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Old 08-14-2021, 11:03 PM   #1
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Incinolet toilet practicality

How much additional power would a battery bank need to run a cycle of the toilet, when the toilet uses 1.5-2 Kwh/per? I do not know how to translate Kwh to Amps & Volts, altho I do know Watts = Amps x Volts. If you need more info, let me know. Basically, would you have an Incinolet on your boat?
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Old 08-15-2021, 12:33 AM   #2
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Something that needs 2kW for an hour is going to require 80 amps or more from a 24V
battery bank for that length of time. If it's powered by an inverter make that 100 amps.
I would call that a pretty heavy draw.
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Old 08-15-2021, 12:37 AM   #3
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Something that needs 2kW for an hour is going to require 80 amps or more from a
24 VDC battery bank for that length of time. I would call that a pretty heavy draw.
Thanks. I don't know how long it takes to burn the waste to ash, but I don't think it's an hour.
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Old 08-15-2021, 05:47 AM   #4
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According to the manual:


Electrical Preparation
This appliance has a 20-amp plug and is meant to fit only into a 20-amp
receptacle. (Fig. 4) If the outlet you intend to use for the INCINOLET is
not the proper type, then change the receptacle. You must have a circuit
suitable for 20 amps, headed by a 20-amp circuit breaker. Do not
attempt to defeat this safety feature by modifying the plug in any way.
Power cord is 4 feet long.


Elsewhere, on the website:


A Typical Cycle:

  • Incineration cycle is started with the push button. Both heater and blower come on when button is pushed. Heater alternates off and on for a preset period of time, blower continues on until unit has cooled.
  • Several people may use the toilet in rapid succession. Push the start button after each use to reset the timer.
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Old 08-15-2021, 06:13 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by ddw36 View Post
How much additional power would a battery bank need to run a cycle of the toilet, when the toilet uses 1.5-2 Kwh/per? I do not know how to translate Kwh to Amps & Volts, altho I do know Watts = Amps x Volts. If you need more info, let me know. Basically, would you have an Incinolet on your boat?
According to PhysicsForum.com, to evaporate 1 liter of water requires 7500 watts.

https://www.physicsforums.com/thread...inutes.399908/

The average 12v battery has around 100 amps, or around 1200 watts of power.

You can argue around the edges of the math and conversions, battery chemistry, etc. But clearly, it's not practical to use battery power alone for an incineration toilet. I'd add it to A/C as a definitive use-case for a generator.

Bad enough that am electric boat has to fire-up the genny to make coffee in the morning. Would have to fire it up again for the jaunt to the head an hour later.

Peter
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Old 08-15-2021, 07:05 AM   #6
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over one hour

From the manual:

When you push the start button, heater and blower both come on. Heater alternates off and on for 1-1/4 hours. Blower stays on for an additional 10 to 45 minutes.
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Old 08-15-2021, 07:09 AM   #7
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With places now becoming no discharge for grey as well as black water see this as a real problem in the future. Volumes of grey water produced by even a couple are significant. Are you aware of any new technologies aimed at addressing both grey and black wastes. Don’t see doubling tankage as an answer and as you point out current evaporation units are energy hogs.
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Old 08-15-2021, 07:27 AM   #8
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With places now becoming no discharge for grey as well as black water see this as a real problem in the future. Volumes of grey water produced by even a couple are significant. Are you aware of any new technologies aimed at addressing both grey and black wastes. Don’t see doubling tankage as an answer and as you point out current evaporation units are energy hogs.
NDZ that includes grey water mosyly puts a kibosh on compliant cruising boats. Converting any liquid to vapor requires a lot of energy so only real alternative is adding tank capacity or use low-flow toilet (or both).

For black water NDZ, a compost head (aka "Litter Box" as termed by Peggie Hall) becomes viable and attractive. I would think more 2-head cruising boats would have one head as compost. Even then, liquids are typically dumped illegally, though urine is relatively inert, especially compared to mixed slurry in a traditional holding tank.

Of course the real-world answer is non-compliance. Based on some recent unscientific polling, I'd guess that compliance with discharge requirements is under 50%. I live near a fairly busy stretch of the ICW. Ratio of larger boats with multiple people aboard on waterway vs number of boats visiting pumpouts certainly suggests low compliance.

Peter
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Old 08-15-2021, 07:55 AM   #9
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So expect to see new construction as one composting, one low flow and a grey water tank? Know “gentlemen sit to pee” but hate it.
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Old 08-15-2021, 07:56 AM   #10
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Check your PM Hippocampus
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Old 08-15-2021, 08:55 AM   #11
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With places now becoming no discharge for grey as well as black water see this as a real problem in the future.

Where are these new gray water NDZs? With the exception of fewer than half a dozen closed inland lakes, there are none in the US.

--Peggie
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Old 08-15-2021, 09:11 AM   #12
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So expect to see new construction as one composting, one low flow and a grey water tank? Know “gentlemen sit to pee” but hate it.

We have a Nature’s Head “composter” on the boat and in an RV. We have really enjoyed the simplicity of the toilets and the lack of smell, but they don’t work well if you have lots of folks aboard partying because urine tanks fills up too fast. Works very well for a couple with occasional guests for a short time.

I have two urine tanks so I can easily do the swap out when one gets full, and when at anchor I just dump it overboard. When at the dock I dump it in the marina toilet.

The sitting down to pee was strange at first, but one gets used to it after awhile. Plus, when underway when it’s rough out sitting down makes for a more secure place.
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Old 08-15-2021, 11:06 AM   #13
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With places now becoming no discharge for grey as well as black water see this as a real problem in the future.

Where are these new gray water NDZs? With the exception of fewer than half a dozen closed inland lakes, there are none in the US.

--Peggie
That would have been my question as well. Perhaps somewhere in the world, but not in the USA that I have been made aware of.

Very few boats are manufactured with grey water tanks and sinks and showers plumbed to them. This would have to be done by the buyer after the sale.
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Old 08-15-2021, 11:07 AM   #14
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We have a Nature’s Head “composter” on the boat and in an RV. We have really enjoyed the simplicity of the toilets and the lack of smell, but they don’t work well if you have lots of folks aboard partying because urine tanks fills up too fast. Works very well for a couple with occasional guests for a short time.

I have two urine tanks so I can easily do the swap out when one gets full, and when at anchor I just dump it overboard. When at the dock I dump it in the marina toilet.

The sitting down to pee was strange at first, but one gets used to it after awhile. Plus, when underway when it’s rough out sitting down makes for a more secure place.
If you are dumping your urine overboard, you are in violation of the law.
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Old 08-15-2021, 12:39 PM   #15
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That is true. The law prohibits the discharge (includes, but is not limited to, any spilling, leaking, pouring, pumping, emitting, emptying, or dumping) of sewage (human body wastes and the wastes from toilets and other receptacles intended to receive or retain body waste). There is no exception for urine only.

I'm still waiting to learn where all these new gray water NDZs are. There are MARPOL regs that prohibit the discharge of gray water from large commercial vessels inside the US 12 mile territorial limit, but with the exception of some marinas and harbors in a few European countries (I think Turkey is one and has been for a couple of decades), I've yet to hear of any inside or outside the US. I do know that while it may be legal, discharging dishwashers and clothes washers overboard near shore is frowned on everywhere.


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Old 08-15-2021, 12:45 PM   #16
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With places now becoming no discharge for grey as well as black water see this as a real problem in the future.

Where are these new gray water NDZs? With the exception of fewer than half a dozen closed inland lakes, there are none in the US.

--Peggie
The Discovery Marina at Campbell River (Canada, not US) has a no grey water discharge policy. There was one in Washington state that we visited 2 months ago, forget which. These are marina mandated, not government, but the idea seems to be taking hold some places.

I'd guess the compliance is about 0%.
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Old 08-15-2021, 01:03 PM   #17
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I've has Incinolets on my current boat for 10 years. No failures. But I set the boat up for 24/7 AC power. I have a large inverter and big battery bank. But because of the inverter and alternators on the mains, I don't run a generator when the mains are on. Saving wear and tear with about 1-2 gallons/hour savings.

If I'm on the boat alone, I can go 3 days on the inverter. When I use a generator for charging, I turn on the water heater, make water, do laundry and run the dishwasher. 50 gallon water heater is super insulated and will hold heat for 3 days+.

When there are several people on board the Incinolets are more efficient because some of the users are liquid only and you can have 3 flushes in a short time if you keep the ash pot low. So each flush isn't 1kw that mine are set for. And I have a urinal in the fo'c'sle that no government agency has complained about. But having been a fisherman, when aboard alone, or with just men, we pee over the side. Since I have a private dock, never use marinas, and don't anchor in crowded anchorages, it's not a problem, not that I would care. And I'm not doing anything sport fishermen don't do.

When I worked in yards and owned a yard, one of the most unpleasant tasks was fixing customers marine toilets. And I never will again.
Having had a Incinolet, I'll never own another marine toilet, no more green bowl, smell, or brown fingers.
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Old 08-15-2021, 03:52 PM   #18
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Thanks to those who responded directly to my question. An Incinolet uses no more power than an electric range: Incinolet, 1.5-2 Kwh. Electric range, https://www.google.com/search?client...electric+range


Replacing an electric range with propane would make energy space for an Incinolet.
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Old 08-15-2021, 04:30 PM   #19
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Your original question was how many batteries for an incineration toilet. I know of no one who runs an electric range off batteries (sounds like Lepke can so maybe I can point to one). Some have migrated to induction cook tops and lithium, maybe very limited use of an oven. For those that have electric boats, they tend to schedule their generator usage based on meal planning. I don't know about you, but my constitution doesn't always provide such predictability. More like "honey, have you seen the sports section? Oh...can you turn-on the generator please?"

But the math is easy. 20 amp @ 120vac circuit that runs for something around an hour. Call it 2kw. You would need approx 2 batteries for each flush. Maybe the heating element only runs 50%, so maybe only one battery per flush, but still, you'd drain that battery. For each flush, you'd need to recover about 100 amps @ 12vdc.

Your best bet is to ask Lepke how he does it. Going three days between charging with incineration sounds amazing to me, but maybe he has a bank of 2v locomotive batteries and some sort of 440v 3-phase power plant for charging. Or maybe he's invented an induction incineration toilet (now there an idea!!)

Other than the power issue, incineration sounds like the way to go. Zero discharge.

Peter
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Old 08-15-2021, 06:59 PM   #20
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I comply with NDZ regulations very nearly 100% of the time. But I've yet to comprehend why discharging urine from a toilet is an evil act, but if you jump in the water for a swim you can pee freely and nobody cares! Look at a very popular and busy beach on a summer day. The amount of urine going into the ocean/lake on a given weekend are more than the local boating community could do in a season.
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