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Old 08-15-2021, 07:06 PM   #21
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To answer your question on KWh to amps volts. You already have the W=VxA. 1.5-2 kilowatt hour is 1500 to 2000 watt hours. Watt hours=Voltage x Amp hours. Using 12 volts 1500 watt hours/12 volts=125 amp hours. This is all ignoring inefficiencies associated with inverting etc., but you would need 125 to 167 amp hours of battery capacity per cycle.
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Old 08-15-2021, 08:12 PM   #22
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I've yet to comprehend why discharging urine from a toilet is an evil act, but if you jump in the water for a swim you can pee freely and nobody cares!


Simple: it's impossible to enforce any regs against it.


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Old 08-15-2021, 10:10 PM   #23
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The Discovery Marina at Campbell River (Canada, not US) has a no grey water discharge policy. There was one in Washington state that we visited 2 months ago, forget which. These are marina mandated, not government, but the idea seems to be taking hold some places.

Marinas are private property....they get to make their own rules as long as those rules don't violate federal law. For more than a decade there have been some well meaning but misguided marina owners or managers who believe they're "doing the right thing" by requiring holding tanks in waters where the discharge of treated waste is legal, unaware that the discharge from any Type I or II MSD is cleaner than the water in any marina. Banning gray water discharge is just another "feel good" rule that accomplishes nothing. There will always be a few marinas who bow to the enviro-zealots, but new federal legislation would be required to turn any public US waters into "gray water NDZs" and that's highly unlikely at least for the foreseeable future.


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Old 08-15-2021, 10:59 PM   #24
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When I bought my current boat it was setup to run a generator any time away from shore power. Because the generator ran all the time the alternators didn't work and the AC charger kept the batteries up. There was an old 2200 watt 12v inverter to run the refer & freezer overnight. It had an electric stove, I didn't like the 12v lights available at the time, I couldn't see running a generator just to cook, and the NDZs were growing or being planned. I didn't want a holding tank. And there was a goofy switching setup between shore power or the generators. So I decided to set the boat up for 24/7 AC and use Incinolets.
I use a 10,000 watt 48v inverter. Smaller wires, batteries can be further away, etc. 8d batteries. I don't think I've been over 4000 watts.The inverter switches the load so there's no pause. Now I have a diesel stove, but use induction plates in hot weather. All lights except running and emergency lights are AC. I avoid really hot weather so rarely run air conditioning, but run a large reefer and 2 freezers. And I run a desktop PC and have Starlink. Cared for Dyno batteries last 10 years and coming up on that now, but they still last 3 days on the hook. I kept the old 12v inverter for emergency but it would have to run off one of the starting banks. Both mains have 12v & 48v alternators.
If you want the availability of Ac, you just need a decent inverter and a place for batteries. If I wasn't spending long times at anchor, I could probably avoid using a generator.
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Old 08-16-2021, 01:37 AM   #25
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...The sitting down to pee was strange at first, but one gets used to it after awhile. Plus, when underway when it’s rough out sitting down makes for a more secure place.
There are many more upsides to...ummm...sitting downsides...other than being more secure in a seaway.

For years I advised my older male patients, who often had to take several trips during the night, complicated by time to empty, (those damned prostates ), to just sit down..! No need to put on the blinding light, or flush, and less danger of 'missing', and much easier to get back to sleep not having lost one's 'night vision', and less disturbance to partner. Nowhere is it graven in a tablet of stone that men must stand to urinate..!
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Old 08-16-2021, 01:39 AM   #26
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I've yet to comprehend why discharging urine from a toilet is an evil act, but if you jump in the water for a swim you can pee freely and nobody cares!


Simple: it's impossible to enforce any regs against it.
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Old 08-16-2021, 11:27 AM   #27
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May want to look at noonsite. Much of European waters have increasingly strict regulations about grey water and that trend continues. Here in the US ships(particularly cruise ships) are finding themselves under restrains and Canada is following that lead. There are already inland waters and areas of shell fish harvest or aquaculture where I think rules exist. You’re right at present there’s no federal code effecting small pleasure boats in US waters only restrictions placed by private entities. Still, personally think it’s just a matter of time. That’s why I referenced new construction in the future and made no statements about the current situation.
At least for us much of our grey water contains soaps and detergents. Maybe the thinking is dispersants are bad. Much like putting Dawn on a diesel leak. Don’t know enough about why there’s a current move to restrict grey water releases but do think it’s in our future hence the prior post. I live on a stocked pond in a governmental park. It’s illegal to wash up in that pond. Also no human wastes. (Don’t know how they can prevent a swimmer or how to document it occurred so ridiculous regulation). No runoff (grey, black or even surface ground) can enter the pond so EPA, local environmental, building and water committees all have to pass new construction/renovations. Wouldn’t be surprised if coastal land owners and marinas will face similar issues in the future.
Peggy you may correct me given your knowledge base but my understanding is that urine passing through your MSD picks up the flora of that system on its way out so is different than relatively sterile urine coming out a person directly into the water. Also as you pointed out even urine coming directly out of a person isn’t truly sterile as previously thought.
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Old 08-16-2021, 12:23 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by HeadMistress View Post
I've yet to comprehend why discharging urine from a toilet is an evil act, but if you jump in the water for a swim you can pee freely and nobody cares!


Simple: it's impossible to enforce any regs against it.


--Peggie
That's true however it's not even frowned upon. For instance, there are no signs at beaches encouraging use of the rest rooms, or in many cases maybe not even sufficient facilities. Kind of like storm drains that say not to dump anything down them because they drain to the ocean. It would be hard to enforce if someone wanted to, but at least there is a deterrent. Holding tank discharge is really hard to enforce for those who want to do it. However there is the deterrent of knowing it's unlawful and subject to penalty.

I suggest a fine for anyone at a beach who wades into the water up to their waist and then returns to the beach. lol
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Old 08-16-2021, 12:28 PM   #29
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Peggy you may correct me given your knowledge base but my understanding is that urine passing through your MSD picks up the flora of that system on its way out so is different than relatively sterile urine coming out a person directly into the water. Also as you pointed out even urine coming directly out of a person isn’t truly sterile as previously thought.

I have no idea what you mean by any of that (by "MSD" are you referring to a toilet or a treatment device? What "flora?") but even if I did, what does urine have to do with gray water discharge? ...Unless you include shower water, but I don't think peeing in the shower turns it into an MSD.

Here in the US ships(particularly cruise ships) are finding themselves under restrains and Canada is following that lead. There are already inland waters and areas of shell fish harvest or aquaculture where I think rules exist.

Not just cruise ships, but tankers, freighters and all large commercial ships. Not only gray water either...bilge water from foreign ships introduced zebra mussels into the Great Lakes...which led to requiring foreign flagged ships to empty their bilges outside the territorial waters of both Canada and the US before entering the St. Lawrence Seaway and just a few years ago California succeeded in getting the EPA to declare a section of coastal waters much wider than the "3 mile limit" for recreational vessels NDZs but ONLY for large commercial vessels.

If you really want to hop on a gray water soapbox, let's not forget the regularly occurring massive (millions of gallons) sewage treatment plant spills that actually do impact fishing, swimming and shellfish beds. I've always considered it to the ultimate irony that the very DAY Rhode Island's statewide NDZ for recreational vessels went into effect, a massive spill in Providence closed all the beaches and shellfish beds at that end of Narragansett Bay for a week! Btw, Narragansett Bay has about a 4' tidal variation high-low...so it doesn't lack for tidal cleansing.


And the enviro-zealots have nothing better to do but whine about a little gray water down a sink or shower drain on a boat...seriously???


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Old 08-16-2021, 12:38 PM   #30
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Peggie, that's a pet peeve of mine too. Most coastal towns discharge (millions?) of gallons of untreated sewage when a storm overwhems the system. Beaches are shut for several days in my town until bacteria subsides. Not to mention what it does to the busy shellfish business. Is that another area of let's not worry about it because it's too hard to fix?
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Old 08-16-2021, 04:11 PM   #31
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Is that another area of let's not worry about it because it's too hard to fix?

Not too hard to fix...too expensive to fix. Most municipal sewage systems are 50+ years old and populations of the cities, especially those in the northeast, have grown exponentially, overloading and outgrowing what their sewage systems and treatment plants can handle. And as the cities have grown, "stuff" is going down drains that never used to--never existed before. It's all they can afford just to repair breaks and clear clogs...there's no money left to expand and upgrade. This is partly due to increased demand but also fiscal mismanagement, especially the larger cities. As a result, more than 100 east coast municipal sewers and sewage treatment plants were granted waivers by the EPA that allow them to continue to operate at all.

It's worst on the northeast part of the east coast, but west coast markets have their share of problems too. Several years ago a list of the 10 dirtiest harbors in the US was published...Avalon Harbor on Catalina Island CA--the last place you'd expect--was #1 on that list. The sewer infrastructure on the island is in such bad shape that more than 95% of the sewage goes into the water "raw."

Key West FL had a problem ...their system discharged sewage (not sure whether treated or not) into the ocean via a pipe that was barely a mile long. They were able to solve it by adding at least another couple of miles to the pipe.

'Twould be nice if environmentalists and politicians put some effort into solving all these problems instead of simply targeting boat owners who flush less toilet waste and discharge less gray water in a year than the average household sends into the sewers systems in a day.




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Old 08-16-2021, 04:49 PM   #32
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Is that another area of let's not worry about it because it's too hard to fix?

Not too hard to fix...too expensive to fix. Most municipal sewage systems are 50+ years old and populations of the cities, especially those in the northeast, have grown exponentially, overloading and outgrowing what their sewage systems and treatment plants can handle. And as the cities have grown, "stuff" is going down drains that never used to--never existed before. It's all they can afford just to repair breaks and clear clogs...there's no money left to expand and upgrade. This is partly due to increased demand but also fiscal mismanagement, especially the larger cities. As a result, more than 100 east coast municipal sewers and sewage treatment plants were granted waivers by the EPA that allow them to continue to operate at all.

It's worst on the northeast part of the east coast, but west coast markets have their share of problems too. Several years ago a list of the 10 dirtiest harbors in the US was published...Avalon Harbor on Catalina Island CA--the last place you'd expect--was #1 on that list. The sewer infrastructure on the island is in such bad shape that more than 95% of the sewage goes into the water "raw."

Key West FL had a problem ...their system discharged sewage (not sure whether treated or not) into the ocean via a pipe that was barely a mile long. They were able to solve it by adding at least another couple of miles to the pipe.

'Twould be nice if environmentalists and politicians put some effort into solving all these problems instead of simply targeting boat owners who flush less toilet waste and discharge less gray water in a year than the average household sends into the sewers systems in a day.




--Peggie
Expensive to fix = hard to fix. Hard for a town or city or even a state to invest that much $$$ in infrastructure and pay for it. Maybe with the severeal trillions being debated right now, there will be money to tackle this, but I suspect not because sewage is not as attractive a political issue as green energy for example. Even though it would have a very positive impact on the enviroment along our coastlines. It's more fun to talk about electric powered airliners, etc.

And you are so correct about boat owners vs. households. On a boat you learn to shower and wash dishes with a very minimum amount of water that ends up going overboard. But how often to households care about the 30 min shower their teenager routinely takes (other than utility bills)? Or how often you run your diswasher, clothes washer, etc. True story, my son was notorious for taking long showers. He had a friend stay over at our house and after the 2 morning showers seemed never-ending, I went in the basement and slowly turned off the hot water!
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Old 08-16-2021, 06:47 PM   #33
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There are many more upsides to...ummm...sitting downsides...other than being more secure in a seaway.



For years I advised my older male patients, who often had to take several trips during the night, complicated by time to empty, (those damned prostates ), to just sit down..! No need to put on the blinding light, or flush, and less danger of 'missing', and much easier to get back to sleep not having lost one's 'night vision', and less disturbance to partner. Nowhere is it graven in a tablet of stone that men must stand to urinate..!


I don’t think this sitting to to pee thing works. I mean, like who is going to raise the seat back to the up position where it belongs??

Surely we males can’t be expected to do this.

Do the make spring loaded seats that just pop up?
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Old 08-16-2021, 08:18 PM   #34
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You DO know that the whole 'sit to pee' movement is a plot to MAKE men put the seat down. The rationale being, if he can't remember to put it back down after use, he's not likely to raise it before sitting down to pee more than once.

Therefore, since he always leaves the seat where he put it to use the toilet, wives win the toilet seat war without firing a single shot.

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Old 08-16-2021, 08:36 PM   #35
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Where, oh where has my thread gone?
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Old 08-16-2021, 08:39 PM   #36
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Sigh...I tried to introduce an element of logic and rationality to this subject - failed again.
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Old 08-16-2021, 11:45 PM   #37
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Re Gray water tanks:

My 2003 42 Nordic Tug came to me with a fairly good sized gray water tank. If I am in a marina that says “no suds” AND I am very careful, I can turn off the auto pump for that tank and pump the Gray water out after I leave the marina…. But, I am the only one using water, so it can be done. With multiple people on board it’s probably not workable.
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Old 08-17-2021, 06:33 AM   #38
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Once again Peggy you misread my view point. I wasn’t supporting a grey water mandate. Just theorizing what the future may bring and what it may mean for new boat construction and marine sanitation devices.

Returning to the OP. There’s a waterline 40 on yacht world with an incinolet. So given this is a small used boat it would seem it’s doable. Have cruised in environments from having a pump out sticker on the boat where the pump out boat comes by weekly(or more often with a call or hanging a flag out) and routinely empties the tank(s) to where holding tanks aren’t used at all. The basic technology of the incinolet hasn’t changed in decades. Still wondering if there any advances in our future. There’s a lot of waste heat generated in the typical cruiser. Perhaps using that and/or heat pumps to achieve some measure of preheating before just draining down the batteries to effect evaporation would decrease draw. Perhaps an engineer posting here would like to chime in on the practicalities. Yes there are environmentalists who want us to use a sledgehammer to drive in a small screw but see future regulations as likely coming.
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Old 05-04-2022, 11:50 PM   #39
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How much additional power would a battery bank need to run a cycle of the toilet, when the toilet uses 1.5-2 Kwh/per? I do not know how to translate Kwh to Amps & Volts, altho I do know Watts = Amps x Volts. If you need more info, let me know. Basically, would you have an Incinolet on your boat?

Not sure if you're still researching Incinolets but for what it might be worth, I recently ran across an Incinolet (Van install) video via youtube and thought it might actually help. That said, the video doesn't really go into a lot of technical detail but you could contact the channel owner and see what he has to say about the unit and how he went about setting up - Cheers!
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Old 05-05-2022, 01:39 AM   #40
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I've had my Incinolets for 10+ years. I'll never have another marine toilet.
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