Incinolet toilet practicality

[ddw36]

How much additional power would a battery bank need to run a cycle of the toilet, when the toilet uses 1.5-2 Kwh/per? I do not know how to translate Kwh to Amps & Volts, altho I do know Watts = Amps x Volts. If you need more info, let me know. Basically, would you have an Incinolet on your boat?

 

[KnotYet]

Something that needs 2kW for an hour is going to require 80 amps or more from a 24V
battery bank for that length of time. If it's powered by an inverter make that 100 amps.
I would call that a pretty heavy draw.

 

[ddw36]

Something that needs 2kW for an hour is going to require 80 amps or more from a
24 VDC battery bank for that length of time. I would call that a pretty heavy draw.

Thanks. I don't know how long it takes to burn the waste to ash, but I don't think it's an hour.

 

[HTurner]

According to the manual:


Electrical Preparation
This appliance has a 20-amp plug and is meant to fit only into a 20-amp
receptacle. (Fig. 4) If the outlet you intend to use for the INCINOLET is
not the proper type, then change the receptacle. You must have a circuit
suitable for 20 amps, headed by a 20-amp circuit breaker. Do not
attempt to defeat this safety feature by modifying the plug in any way.
Power cord is 4 feet long.


Elsewhere, on the website:


A Typical Cycle:

• Incineration cycle is started with the push button. Both heater and blower come on when button is pushed. Heater alternates off and on for a preset period of time, blower continues on until unit has cooled.
• Several people may use the toilet in rapid succession. Push the start button after each use to reset the timer.

 

[mvweebles]

How much additional power would a battery bank need to run a cycle of the toilet, when the toilet uses 1.5-2 Kwh/per? I do not know how to translate Kwh to Amps & Volts, altho I do know Watts = Amps x Volts. If you need more info, let me know. Basically, would you have an Incinolet on your boat?

According to PhysicsForum.com, to evaporate 1 liter of water requires 7500 watts.

https://www.physicsforums.com/threa...aporate-1-liter-of-water-in-5-minutes.399908/

The average 12v battery has around 100 amps, or around 1200 watts of power.

You can argue around the edges of the math and conversions, battery chemistry, etc. But clearly, it's not practical to use battery power alone for an incineration toilet. I'd add it to A/C as a definitive use-case for a generator.

Bad enough that am electric boat has to fire-up the genny to make coffee in the morning. Would have to fire it up again for the jaunt to the head an hour later.

Peter

 

[IRENE]

over one hour

From the manual:

When you push the start button, heater and blower both come on. Heater alternates off and on for 1-1/4 hours. Blower stays on for an additional 10 to 45 minutes.

 

[Hippocampus]

With places now becoming no discharge for grey as well as black water see this as a real problem in the future. Volumes of grey water produced by even a couple are significant. Are you aware of any new technologies aimed at addressing both grey and black wastes. Don’t see doubling tankage as an answer and as you point out current evaporation units are energy hogs.

 

[mvweebles]

With places now becoming no discharge for grey as well as black water see this as a real problem in the future. Volumes of grey water produced by even a couple are significant. Are you aware of any new technologies aimed at addressing both grey and black wastes. Don’t see doubling tankage as an answer and as you point out current evaporation units are energy hogs.

NDZ that includes grey water mosyly puts a kibosh on compliant cruising boats. Converting any liquid to vapor requires a lot of energy so only real alternative is adding tank capacity or use low-flow toilet (or both).

For black water NDZ, a compost head (aka "Litter Box" as termed by Peggie Hall) becomes viable and attractive. I would think more 2-head cruising boats would have one head as compost. Even then, liquids are typically dumped illegally, though urine is relatively inert, especially compared to mixed slurry in a traditional holding tank.

Of course the real-world answer is non-compliance. Based on some recent unscientific polling, I'd guess that compliance with discharge requirements is under 50%. I live near a fairly busy stretch of the ICW. Ratio of larger boats with multiple people aboard on waterway vs number of boats visiting pumpouts certainly suggests low compliance.

Peter

 

[Hippocampus]

So expect to see new construction as one composting, one low flow and a grey water tank? Know “gentlemen sit to pee” but hate it.

 

[johnrupp]

Check your PM Hippocampus

 

[HeadMistress]

With places now becoming no discharge for grey as well as black water see this as a real problem in the future.

Where are these new gray water NDZs? With the exception of fewer than half a dozen closed inland lakes, there are none in the US.

--Peggie

 

[cardude01]

So expect to see new construction as one composting, one low flow and a grey water tank? Know “gentlemen sit to pee” but hate it.

We have a Nature’s Head “composter” on the boat and in an RV. We have really enjoyed the simplicity of the toilets and the lack of smell, but they don’t work well if you have lots of folks aboard partying because urine tanks fills up too fast. Works very well for a couple with occasional guests for a short time.

I have two urine tanks so I can easily do the swap out when one gets full, and when at anchor I just dump it overboard. When at the dock I dump it in the marina toilet.

The sitting down to pee was strange at first, but one gets used to it after awhile. Plus, when underway when it’s rough out sitting down makes for a more secure place.

 

[rwidman]

With places now becoming no discharge for grey as well as black water see this as a real problem in the future.

Where are these new gray water NDZs? With the exception of fewer than half a dozen closed inland lakes, there are none in the US.

--Peggie

That would have been my question as well. Perhaps somewhere in the world, but not in the USA that I have been made aware of.

Very few boats are manufactured with grey water tanks and sinks and showers plumbed to them. This would have to be done by the buyer after the sale.

 

[rwidman]

We have a Nature’s Head “composter” on the boat and in an RV. We have really enjoyed the simplicity of the toilets and the lack of smell, but they don’t work well if you have lots of folks aboard partying because urine tanks fills up too fast. Works very well for a couple with occasional guests for a short time.

I have two urine tanks so I can easily do the swap out when one gets full, and when at anchor I just dump it overboard. When at the dock I dump it in the marina toilet.

The sitting down to pee was strange at first, but one gets used to it after awhile. Plus, when underway when it’s rough out sitting down makes for a more secure place.

If you are dumping your urine overboard, you are in violation of the law.

 

[HeadMistress]

That is true. The law prohibits the discharge (includes, but is not limited to, any spilling, leaking, pouring, pumping, emitting, emptying, or dumping) of sewage (human body wastes and the wastes from toilets and other receptacles intended to receive or retain body waste). There is no exception for urine only.

I'm still waiting to learn where all these new gray water NDZs are. There are MARPOL regs that prohibit the discharge of gray water from large commercial vessels inside the US 12 mile territorial limit, but with the exception of some marinas and harbors in a few European countries (I think Turkey is one and has been for a couple of decades), I've yet to hear of any inside or outside the US. I do know that while it may be legal, discharging dishwashers and clothes washers overboard near shore is frowned on everywhere.


--Peggie

 

[DDW]

With places now becoming no discharge for grey as well as black water see this as a real problem in the future.

Where are these new gray water NDZs? With the exception of fewer than half a dozen closed inland lakes, there are none in the US.

--Peggie

The Discovery Marina at Campbell River (Canada, not US) has a no grey water discharge policy. There was one in Washington state that we visited 2 months ago, forget which. These are marina mandated, not government, but the idea seems to be taking hold some places.

I'd guess the compliance is about 0%.

 

[Lepke]

I've has Incinolets on my current boat for 10 years. No failures. But I set the boat up for 24/7 AC power. I have a large inverter and big battery bank. But because of the inverter and alternators on the mains, I don't run a generator when the mains are on. Saving wear and tear with about 1-2 gallons/hour savings.

If I'm on the boat alone, I can go 3 days on the inverter. When I use a generator for charging, I turn on the water heater, make water, do laundry and run the dishwasher. 50 gallon water heater is super insulated and will hold heat for 3 days+.

When there are several people on board the Incinolets are more efficient because some of the users are liquid only and you can have 3 flushes in a short time if you keep the ash pot low. So each flush isn't 1kw that mine are set for. And I have a urinal in the fo'c'sle that no government agency has complained about. But having been a fisherman, when aboard alone, or with just men, we pee over the side. Since I have a private dock, never use marinas, and don't anchor in crowded anchorages, it's not a problem, not that I would care. And I'm not doing anything sport fishermen don't do.

When I worked in yards and owned a yard, one of the most unpleasant tasks was fixing customers marine toilets. And I never will again.
Having had a Incinolet, I'll never own another marine toilet, no more green bowl, smell, or brown fingers.

 

[ddw36]

Thanks to those who responded directly to my question. An Incinolet uses no more power than an electric range: Incinolet, 1.5-2 Kwh. Electric range, https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=kwh+electric+range


Replacing an electric range with propane would make energy space for an Incinolet.

 

[mvweebles]

Your original question was how many batteries for an incineration toilet. I know of no one who runs an electric range off batteries (sounds like Lepke can so maybe I can point to one). Some have migrated to induction cook tops and lithium, maybe very limited use of an oven. For those that have electric boats, they tend to schedule their generator usage based on meal planning. I don't know about you, but my constitution doesn't always provide such predictability. More like "honey, have you seen the sports section? Oh...can you turn-on the generator please?"

But the math is easy. 20 amp @ 120vac circuit that runs for something around an hour. Call it 2kw. You would need approx 2 batteries for each flush. Maybe the heating element only runs 50%, so maybe only one battery per flush, but still, you'd drain that battery. For each flush, you'd need to recover about 100 amps @ 12vdc.

Your best bet is to ask Lepke how he does it. Going three days between charging with incineration sounds amazing to me, but maybe he has a bank of 2v locomotive batteries and some sort of 440v 3-phase power plant for charging. Or maybe he's invented an induction incineration toilet (now there an idea!!)

Other than the power issue, incineration sounds like the way to go. Zero discharge.

Peter

 

[backinblue]

I comply with NDZ regulations very nearly 100% of the time. But I've yet to comprehend why discharging urine from a toilet is an evil act, but if you jump in the water for a swim you can pee freely and nobody cares! Look at a very popular and busy beach on a summer day. The amount of urine going into the ocean/lake on a given weekend are more than the local boating community could do in a season.

 

[Roughnit]

To answer your question on KWh to amps volts. You already have the W=VxA. 1.5-2 kilowatt hour is 1500 to 2000 watt hours. Watt hours=Voltage x Amp hours. Using 12 volts 1500 watt hours/12 volts=125 amp hours. This is all ignoring inefficiencies associated with inverting etc., but you would need 125 to 167 amp hours of battery capacity per cycle.

 

[HeadMistress]

I've yet to comprehend why discharging urine from a toilet is an evil act, but if you jump in the water for a swim you can pee freely and nobody cares!


Simple: it's impossible to enforce any regs against it.


--Peggie

 

[HeadMistress]

The Discovery Marina at Campbell River (Canada, not US) has a no grey water discharge policy. There was one in Washington state that we visited 2 months ago, forget which. These are marina mandated, not government, but the idea seems to be taking hold some places.

Marinas are private property....they get to make their own rules as long as those rules don't violate federal law. For more than a decade there have been some well meaning but misguided marina owners or managers who believe they're "doing the right thing" by requiring holding tanks in waters where the discharge of treated waste is legal, unaware that the discharge from any Type I or II MSD is cleaner than the water in any marina. Banning gray water discharge is just another "feel good" rule that accomplishes nothing. There will always be a few marinas who bow to the enviro-zealots, but new federal legislation would be required to turn any public US waters into "gray water NDZs" and that's highly unlikely at least for the foreseeable future.


--Peggie

 

[Lepke]

When I bought my current boat it was setup to run a generator any time away from shore power. Because the generator ran all the time the alternators didn't work and the AC charger kept the batteries up. There was an old 2200 watt 12v inverter to run the refer & freezer overnight. It had an electric stove, I didn't like the 12v lights available at the time, I couldn't see running a generator just to cook, and the NDZs were growing or being planned. I didn't want a holding tank. And there was a goofy switching setup between shore power or the generators. So I decided to set the boat up for 24/7 AC and use Incinolets.
I use a 10,000 watt 48v inverter. Smaller wires, batteries can be further away, etc. 8d batteries. I don't think I've been over 4000 watts.The inverter switches the load so there's no pause. Now I have a diesel stove, but use induction plates in hot weather. All lights except running and emergency lights are AC. I avoid really hot weather so rarely run air conditioning, but run a large reefer and 2 freezers. And I run a desktop PC and have Starlink. Cared for Dyno batteries last 10 years and coming up on that now, but they still last 3 days on the hook. I kept the old 12v inverter for emergency but it would have to run off one of the starting banks. Both mains have 12v & 48v alternators.
If you want the availability of Ac, you just need a decent inverter and a place for batteries. If I wasn't spending long times at anchor, I could probably avoid using a generator.

 

[Peter B]

...The sitting down to pee was strange at first, but one gets used to it after awhile. Plus, when underway when it’s rough out sitting down makes for a more secure place.

There are many more upsides to...ummm...sitting downsides...other than being more secure in a seaway.

For years I advised my older male patients, who often had to take several trips during the night, complicated by time to empty, (those damned prostates ), to just sit down..! No need to put on the blinding light, or flush, and less danger of 'missing', and much easier to get back to sleep not having lost one's 'night vision', and less disturbance to partner. Nowhere is it graven in a tablet of stone that men must stand to urinate..!

 

[Peter B]

I've yet to comprehend why discharging urine from a toilet is an evil act, but if you jump in the water for a swim you can pee freely and nobody cares!


Simple: it's impossible to enforce any regs against it.
--Peggie

My mother had a saying that always brought a chuckle..."the 'p' is silent, as in pseabathing..."

 

[Hippocampus]

May want to look at noonsite. Much of European waters have increasingly strict regulations about grey water and that trend continues. Here in the US ships(particularly cruise ships) are finding themselves under restrains and Canada is following that lead. There are already inland waters and areas of shell fish harvest or aquaculture where I think rules exist. You’re right at present there’s no federal code effecting small pleasure boats in US waters only restrictions placed by private entities. Still, personally think it’s just a matter of time. That’s why I referenced new construction in the future and made no statements about the current situation.
At least for us much of our grey water contains soaps and detergents. Maybe the thinking is dispersants are bad. Much like putting Dawn on a diesel leak. Don’t know enough about why there’s a current move to restrict grey water releases but do think it’s in our future hence the prior post. I live on a stocked pond in a governmental park. It’s illegal to wash up in that pond. Also no human wastes. (Don’t know how they can prevent a swimmer or how to document it occurred so ridiculous regulation). No runoff (grey, black or even surface ground) can enter the pond so EPA, local environmental, building and water committees all have to pass new construction/renovations. Wouldn’t be surprised if coastal land owners and marinas will face similar issues in the future.
Peggy you may correct me given your knowledge base but my understanding is that urine passing through your MSD picks up the flora of that system on its way out so is different than relatively sterile urine coming out a person directly into the water. Also as you pointed out even urine coming directly out of a person isn’t truly sterile as previously thought.

 

[backinblue]

I've yet to comprehend why discharging urine from a toilet is an evil act, but if you jump in the water for a swim you can pee freely and nobody cares!


Simple: it's impossible to enforce any regs against it.


--Peggie

That's true however it's not even frowned upon. For instance, there are no signs at beaches encouraging use of the rest rooms, or in many cases maybe not even sufficient facilities. Kind of like storm drains that say not to dump anything down them because they drain to the ocean. It would be hard to enforce if someone wanted to, but at least there is a deterrent. Holding tank discharge is really hard to enforce for those who want to do it. However there is the deterrent of knowing it's unlawful and subject to penalty.

I suggest a fine for anyone at a beach who wades into the water up to their waist and then returns to the beach. lol

 

[HeadMistress]

Peggy you may correct me given your knowledge base but my understanding is that urine passing through your MSD picks up the flora of that system on its way out so is different than relatively sterile urine coming out a person directly into the water. Also as you pointed out even urine coming directly out of a person isn’t truly sterile as previously thought.

I have no idea what you mean by any of that (by "MSD" are you referring to a toilet or a treatment device? What "flora?") but even if I did, what does urine have to do with gray water discharge? ...Unless you include shower water, but I don't think peeing in the shower turns it into an MSD.

Here in the US ships(particularly cruise ships) are finding themselves under restrains and Canada is following that lead. There are already inland waters and areas of shell fish harvest or aquaculture where I think rules exist.

Not just cruise ships, but tankers, freighters and all large commercial ships. Not only gray water either...bilge water from foreign ships introduced zebra mussels into the Great Lakes...which led to requiring foreign flagged ships to empty their bilges outside the territorial waters of both Canada and the US before entering the St. Lawrence Seaway and just a few years ago California succeeded in getting the EPA to declare a section of coastal waters much wider than the "3 mile limit" for recreational vessels NDZs but ONLY for large commercial vessels.

If you really want to hop on a gray water soapbox, let's not forget the regularly occurring massive (millions of gallons) sewage treatment plant spills that actually do impact fishing, swimming and shellfish beds. I've always considered it to the ultimate irony that the very DAY Rhode Island's statewide NDZ for recreational vessels went into effect, a massive spill in Providence closed all the beaches and shellfish beds at that end of Narragansett Bay for a week! Btw, Narragansett Bay has about a 4' tidal variation high-low...so it doesn't lack for tidal cleansing.


And the enviro-zealots have nothing better to do but whine about a little gray water down a sink or shower drain on a boat...seriously???


--Peggie

 

[backinblue]

Peggie, that's a pet peeve of mine too. Most coastal towns discharge (millions?) of gallons of untreated sewage when a storm overwhems the system. Beaches are shut for several days in my town until bacteria subsides. Not to mention what it does to the busy shellfish business. Is that another area of let's not worry about it because it's too hard to fix?