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05-10-2017, 03:33 PM
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#1
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Guru
City: Miami Florida
Vessel Name: Possum
Vessel Model: Ellis 28
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,307
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New Rule Bilge Pumps
Rule just announced a new series of pumps to replace the small pump series they've been selling for about thirty years.
I think the biggest change is that they have incorporated a check valve to prevent back flow. Until now, check valves could cause airlocks. Rule has engineered a way to prevent that.
The discharge nozzle is removable allowing you to easily clean or replace the valve. You can also change the hose size or switch to a 90 degree discharge.
This is Charlie Tilders talking to West Marine about the new pumps.
Of course you should buy them from my old company, Hopkins Carter Marine, not West.
__________________
Parks Masterson
Retired from Hopkins-Carter Marine Supply
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05-10-2017, 03:41 PM
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#2
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Valued Technical Contributor
City: Litchfield, Ct
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 6,784
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Interesting that they now install a check valve inside the pump. Air locking was never one of my objections to having a check valve in the pump discharge. Sticking and plugging up was. Sounds like it is easier to clear a stuck check valve with the new pump, but that might be too late ;-).
David
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05-10-2017, 03:54 PM
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#3
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Guru
City: Gig Harbor
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 9,046
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djmarchand
Interesting that they now install a check valve inside the pump. Air locking was never one of my objections to having a check valve in the pump discharge. Sticking and plugging up was. Sounds like it is easier to clear a stuck check valve with the new pump, but that might be too late ;-).
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My concern with a check valve, like yours, has always been the issue of potentially sticking. Most of the time this was a check valve that was added to the discharge hose. Maybe they have found a way to make the incorporated check valve safer?
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05-10-2017, 04:00 PM
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#4
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Guru
City: Powell River, BC
Vessel Name: Northern Spy
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 26
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,075
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This makes sense and keeps everyone happy in the litigious US. This way the pump manufacturer can still give a rated capacity as the flow coefficient (Cv) of the check valve is a known variable.
Doubt many boat builders or system designers use fluid flow design/modeling software for bilge pumping systems (or probably any pumping system on board.
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05-10-2017, 04:18 PM
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#5
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Senior Member
City: Buffalo
Vessel Name: Almost Perfect
Vessel Model: Kadey-Krogen 48
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 232
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They say they have solved the air locking problem by drilling two little holes in the pump body to let the air out. Could I not do the same with an old style pump? Anybody tried this?
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05-10-2017, 04:32 PM
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#6
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Guru
City: Miami River
Vessel Name: Gotcha
Vessel Model: Grand Banks. Heritage. 54
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,988
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Park
You usually get all my marine expense money (or your old company did). Hope all is going well for you and the guys and gals.
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05-10-2017, 04:47 PM
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#7
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Guru
City: Powell River, BC
Vessel Name: Northern Spy
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 26
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,075
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossland
They say they have solved the air locking problem by drilling two little holes in the pump body to let the air out. Could I not do the same with an old style pump? Anybody tried this?
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You probably could, but would only need to if you have a check valve or a dip in the hose greater than the hose diameter downstream of the pump.
What happens, is that the trapped water creates a high discharge head. Centrifugal pumps move fluid by radially impelling the mass of fluid through the volute increasing the velocity and static head. If there is no mass of liquid to move, it remains airbound and fails to generate enough head to open the check valve or clear the low spot in the discharge.
By drilling a vent hole it allows the volute to vent and if there is enough water in the inlet or adequate net positive suction head, the pump will "self prime" (kind of). The vent hole slightly decreases efficiency. In more complex systems, automated vents or even a vacuum priming system is placed on the volute.
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05-10-2017, 04:59 PM
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#8
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Guru
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,181
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Jabsco will not get another nickel of my money for the junk that they make
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05-10-2017, 05:29 PM
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#9
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Guru
City: Pender Harbour, BC
Vessel Name: Gwaii Haanas
Vessel Model: Custom Aluminum 52
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,791
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I agree! What a POS that is. After 30 years, that's the best they can do?
__________________
Don't believe everything that you think.
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05-10-2017, 05:55 PM
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#10
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Guru
City: Miami Florida
Vessel Name: Possum
Vessel Model: Ellis 28
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,307
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Thanks Bigfish.
Dave, They are using a valve similar to the discharge valves used in marine toilets. They won't get stuck closed. If they get something holding them open the only thing that will happen is you'll get a hose full of back flow to your bilge. They actually put these same valves in their Low Profile pumps that have been on the market for a couple of years now with no problems.
For those who don't want a check valve in the line, just take it out.
__________________
Parks Masterson
Retired from Hopkins-Carter Marine Supply
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05-10-2017, 06:00 PM
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#11
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Guru
City: Gig Harbor
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 9,046
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopCar
Thanks Bigfish.
Dave, They are using a valve similar to the discharge valves used in marine toilets. They won't get stuck closed. If they get something holding them open the only thing that will happen is you'll get a hose full of back flow to your bilge. They actually put these same valves in their Low Profile pumps that have been on the market for a couple of years now with no problems.
For those who don't want a check valve in the line, just take it out.
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Thanks. I have a couple spots where a check valve incorporated in the pump would be really nice.
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05-10-2017, 06:21 PM
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#12
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Guru
City: hawaii
Vessel Name: #31
Vessel Model: ex-Navy MUB 50 fish/cruise
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 873
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My big gripe with small bilge pumps is that the tiny shafts can corrode rapidly in the presence of salt water with a bit of stray current thrown in. They never provide a ground or bonding connection to protect against this, and although the impeller can be completely disconnected from the motor, it will still show proper function at the idiot light panel while it cannot pump a drop.
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You can lead a horse to water,
But you can't make him ski...
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05-10-2017, 06:38 PM
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#13
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Guru
City: kemah
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 1,135
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Where might I find them on the website? I could use one of them.
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05-10-2017, 07:02 PM
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#14
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Guru
City: Miami River
Vessel Name: Gotcha
Vessel Model: Grand Banks. Heritage. 54
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,988
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So I need to know why a check valve in the line is risky because it may freeze and not allow the pump to do its job, so why is this different (check valve in the pump and not in the line)?
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05-10-2017, 09:19 PM
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#15
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Guru
City: Powell River, BC
Vessel Name: Northern Spy
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 26
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,075
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I have no issue with a check valve if used as a back flow device. I do have an issue if it is used as an anti siphon device.
This was an interesting thread:
http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=29884
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05-11-2017, 12:25 AM
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#16
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Guru
City: Miami Florida
Vessel Name: Possum
Vessel Model: Ellis 28
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,307
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Bigfish, it's a different type of check valve than you usually see installed in bilge pump discharge lines. I don't think there is anyway it could fail in the closed position. They are using a joker valve just like in marine toilets.
What Barnacles, I don't think they are shipping them yet. They just won an award at the big boat builders trade show ( Ibex) but it will be a few months before they hit store shelves.
__________________
Parks Masterson
Retired from Hopkins-Carter Marine Supply
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05-11-2017, 07:09 AM
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#17
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Valued Technical Contributor
City: Litchfield, Ct
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 6,784
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Defender has 500, 800 and 1,100 gph models available to order right now.
David
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05-11-2017, 07:20 AM
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#18
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Senior Member
City: Baltimore, MD
Vessel Name: Starshine
Vessel Model: 1989 Bayliner 3288
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 366
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The West Marine down the street from my marina has them in 500 GPM.
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05-11-2017, 07:44 AM
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#19
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Guru
City: Miami River
Vessel Name: Gotcha
Vessel Model: Grand Banks. Heritage. 54
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,988
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Parks
We know how well joker valves work. I'll let someone else try them. BTW my bilges are dry and the pumps never operate.
Thanks.
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05-11-2017, 09:21 AM
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#20
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Guru
City: Vermont
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 10,092
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I'd have a real hard time ever buying another Rule pump. They went to sh%*t after ITT bought them with every pump I bought from them failing. ITT also bought Jabsco, and then spun the whole pump business out as Xylem.
Whale, for what its worth, has had such a pump for some time, and the work reliably.
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