Need lockable y-valve in US Waters?

[BDofMSP]

In Great Lakes, you must have the discharge actually be disconnected so there is no way to actually pump over the side. With a zip-tie or with a padlock, you can remove, pump, then either re-lock or put a new zip-tie on. I purchased a boat in New Jersey and with electric toilets, each of which could pump over the side and a mascerator discharge pump on the holding tank. I actually cut the lines and plugged them all off.

It is also illegal in Great Lakes Canadian waters to have a porti-potti. They don't want the ability to be able to dump into the water or on land.

Len can you point me to that reg? I'm not familiar with that. I've been USCG inspected 3 times on Lake Superior and having the handle to the macerator seacock was fine with them.

BD

 

[HeadMistress]

33 CFR 159.7 "Requirements for vessel operators" lists the acceptable means of "securing" the system:


(b) When operating a vessel on a body of water where the discharge of treated or untreated sewage is prohibited by the Environmental Protection Agency under 40 CFR 140.3 or 140.4, the operator must secure each Type I or Type II device in a manner which prevents discharge of treated or untreated sewage. Acceptable methods of securing the device include -
(1) Closing the seacock and removing the handle;
(2) Padlocking the seacock in the closed position;
(3) Using a non-releasable wire-tie to hold the seacock in the closed position; or
(4) Locking the door to the space enclosing the toilets with a padlock or door handle key lock.

(c) When operating a vessel on a body of water where the discharge of untreated sewage is prohibited by the Environmental Protection Agency under 40 CFR 140.3, the operator must secure each Type III device (holding tank) in a manner which prevents discharge of sewage. Acceptable methods of securing the device include -
(1) Closing each valve leading to an overboard discharge and removing the handle;
(2) Padlocking each valve leading to an overboard discharge in the closed position; or
(3) Using a non-releasable wire-tie to hold each valve leading to an overboard discharge in the closed position.

Macerator pumps that can be locked with a key didn't exist when this reg was created. However, they ARE another acceptable means of securing the system. Either the coastie who didn't accept it has an advanced case of Barney Fife syndrome or didn't get that memo.


It is also illegal in Great Lakes Canadian waters to have a porti-potti. They don't want the ability to be able to dump into the water or on land.

Although it's true that PORTABLE portapotties are illegal in Canadian waters, the "MSD" version that's designed to be permanently mounted and fitted for pumpout is considered legal. However the Canadians have always been pretty tolerant of US flagged vessels equipped with portable potties...I've never heard of a single US vessel being cited, or turned back at the border if on a trailer.

As for any requirement that all overboard sanitation plumbing be physically disconnected from any thru-hulls in the Great Lakes, that's only true on Lake Champlaine and only enforced on locally registered boats. In fact, I've never heard of a single "looper" who's ever even been inspected.

--Peggie

 

[BDofMSP]

Thanks Peggy, I agree about the Great Lakes. I've looked extensively and find plenty of posts from cruisers on forums saying that tanks need to be disconnected from thru hulls, but zero actual regulations stating that. The only exceptions I've found are Lake Champlain and the state of Maine (applying only to INLAND waters) but neither of these are Great Lakes.

As a side note, I removed my macerator last year (it was rusted out and leaking when the pumpout flowed through it) and I capped that tank outlet and also capped the thru hull. It will be easy to reconnect if the boat ownership ever leaves the Great Lakes again though.
BD

 

[backinblue]

My boat has no y valves, everything goes to the holding tank. In addition to the deck pumpout, there is a macerator and seacock for overboard discharge. The seacock handle has a red tab that slides down to keep it from moving from the locked position. (sorry no pics). To open it, you slide the tab up to allow the handle to move. At first I thought this is not acceptable, but now thinking about it it's not any different than a zip tie. It can't be opened accidentally. It takes a specific action by someone in order to open it. Thoughts?

 

[rgano]

In my case, I had an inexpensive plastic cover over the macerator breaker. Each time, the Coastie looked at it and said, "Good to go." The point is, it doesn't have to be an expensive or complicated solution.

I have installed a similar cover over my macerator breaker on the power panel because the overboard valve after the macerator is not easily zip tied. I drilled a small hole in the breaker cover to accomodate a small sized zip tie to further secure the system - it's a GREEN zip tie.

 

[FF]

A different solution could be plumb to the tank then to the deck fitting , no macerator, Y valves or thry hull plumbing.

As every boat can use a portable bulge pump an Edson on a board with proper fittings will pump about a gallon a stroke , nice when the dink is full of rainwater , as well as pumping the black tank.

https://edsonmarine.com/products/marine-pumps/emergency-pump-kits/

 

[saboga]

So, how many people have gone out beyond the 3-mile limit, then forgotten to open the thru-hull before running the macerator?

 

[IraJonesAMS]

Marine Sanitation Devices

You can go online to for Rules and Regulations for Recreational Boat
excerpts from the United States Code (USC) and the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR)
You'll find Marine Sanitation Devices at 33 CFR 159.7 & 33CFR151.57
Ira Jones SAMS AMS#1001 Serving Up State NY

 

[Brooksie]

The Canada Geese dump more on my lawn in a week than I do in the ocean in a year. Perhaps Trudeau will come rake my lawn & sweep my walks. LOL

 

[Senojev]

Actual Requirements for The Great Lakes (NDZ)

Unless I am mistaken this applies within the Great Lakes:



§ 159.7 Requirements for vessel operators. (a) No person may operate any vessel equipped with installed toilet facilities unless it is equipped with: (1) An operable Type II or III device that has a label on it under § 159.16 or that is certified under § 159.12 or § 159.12a; or (2) An operable Type I device that has a label on it under § 159.16 or that is certified under § 159.12, if the vessel is 19.7 meters (65 feet) or less in length. (b) When operating a vessel on a body of water where the discharge of treated or untreated sewage is prohibited by the Environmental Protection Agency under 40 CFR 140.3 or 140.4, the operator must secure each Type I or Type II device in a manner which prevents discharge of treated or untreated sew-age. Acceptable methods of securing the device include— (1) Closing the seacock and removing the handle; (2) Padlocking the seacock in the closed position; (3) Using a non-releasable wire-tie to hold the seacock in the closed position; or (4) Locking the door to the space enclosing the toilets with a padlock or door handle key lock. (c) When operating a vessel on a body of water where the discharge of un-treated sewage is prohibited by the Environmental Protection Agency under 40 CFR 140.3, the operator must secure each Type III device in a manner which prevents discharge of sewage. Acceptable methods of securing the device include— (1) Closing each valve leading to an overboard discharge and removing the handle; (2) Padlocking each valve leading to an overboard discharge in the closed position; or (3) Using a non-releasable wire-tie to hold each valve leading to an overboard discharge in the closed position. [CGH 95–028, 62 FR 51194, Sept. 30, 1997]



Disconnection is not required.

 

[Begorrah]

you cannot discharge in to USW waters, period. Zip tie your y valve so it won't5 discharge. You can still pump out at the pump out station

 

[psneeld]

you cannot discharge in to USW waters, period. Zip tie your y valve so it won't5 discharge. You can still pump out at the pump out station

USW waters??????

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

So, how many people have gone out beyond the 3-mile limit, then forgotten to open the thru-hull before running the macerator?

I have a special $5 bill for the mobile pumper at Friday Harbor when that happens. !!

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

you cannot discharge in to USW waters, period. Zip tie your y valve so it won't5 discharge. You can still pump out at the pump out station

Huh? You can 3nm offshore.

 

[Pcpete]

Can you consider some re plumbing?
Eliminate the 'Y' valve and send all to the holding tank always. Then move the discharge hose to the valved through hull. Add a breather line from top of holding tank to thru hull without valve. Extra air helps.
To pump out either from deck or overboard, but you not only have to turn on the macerator, you also have to open the through hull which is zip tied until such use.

That’s exactly what I did except adding a valve to the macerator hose, I put a failsafe cover over the toggle switch. The macerator is locked up and won’t work most of the time anyway.

 

[rgano]

With the extent of the replumbing being considered here, let me offer a solution the local boatyard came up with for my old Grand Banks which came to me without any sort of holding tank.

It seems that here where we have a lot of charter boats which operate at sea and need SIMPLE as an operating principle that holding tanks are critical infrastructure for hauling lubbers out on the big rolly. Macerator pumps and all their quirks and vulnerabilities are not valued. The solution to my new holding tank issue was to imitate the charter boat installations they had been doing.

The tank is installed such that a portion, maybe 30% is below the AT REST waterline. A 2-inch line direction out of the bottom of the tank is routed to a two-inch through-hull valve and seacock going through the bottom of the boat. The deck pumpout hose is teed off of this big line and run on up the the fitting on deck.

Once the boat is at sea, the through hull valve is opened. As the boat gathers speed and lifts up out of the water, the tank contents are sucked right out. To rinse the tank, the boat is slowed to a crawl, and water reenters the tank via the open seacock. Speeding up empties it again, and the valve is shut with an empty and rinsed tank.

 

[rslifkin]

The tank is installed such that a portion, maybe 30% is below the AT REST waterline. A 2-inch line direction out of the bottom of the tank is routed to a two-inch through-hull valve and seacock going through the bottom of the boat. The deck pumpout hose is teed off of this big line and run on up the the fitting on deck.

Once the boat is at sea, the through hull valve is opened. As the boat gathers speed and lifts up out of the water, the tank contents are sucked right out. To rinse the tank, the boat is slowed to a crawl, and water reenters the tank via the open seacock. Speeding up empties it again, and the valve is shut with an empty and rinsed tank.

That's a good trick. My only aversion to it would be that it requires use of a discharge fitting at the bottom of the tank. I personally prefer a dip tube to empty the tank, as it avoids having a permanently sewage-filled connection (less risk of leaks, smells, etc.).

 

[rgano]

That's a good trick. My only aversion to it would be that it requires use of a discharge fitting at the bottom of the tank. I personally prefer a dip tube to empty the tank, as it avoids having a permanently sewage-filled connection (less risk of leaks, smells, etc.).

I can see where that aspect might give pause, but my experience with it and the apparent success of the charter fishing fleet suggests it is not a real worrisome issue.

 

[koliver]

I can see where that aspect might give pause, but my experience with it and the apparent success of the charter fishing fleet suggests it is not a real worrisome issue.

Sailboat charters are also fitted out in a similar fashion. Both a 41' charter sailboat in Turkey and a friend's 37' sailboat had the entire height of the tank above the resting WL, so all that was required was to open the 1.5" valve below the tank and pump the head, so a little rinse water went through the valve.
I looked at adding a separate Black tank in an above WL location on my own boat, but the valve would have been inaccessible, so I haven't done it. If electrically operated valves were more reliable.....

 

[quinsky]

My boat did not have a Y valve so you could not pump directly overboard. Waste was pumped from the bowl to the holding tank via a macerator type head. To empty the tank, the thru hull had to be open and waste was pumped overboard via another macerator. No gravity drain. The USCG regulations require a Y-valve to be secured- they don't say anything about securing a thru hull valve, so I suspect I was in compliance. To be safe, I replaced the pumpout macerator switch with a keyed on/off switch. You can only activate it with the key.

 

[Peregrinator]

I have exact configuration proposed. I put a key operated switch in overboard maceration circuit.

 

[jgtrucking]

Len can you point me to that reg? I'm not familiar with that. I've been USCG inspected 3 times on Lake Superior and having the handle to the macerator seacock was fine with them.

BD

Yes lovking the seacock is fine. The canucks make you remove a section of the hose as well... and thats lake champlain and possibly the canals, not the canada side if the lakes.

 

[hmason]

How’s about disconnecting the power supply wire to the macerator pump? Easily reconnected when needed.

 

[Bacchus]

33 CFR 159.7 "Requirements for vessel operators" lists the acceptable means of "securing" the system:


(b) When operating a vessel on a body of water where the discharge of treated or untreated sewage is prohibited by the Environmental Protection Agency under 40 CFR 140.3 or 140.4, the operator must secure each Type I or Type II device in a manner which prevents discharge of treated or untreated sewage. Acceptable methods of securing the device include -
(1) Closing the seacock and removing the handle;
(2) Padlocking the seacock in the closed position;
(3) Using a non-releasable wire-tie to hold the seacock in the closed position; or
(4) Locking the door to the space enclosing the toilets with a padlock or door handle key lock.

(c) When operating a vessel on a body of water where the discharge of untreated sewage is prohibited by the Environmental Protection Agency under 40 CFR 140.3, the operator must secure each Type III device (holding tank) in a manner which prevents discharge of sewage. Acceptable methods of securing the device include -
(1) Closing each valve leading to an overboard discharge and removing the handle;
(2) Padlocking each valve leading to an overboard discharge in the closed position; or
(3) Using a non-releasable wire-tie to hold each valve leading to an overboard discharge in the closed position.

Macerator pumps that can be locked with a key didn't exist when this reg was created. However, they ARE another acceptable means of securing the system. Either the coastie who didn't accept it has an advanced case of Barney Fife syndrome or didn't get that memo.


It is also illegal in Great Lakes Canadian waters to have a porti-potti. They don't want the ability to be able to dump into the water or on land.

Although it's true that PORTABLE portapotties are illegal in Canadian waters, the "MSD" version that's designed to be permanently mounted and fitted for pumpout is considered legal. However the Canadians have always been pretty tolerant of US flagged vessels equipped with portable potties...I've never heard of a single US vessel being cited, or turned back at the border if on a trailer.

As for any requirement that all overboard sanitation plumbing be physically disconnected from any thru-hulls in the Great Lakes, that's only true on Lake Champlaine and only enforced on locally registered boats. In fact, I've never heard of a single "looper" who's ever even been inspected.

--Peggie

In the past I have dug extensively into NY regs and found exactly what Peggie has outlined. I dont believe there have been any recent changes.
There are lots of "myths " out there that get repeated by boaters but can't be found in the regs.
The only navigable waters with "disconnect" requirement in NY is Lake Champlain.

 

[jgtrucking]

Yes i hadnt seen peggie's response yet when i spoke up. Thats the most complete answer you can get on this read above