal installation" came up. I have not seen the written report yet but I want to be ready.

So my question is where exactly can I point to those blue words above?

 

[FoxtrotCharlie]

Had the same issue with a surveyor - he pointed it out as a 'defective' in the survey. Sent survey to insurance company - never heard a word from them, and insurance policy is in force. Of course I plan to install a correct propane locker within the first year

 

[Comodave]

It depends on the insurance company. Some will make you fix it some don’t care.

 

[tadhana]

You are correct, a boat must be built to the standards in effect on the date of manufacture. ABYC standards are not retroactive. BUT an insurance company is within its rights to specify that the propane system be brought up to date. That is a relatively easy update. If you have a 1984 boat with an electric stove, and you decide in 2018 to switch to propane, the propane system date of manufacture is 2018 and that is the standard you must use. On the other hand , your system is not illegal. Illegal means it does not comply with the law, There is no law which applies to propane systems on boats. It is a standard. So your boat might be out of compliance with some standard, but the laws relating to boat building are few and far between. There is no law regarding boatpropane systems.

 

[caltexflanc]

There is no law regarding boat propane systems.

Other than the laws of survival. Why not upgrade to modern safety standards if you can? They were developed as a result of learning from disasters.

 

[dhays]

Other than the laws of survival. Why not upgrade to modern safety standards if you can? They were developed as a result of learning from disasters.

There are all kinds of upgrades to our boats that we could make to improve safety and many of them are on "the list". However, the OP is trying to avoid being unable to use the boat as it has been for the past 30 years because of the wording in the survey.

 

[tiltrider1]

There is safe and there are ABYC standards. In most cases I don’t see how to get to safe with out being in compliance with the current ABYC standards. I would not have propane on a boat with out sniffers. Yet if you turn the valve off at the bottle when not in the act of using propane how can it be un safe. Some one is going to say the bottle valve could leak but I have never seen this happen. I am not saying it’s ok to leave the valve on as long as you are on the boat only when in the act of using the propane. I don’t really buy into this because it’s too easy to forget to turn the valve off.

Propane bottle storage. ABYC standard calls out for a vented sealed locker. The venting has several requirements. Now this would be completely unnecessary if your propane bottle lived on a swim step. While ABYC makes no allowances for anything else, there are plenty of options here that are safe. ABYC has to take a position of safe in all cases, not a position that is safe on some boats, a surveyor can take a position of Safe and to year of manufacture or not safe regardless of year of manufacture.

 

[tadhana]

Actually, ABYC requires that you be able to shut the fuel off at the storage locker from any appliance in the system. So most boats have a solenoid valve. ABYC does not require a locker per-se. The bottle bust be protected from damage and located in a location where leaking gas can only flow overboard. So a swim platform storage could be OK "A- 1.7.6.1.1 The cylinder shall be installed in a dedicated locker meeting the requirements of A-1.8. EXCEPTION: LPG cylinders installed on the exterior of the boat where escaping gases will flow directly overboard."

 

[FF]

"I don’t really buy into this because it’s too easy to forget to turn the valve off."

When installing propane with a sniffer and solenoid , a red light when the stove is switched on , plus a hand operated timer makes for a safer install.

We used rubber hose from end to end and the hose is passed thru old Hyd hose in cabinets or lockers.

The place that sells the new USCG approved hose will usually have pile of old hyd hose you can recycle.

 

[tadhana]

Since it is virtually impossible to comply with ABYC safety standard 1.7.3 with a manual shut off valve at the cylinder inside the locker, most boats have electric solenoid valves at each appliance.

A-1.7 CYLINDERS, VALVES, AND SAFETY DEVICES 1.7.1 Cylinders used in LPG systems shall meet applicable DOT regulations or ASME requirements.
1.7.2 Each appliance shall be served by a separate low pressure, (i.e., 14 in water column [3.5 kPa]), regulated supply line that shall originate inside the cylinder locker or protective enclosure.
1.7.3 A readily accessible manual or electrically operated (e.g., solenoid) shutoff valve shall be installed in the low or high-pressure line at the fuel supply (see A-1.7.6.1 for valve location requirements).
1.7.3.1 The valve(s) or its control shall be operable in the vicinity of the appliance(s) in the event of a fire at any appliance(s). If the cylinder shutoff valve is readily accessible from the vicinity of the appliance, the shutoff valve on the supply line is not required.
1.7.3.1.1 The valve or its control shall be operable without reaching over the top of any open flame appliance (e.g., cooking appliance burners).
1.7.4 In addition to the valve required at the cylinder, a multiple cylinder system shall be provided with a shutoff valve, or automatic check valve, at the cylinder manifold so that each cylinder can be isolated from pressure feedback from other cylinders.

Note: there is no USCG approved hose. The USCG has no specifications on the hose. ABYC requires as follows:
A-1.9 FUEL LINES
1.9.1 As installed, the fuel supply line system and its components shall be compatible with LPG, and shall withstand the stresses and exposure of the marine environment.
1.9.2 LPG fuel supply line shall comply with the construction, performance, manufacturing, and production test, and marking requirements of UL 21, LP Gas Hose or
1.9.2.1 be corrosion resistant metallic tubing such as annealed copper tubing, standard type, Grade K or L, conforming to ASTM B88-75a, Specifications for Seamless Copper Water Tube , with a wall thickness of not less than 0.032 in (0.813 mm).

 

[boatpoker]

Surveyors have been taking a beating in this thread and as a surveyor I don't completely disagree with the complaints. I survey to ABYC Standards and make that clear to everyone that hires me. If you don't like that, I keep a list on my website of the other 250 surveyors in Ontario. The recommendations in my survey reports clearly state those required by law, Those that are voluntary standards (NFPA, ABYC, ABS, SAE etc., and those that are my opinion. From there it's up to the insurer to decide.

I find that the vast majority of insurers do not even read the reports, they simply flip to the valuation and write a policy. Boat US is a noted exception as they seem to have people that not only read the reports but even understand them. I've had a couple of calls from them over the years asking for clarification.

We all agree that there are many (a majority ?) of pretty pathetic surveyors out there and their very existence is due to the the underwriters accepting their pathetic reports. The insurance companies could rid the industry of these charlatans within a couple of months if they stopped accepting their drivel.

Of course most surveyors feel compelled to write reports to some kind of standard and ABYC is it. Much of this is just CYA but I personally believe that ABYC has great value.

I find it a little strange that in the US this CYA is so resented as it is a natural by product of the most litigious society on earth. The Kohler generator suit is a perfect example. The surveyor reported that the generator exhaust manifold was corroded and it should not be used until repaired. The new owner ignored the advice (he got insurance from a company that did not read the report) and several family members expired from CO poisoning.
The estate sued the yacht manufacturer, the marina, the yacht broker, Kohler and the surveyor.

After spending 300k defending himself the surveyor was eventually dropped from the suit but had lost everything he owned. There is always another side to the story.

 

[dhays]

Surveyors have been taking a beating in this thread and as a surveyor I don't completely disagree with the complaints. I survey to ABYC Standards and make that clear to everyone that hires me. If you don't like that, I keep a list on my website of the other 250 surveyors in Ontario. The recommendations in my survey reports clearly state those required by law, Those that are voluntary standards (NFPA, ABYC, ABS, SAE etc., and those that are my opinion. From there it's up to the insurer to decide.

As someone who pays for surveys, I want a surveyor to tell me about the condition and value of the boat. Part of that is to call out items that don’t meet state and federal requirements and items that are a clear safety risk. In addition, I want to know any recommendations that the surveyor may have that would improve the safety and performance.

On my current boat’s survey, the surveyor called out two items that needed to be corrected immediately. My insurance company allowed me to the move the boat to my home port, but didn’t allow the boat to be used until those items were corrected. The insurance company didn’t care about the other very good recommendations that the surveyor made in his report. To me, the system worked great. I benefited from the surveyors expertise. The Insurance company ensured that the boat was a good risk. The lender as assured that it was a good financial risk.

The key was how the surveyor wrote the report. He was very clear about those two items that needed to be corrected (propane leak and non-functional starboard running light). He was equally clear about the recommendations which would bring the boat up to current ABYC standards. Being clear, there was no issue with the insurance company (BoatUS) who read the report and only issued a restricted policy until those two items were resolved.

 

[psneeld]

It's nice when it works, not so when it doesn't.

Like the old saying about...... how it's less about what you say, but how you say it....

.....and in this case...how the insurance ompany interprets it.