Need lockable y-valve in US Waters?

[BrentwoodBayliner]

Hello wise ones..
I am a Canadian boater (Vancouver Island) doing a major refit on a 1981 Bayliner 3270 and have a question or three..

My current plumbing setup includes a Y-valve to send the toilet outflow either directly overboard, or into the holding tank. I am replacing the factory 12-gal holding tank with a custom 30-gallon one. The tank can currently either be emptied by pump-out deck fitting, or by activating the macerator pump and sending it over the side (above the waterline thru-hull).

I cannot imagine a situation where I would want to send waste immediately over the side, without going through the holding tank first, so like many other owners, I am considering removing the Y-valve in the new set-up.

I think this is okay in Canada, but I understand if I want to cruise US waters, I need a way to 'lock' the system so I can't discharge thru the macerator pump.

The current Y-valve is a lockable Jabsco type, but even when locked, it currently won't prevent me from emptying the holding tank through the macerator.

So here are three questions -
1. Does my current factory setup meet US criteria, even though the lockable Y-valve doesn't actually prevent me from discharging anywhere?
2. Will my NEW setup (with no lockable Y-valve) meet US criteria?
3. If not, what can I do to make it possible to cruise US waters? Something lockable in-line to the macerator pump?

Thank you in advance for your input! .. and output!

 

[rslifkin]

Ziptie the macerator seacock closed and you should be fine.

 

[BrentwoodBayliner]

Thanks! Because the thru-hull fitting is above the waterline, there is currently no seacock there. But maybe adding a lockable one, just before the thru-hull fitting, might solve the problem?

 

[johnrupp]

I have a later model of the same boat. Lock the y valve in the tank position. You’ll be fine. You can also remove the fuse for the macerator if you want.

John

 

[twistedtree]

Thanks! Because the thru-hull fitting is above the waterline, there is currently no seacock there. But maybe adding a lockable one, just before the thru-hull fitting, might solve the problem?

So the poop pumps out above the waterline? I've never heard of that before. All I have seen are below the water line. I wonder if it was a retrofit, using whatever thruhull that was available?


But that's really an aside. I don't recall the exact language, but and means of direct discharge (direct from a toilet, our pumping out the holding tank) needs to be "secured". A pad lock is great, but a zip tie is acceptable too as described by rslifkin. You can also remove the valve handle and stow it somewhere. That's what I did a few boats ago. It's a bit less clear, but I think a lockable pump control is also acceptable. This is how my last two boats have been set up using a Sealand control with key switch. When in regulated waters, I just remove and and stow the key.

 

[Lou_tribal]

Depending where you are in Canada this is not a correct setup.
If you are navigating in inland waters, like Rideau waterway, requirement is to have overboard hose disconnected and plugged.
While this is not really checked this is the rule for what I know.

L

 

[rslifkin]

In general, in the US, the idea is that you'd have to make more than 1 deliberate action to discharge waste. So cutting a ziptie, opening the valve and then turning on the pump would qualify, particularly if the switch isn't next to the valve.

 

[johnrupp]

So the poop pumps out above the waterline? I've never heard of that before. All I have seen are below the water line. I wonder if it was a retrofit, using whatever thruhull that was available?


But that's really an aside. I don't recall the exact language, but and means of direct discharge (direct from a toilet, our pumping out the holding tank) needs to be "secured". A pad lock is great, but a zip tie is acceptable too as described by rslifkin. You can also remove the valve handle and stow it somewhere. That's what I did a few boats ago. It's a bit less clear, but I think a lockable pump control is also acceptable. This is how my last two boats have been set up using a Sealand control with key switch. When in regulated waters, I just remove and and stow the key.

From the factory. Macerator, direct discharge and shower sump thruhulls are in a row above the boot stripe.

John

 

[jimdavi]

Mine is zip-tied.

 

[oscar]

In general, in the US, the idea is that you'd have to make more than 1 deliberate action to discharge waste. So cutting a ziptie, opening the valve and then turning on the pump would qualify, particularly if the switch isn't next to the valve.

So in my case that would be find the handle, put it on, put the screw on, go get a screw driver, tighten it and open the valve. Check.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

I have a similar setup. Pump overboard directly, pump into a tank or pump the tank overboard via a macerator pump, or pumped out at the dock..

When you state U.S. waters I am assuming you mean Puget Sound. Currently Puget Sound is a No Dump Zone (NDZ) kinda. Currently the NDZ is in court and placed on hold.

When it gets fully implemented, the "Y" valve needs to be locked in the tank position. Zip tie is acceptable. Then if you have a macerator the "Circuit Breaker" needs to be "Off" and safety wired closed.

Good Luck.

 

[SoWhat]

Depending where you are in Canada this is not a correct setup.
If you are navigating in inland waters, like Rideau waterway, requirement is to have overboard hose disconnected and plugged.
While this is not really checked this is the rule for what I know.

Lake Champlain requires OB discharge to be disconnected. Expect to see more of this (even though waste treatment plants dump millions of gallons of raw sewage during every rainstorm)

I am in the midst of redesigning my system and will attempt to put in a PVC union that can be removed and then capped. A zip tied Y valve is currently adequate for 95% of the US cruising areas.

 

[MYTraveler]

As I understand the regs, it isn't just the valve from the holding tank that needs to be locked, but in OP's case, also the Y-valve that permits discharge directly from the head. My boat also came with Y-valves permitting direct discharge from the head (ie, bypassing the holding tank altogether), but since there is virtually no circumstance in which I would do that, they are all zip-tied to discharge to the holding tank. (I suppose that if my holding tank pump broke (I do carry a spare), and if I were offshore fishing the Baha ridge, I might direct the heads overboard.)

 

[FF]

Put a keyed electrical switch in the macerator circuit and only the captain has the key.


Cole Hersey has marine units.

 

[JohnEasley]

I have been boarded by the US Coast Guard for inspections, both by my request and at their request for training purposes. As they explained to me, they want to see your overboard discharge set up in such a way that it cannot accidentally be triggered. Padlocking or zip-tying the Y valve, closing and removing the seacock handle (if equipped with one), disconnecting the overboard discharge hose, installing a key switch in the macerator power wire, or even putting a plastic cover over the panel breaker for the macerator are all acceptable approaches. In my case, I had an inexpensive plastic cover over the macerator breaker. Each time, the Coastie looked at it and said, "Good to go." The point is, it doesn't have to be an expensive or complicated solution.

 

[psneeld]

I have been boarded by the US Coast Guard for inspections, both by my request and at their request for training purposes. As they explained to me, they want to see your overboard discharge set up in such a way that it cannot accidentally be triggered. Padlocking or zip-tying the Y valve, closing and removing the seacock handle (if equipped with one), disconnecting the overboard discharge hose, installing a key switch in the macerator power wire, or even putting a plastic cover over the panel breaker for the macerator are all acceptable approaches. In my case, I had an inexpensive plastic cover over the macerator breaker. Each time, the Coastie looked at it and said, "Good to go." The point is, it doesn't have to be an expensive or complicated solution.

If an above the waterline discharge with no seacock...then the best is a multi-electrical disabling approach. If below the water with a seacock, secure that seacock in addition to any 2 step electrical discharge approaches and you are really good to go.

 

[LenBuchanan]

In Great Lakes, you must have the discharge actually be disconnected so there is no way to actually pump over the side. With a zip-tie or with a padlock, you can remove, pump, then either re-lock or put a new zip-tie on. I purchased a boat in New Jersey and with electric toilets, each of which could pump over the side and a mascerator discharge pump on the holding tank. I actually cut the lines and plugged them all off.

It is also illegal in Great Lakes Canadian waters to have a porti-potti. They don't want the ability to be able to dump into the water or on land.

 

[psneeld]

In Great Lakes, you must have the discharge actually be disconnected so there is no way to actually pump over the side. With a zip-tie or with a padlock, you can remove, pump, then either re-lock or put a new zip-tie on. I purchased a boat in New Jersey and with electric toilets, each of which could pump over the side and a mascerator discharge pump on the holding tank. I actually cut the lines and plugged them all off.

It is also illegal in Great Lakes Canadian waters to have a porti-potti. They don't want the ability to be able to dump into the water or on land.

I get the regs...but still so shortsighted and there are so many ways to beat the system.


The 90% that care won't...the 10% that don't have an easy way.


But yes..some places require to disconnect and I respect that...yet is is as weak as any other requirement.

 

[SteveK]

Thanks! Because the thru-hull fitting is above the waterline, there is currently no seacock there. But maybe adding a lockable one, just before the thru-hull fitting, might solve the problem?

Can you consider some re plumbing?
Eliminate the 'Y' valve and send all to the holding tank always. Then move the discharge hose to the valved through hull. Add a breather line from top of holding tank to thru hull without valve. Extra air helps.
To pump out either from deck or overboard, but you not only have to turn on the macerator, you also have to open the through hull which is zip tied until such use.

 

[Bill V]

As my boat had only a key switch to disable the macerator I installed a Y valve during a remodel I completed. Even though I had a key switch and the Y valve set for pump out only the Coast Guard told me during an inspection that the Y valve needs to be zip tied to pump out position. This particular "Coastie" told me the key switch means nothing to him. It's all subjective I guess.

 

[psneeld]

As my boat had only a key switch to disable the macerator I installed a Y valve during a remodel I completed. Even though I had a key switch and the Y valve set for pump out only the Coast Guard told me during an inspection that the Y valve needs to be zip tied to pump out position. This particular "Coastie" told me the key switch means nothing to him. It's all subjective I guess.

Depends on the key switch and plumbing. If the key switch operates the only way to pump overboard, it has been recognized by the USCG....even if the particular boarding officer doesn't recognize it...manufacturer's under the scrutiny of the USCG have gotten the word it is OK if that the macerator is the only way to pump overboard.


If the head can go directly overboard before the Y valve, then yes it needs to be secured to the holding tank position.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

As they explained to me, they want to see your overboard discharge set up in such a way that it cannot accidentally be triggered. Padlocking or zip-tying the Y valve, closing and removing the seacock handle (if equipped with one), disconnecting the overboard discharge hose, installing a key switch in the macerator power wire, or even putting a plastic cover over the panel breaker for the macerator are all acceptable approaches.

Although they would like to see a zip tie or the valves locked out, it is NOT required unless you are in a NDZ.

 

[psneeld]

Although they would like to see a zip tie or the valves locked out, it is NOT required unless you are in a NDZ.

Within 3 NM of the US coast and variations locally on that and the overboard underwater discharge that has a seacock on it (or should) has t be wire wired or some other several step method of preventing overboard discharge.


NDZ is only a part of that ruling.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Within 3 NM of the US coast and variations locally on that and the overboard underwater discharge that has a seacock on it (or should) has t be wire wired or some other several step method of preventing overboard discharge.


NDZ is only a part of that ruling.

Understand the 3nm requirement, but that does not require any lockouts.

I have had this conversation with AUX and the real Coast Guard. Take a look on page 35 in the book (or page 19 in the PDF file) in the "A Boater's Guide to the Federal Requirements for Recreational Boats"

https://newcontent.westmarine.com/documents/pdfs/OwnersManuals/SAFETY/420.pdf

What am I missing? Understand there maybe some local requirements, but those are not enforced by the USCG. Correct?

 

[Brooksie]

I've always just kept my Y valve handle removed and on a hook in the hanging locker. Not that anyone has ever checked in over 40 years. Just another law that can't be properly enforced
I was "checked" in FL one time but I'm sure they were looking for something else b/c after putting dye tablets in the head, the guy never even pumped it. LOL

 

[psneeld]

Understand the 3nm requirement, but that does not require any lockouts.

I have had this conversation with AUX and the real Coast Guard. Take a look on page 35 in the book (or page 19 in the PDF file) in the "A Boater's Guide to the Federal Requirements for Recreational Boats"

https://newcontent.westmarine.com/documents/pdfs/OwnersManuals/SAFETY/420.pdf

What am I missing? Understand there maybe some local requirements, but those are not enforced by the USCG. Correct?

Probably nothing, guess I am wrong.


Have had a type 1 MSD for so long and used to locking the seacock in NDZs and marinas who also prohibit discharge that I forgot the actual law.

 

[kthoennes]

From the factory. Macerator, direct discharge and shower sump thruhulls are in a row above the boot stripe...

Really? Eew. Wouldn't that leave a -- dribble mark on your hull? Our shower sump discharge and sink discharges are above the waterline, but not the macerator. Huh, what do you know, learn something every day.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

On my trips north there are many times when I am more than 3nm off-shore. I take this opportunity to dump.

 

[BrentwoodBayliner]

Thank you everyone! I'm the OP on this thread. I appreciate your helpful responses, especially my American cousins!

By way of explanation, I am committed to removing the Y-valve because:
1. it's completely redundant - I would never need to discharge directly overboard without going through the holding tank and macerator first.
2. It eliminates 3 sets of hose-clamp connections (potential failure points)
3. It allows me to eliminate a combined 10 feet of 1.5" sanitary hose and all the associated smells from the trapped contents of the hoses

So the toilet outflow will ALWAYS go to the holding tank.. no Y-valve and therefore no need to zip-tie or lock it.

I will have the shortest possible hose between toilet and holding tank, and the shortest possible hose between holding tank and macerator pump.

And the discharge over the side can ONLY happen through the macerator pump, so all I really need to do in an NDZ is remove the fuse for the macerator.

KISS - I love it!

(And for those Bayliner 32 owners who replied.. I am also cutting the 'cave hatch' that so many of you have already done. And installing a custom-sized holding tank that's 30-gallons instead of the factory 12-gallon tank.)

 

[skyhawk]

eliminating 10 ft of hose sellsit....

Unlikely I know but you said never.... what if your tank is full and the macerator pump gives up?

Regardless, you could always have a spare pump and cleaning up the hose and fittings makes sense as a tradeoff for the unlikley....