Holding Tank Disaster, Where was Peggy Hall when I needed her?!?!

[firstbase]

Bad day. Have some head smell on my new-to-me Grand Banks 42 with Groco Model K manual heads. Put some liquid waste hose cleaner in my system yesterday so it could sit overnight. Went back today to pump it through the system. Holding tank gauge showed 1/4 full. Pump in raw water and then out to holding tank. Do this a few times, seemingly good results as everything pumping is filthy and then goes to clean water. Then I move to the second head and do the same. Will I am doing this the dockmaster comes to the boat and asks me what I am pumping overboard. Huh? Go look, pure sewage in water next to boat. I think "tank is full". Luckily the pumping station is within reach of my boat so we start pumping out the tank. Suction seems weak, on and off, they have to reprime the pump a couple of times. After 30 minutes or so I tell them it is empty enough and I go back into boat. Smell is unbelievable of course. So I go to the engine room and find the bilge full of holding tank waste. I put that nicely. I make my way back to the holding tank and find that the waste has been spraying out the top of the tank, down the sides, back, front, everywhere. One of three hoses on top of the tank is completely detached. Horrible.

Skip to the end of this clean up story which took all day and I find that the tank has three hoses coming out of the top. One going to each head which appear to be in good shape. The third hose, smaller than the other two, is completely pulled out of the top of the tank. See pics below. This hose goes up and over straight to a thru hull fitting. I assume this is the vent. All that is left is the hose (dark hose shown in pic below) and a smaller hose inserted into the end on the holding tank side (also pictured). About an inch, inch and a half, sticking out. It is completely deteriorated and totally blocked from what seems to be the deteriorating hose itself. Pieces of rubber crumble when I try to open it up with a screw driver. When I try to match up the hose to the tank it is too short. Sort of like the hose had shrunken in length and pulled out of the tank. I don't see any fittings or way that this hose was held in the tank beyond a tight fit of the smaller hose through the 1" circular opening on the top of the tank.

So..how to fix? I assume this all happened because I continued to pump into a full tank and it blew out the vent hose? Is that all there is that holds this hose in? Simply stuck in the tank through a hole? This is the vent correct?? Any help appreciated as I have to get this fixed and then somehow find a way to forget this whole day!!

 

[gaston]

o poo

 

[dhays]

Sorry to hear about your sad story.

It sounds to me as if a PO did some bad things with that vent hose. Since you have already gotten up close and personal with your sanitation, I would suggest that you keep going.

1. Check the connects on the two hoses from the heads.
2. Figure out the diameter of the vent opening, find the the diameter of the through-hull opening for the vent, and get yourself some good hose to replace it. One that will fit over the opening with a clamp as it should.
3. Open up tank gauge sending unit and either replace it or clean it out so it actually works. If it is hopeless, and your tanks are fiberglass, consider and exterior sensor to replace it.
4. Check on the condition of the vent through hull. It may be in as bad a shape as the hose.
5. Check to make sure that your pump-out hose is also in good shape.

None of that is fun or easy, but it isn't complicated and once you are done you can sit at ease with a bit more piece of mind.

 

[firstbase]

Thanks. Only had the boat 2 weeks so not familiar with all the systems yet and haven't even come near the holding tank which is buried behind the generator.. I have a macerator pump as well. Not sure where it fits in. If there are three hoses on top...what would they be? I assumed one from each head but now that my brain has cleared from the fumes I'm not sure. One has to be the pump out hose correct? Meaning the two heads combine into one which dumps into the holding tank? Rather confused on the whole thing. All holding tank hoses are top mounted with nothing underneath or out the side..?

 

[firstbase]

o poo
__________________
Calm down its the internet its not real life

Oh you can trust me....this wasn't the internet...it WAS real life....

 

[firstbase]

Sorry to hear about your sad story.

2. Figure out the diameter of the vent opening, find the the diameter of the through-hull opening for the vent, and get yourself some good hose to replace it. One that will fit over the opening with a clamp as it should.

5. Check to make sure that your pump-out hose is also in good shape.

Well, that is one of the issues. There is nothing sticking up from the holding tank to attach it to. There is simply a hole in the plate on top of the tank as shown in the picture. It appears it was simply stuck down into the tank. The vent hose is clamped to the wall behind the tank supposedly to keep it from coming out.

 

[BruceK]

The way you get up and close with boat systems is often when they fail, but this is a nastier start than most. Now that "the **** has hit the fan", best continue on, as dhays suggests.
How about a term in boat sale contracts requiring the seller to empty the tank before settlement. I don`t mind a tankful of fuel with the boat but I`m less keen on a tankful of someone else`s "waste". If observed, the sellers tank emptying would at least prove the "unload" system is working.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. fb. Ewww...I was VERY hesitant to scroll down to your pictures but you seem to have done a good job on the clean up. Thank you.

What you may have to do is either remove the two larger hoses and do a visual inspection to see where they go in the tank and/or remove the plate that is bolted to the top of the tank. IF those are the only 3 hoses that connect to the tank, yes, one is a vent (probably the broken one) and one SHOULD connect to simply the top of the tank (feed from the 2 heads which means there IS a "T" somewhere in that line) and the other SHOULD connect to a pipe that extends inside to the bottom of the tank (pumpout).

The macerator pump probably connects to the pumpout line via a "Y" valve. So it may be easier to trace that line to see where it goes.

Now, IF there is indeed a fourth hose at the bottom of the tank somewhere, then THAT is most probably the pump out and the three on top are vent, inlet, inlet. I don't envy you your job but it is what it is...

 

[C lectric]

Pic #3 -- that broken part almost looks like metal that has corroded away.

Brings up a question about what the plate is made of?

If metal that may be the problem. The metal fitting may have broken before and the owner just shoved it back together to get the boat sold.

If that plate and the other two nipples that the other two hoses attach to is steel they may not be far behind.

Try a magnet. If it sticks then the plate and fittings are welded steel . If it turn out to be aluminum or SS then the magnet won't help but some paint scratching will identify if it is metal of any kind.

Personally I would make or get a thick fiberglass plate, 1/2", with glassed on fiberglass nipples with ~ 1/8" wall. Epoxy would be best but even regular polyester should be more than enough.

Another good alternative would be a plate and nipples made of High Density Polyethylene [HDPE] or even Ultra high molecular weight polyethylene [UHMWPE]. Those materials would also be impervious to corrosion.

It would appear the existing plate is bolted to the tank so the new setup could be done the same way, bolted.

I am also going to ask what is the tank itself made of? If is metal, aluminum OR steel, even SS, then the whole tank may be in trouble eventually. Find out what the tank is made of.
Fiberglass or one of the P.E.s are good, metals not good, not for black water tanks.

 

[Art]

Oh Crap!


Sorry... just had to say that... trying to keep things light here.


Real sorry to hear of your black water tank failure. Hope repairs and thorough clean up go well as possible for you.

 

[dhays]

Well, that is one of the issues. There is nothing sticking up from the holding tank to attach it to. There is simply a hole in the plate on top of the tank as shown in the picture. It appears it was simply stuck down into the tank. The vent hose is clamped to the wall behind the tank supposedly to keep it from coming out.

Oh, I see. Seems kind of odd, but most of our boats have had some odd things done to them over the years.

Trace those hoses so you can be sure what they are. You should have a hose that goes to the macerator pump, likely near the bottom of the tank, as well as a hose for the pump-out. That could be one of those other two hoses but it may go all the way to near the bottom of the tank.

It may be worth taking off that plate that the hoses go through to check on the tank as well as the hose condition.

For that third hose, once you get that plate out, you may be able to get a pvc fitting that fits through the hole in the tank with a flange backing. That could be glued to the inside of the plate with 5200 or some such. Then you can use a regular hose and clamp to secure the new hose. Just a guess...

 

[FF]

The upside is the Groco Model K manual head is working great .

 

[Tom.B]

Well, we all have to learn about our own boat's systems the hard way. What sucks is that THIS is the system that you get to learn first!

You really should take this opportunity to straighten up your system like new hoses, clean the vent, clean the sending unit, etc.

I am not clear on the dark hose going to a "thru-hull". If it goes out the bottom of the boat, it is an overboard discharge and will go thru a pump. If it goes to the deck, it is your pumpout fitting. Vent lines are usually 1" hoses and not 2" or 2.5" which is what that looks like. "Y" fitting for overboard discharge will, often times, be located between the head and the tank.

So to me, it looks like you are going to need to replace that tank flange. I don't know if you will get the exact thing or if you will need to get a local fabricator to build you one. One thing is for sure, unless you find an exact replacement for that tank fitting, you are going to need to re-engineer the way those hoses connect to the tank.

First things first... You will need to trace each hose and determine where it goes and what its job is before you go any further. And for a little light reading material, grab Peggy's book and read up on it.

https://www.amazon.com/New-Get-Rid-...TF8&qid=1491829830&sr=8-1&keywords=boat+odors

Good luck and keep us posted!

 

[firstbase]

Now that my head is clearing there have to be jose connections lower on the tank as I have waste line coming from from head to tank that is attached to one of the engine stringers. Will sort it out when I am back on the boat. I will check all hoses and fittings. However seems like the issue was caused by the vent hose detaching so I guess the way to fix it is to take off the plate shown in the picture and check everything about it. If the plate is good and the two other nipples are ok I need to install something for the vent hose to attach to. Will a PVC fitting be ok? Guess if I am back there I should replace the vent tube as well. That would be the easiest part of all this. Actually hardest part has been cleaning up.

 

[Art]

fb - Understanding that you are up to your knees in problems here... having read all posts... I strongly recommend that you get a professional [maybe a certified Raritan installer - that's what I did] to at least look over [survey] your entire toilet plumbing system. The hundred to couple hundred you spend on a professional's in-depth, educated advice may be money well spent.

Reason I mention this is because with the way things seem DIY poorly-installed on top of holding tank... it's a good bet that other things in the plumbing system are also needing immediate attention. A pro can spot things you or I may completely miss.


This technique of having a pro installer look things over could save you not only money but also something way too similar from happening again.


Also, and unfortunately, I want to mention that hoses as well as the black-water tank may be past their useful life. The pro can immediately inform you what needs to be done as well as what could wait a while but should eventually be done. Then, you have a game plan to work from and can either do what is recommended yourself or have that pro or others do the improvements for you.

Happy Tottie-Improvement Daze! - Art

 

[firstbase]

The upside is the Groco Model K manual head is working great .

Nice try but no not really. A recirculating 30 year old Groco Model K head coupled with a previous owner who had not pumped raw water into system for a few years (used only fresh water from the sink faucet to flush) is what started this whole thing. Obviously the recirculating head is the least of my worries right now.

 

[ktdtx]

Now that my head is clearing there have to be hose connections lower on the tank as I have waste line coming from from head to tank that is attached to one of the engine stringers.

Correct--inflow and vent are on top of tank.
Outflow hose(s) are on bottom of tank. As mentioned you should have a "Y" valve where hose comes from tank to "Y" and then splits to tow hoses-one to thru hull and one to pump out fitting.

I know way more than I want to know about this from very similar episode. Person had 3 months to work thru list of things to get boat ready for cruise and first day macerator, holding tank, bilge pump, etc--all don't work--lot of clean up which led to complete overhaul of the system. If you are considering a large "redo" consider some parts of the hoses being replaces with PVC,...photo attached here (I hope) to show some of the work I did/had done.

 

[firstbase]

fb - ... I strongly recommend that you get a professional [maybe a certified Raritan installer - that's what I did] to at least look over [survey] your entire toilet plumbing system. The hundred to couple hundred you spend on a professional's in-depth, educated advice may be money well spent.

This technique of having a pro installer look things over could save you not only money but also something way too similar from happening again.

Totally agree and will do. Trying to just get things back in place until I can get someone there. Beyond the vent hose the other LOOK ok from the exterior but since this happened I'm going over the whole system. There is an old "Y" valve with a broken handle that seems to handle the forward head only but that can't be so, previous owner can't explain system very well, macerator pump has not been used in quite a while so who knows if it is toast (I can pretty much tell you right now), etc.

I haven't investigated if the tank could be removed. It is tight in behind the generator. If I find out that it is somewhat easily removed I will have a new tank put in and all new hoses. After this weekend a new waste system would be a good thing and money well spent to me.

 

[rwidman]

This thread has been a bit hard to follow so I'm not going to try to suggest anything other than these "rules".


1) The inlet(s) from the head(s) will be at or very near the top of the tank. Sewage comes in and falls to the bottom.


2) The vent connection should be at the top of the tank. As sewage comes in and drops to the bottom, air exits the tank through the vent.


3) Any outlets are at the bottom of the tank. That's where the sewage is. If you tried to pump out from the top of the tank, you would only get air. In some cases, the outlets may seem to be at the top, but if they are to work, there will be internal drop tubes to pick up from the bottom.


4) Metal and sewage is not a good combination. You're going to have serious corrosion problems. If possible, replace that metal top.


Boat plumbing is simple and intuitive for some people but not for others. If you can't figure this out, I suggest hiring a pro.


BTW: A macerator pump usually has a short shaft sticking out of the motor end. The shaft has a slot on the end. There may be a rubber cover on this. If the pump won't turn, remove the rubber cap and use a screwdriver in the slot to turn it and try to free it up.

 

[Art]

Totally agree and will do. Trying to just get things back in place until I can get someone there. Beyond the vent hose the other LOOK ok from the exterior but since this happened I'm going over the whole system. There is an old "Y" valve with a broken handle that seems to handle the forward head only but that can't be so, previous owner can't explain system very well, macerator pump has not been used in quite a while so who knows if it is toast (I can pretty much tell you right now), etc.

I haven't investigated if the tank could be removed. It is tight in behind the generator. If I find out that it is somewhat easily removed I will have a new tank put in and all new hoses. After this weekend a new waste system would be a good thing and money well spent to me.

Good, Problem Solved! ... Well, Almost...

 

[firstbase]

This thread has been a bit hard to follow so I'm not going to try to suggest anything other than these "rules".


1) The inlet(s) from the head(s) will be at or very near the top of the tank. Sewage comes in and falls to the bottom.


2) The vent connection should be at the top of the tank. As sewage comes in and drops to the bottom, air exits the tank through the vent.


3) Any outlets are at the bottom of the tank. That's where the sewage is. If you tried to pump out from the top of the tank, you would only get air. In some cases, the outlets may seem to be at the top, but if they are to work, there will be internal drop tubes to pick up from the bottom.


4) Metal and sewage is not a good combination. You're going to have serious corrosion problems. If possible, replace that metal top.


Boat plumbing is simple and intuitive for some people but not for others. If you can't figure this out, I suggest hiring a pro.


BTW: A macerator pump usually has a short shaft sticking out of the motor end. The shaft has a slot on the end. There may be a rubber cover on this. If the pump won't turn, remove the rubber cap and use a screwdriver in the slot to turn it and try to free it up.

Thanks. We were sort of overcome with everything to say the least so wasn't thinking too clearly. Since there are three hoses in the top there have to be others in the bottom. I'm going back tonight and give it a better investigation. For now I have a rag stuffed in the vent line opening and the vents duct taped shut. Just want the smell to dissipate before diving in again. Know how much I would give to have the original smell back!?!?!

 

[firstbase]

I feel it necessary to point out that my lovely wife was actually the one who spent the most time cleaning up the bilge not me. Scrubbing and flushing in the thick of things. Unbelievable woman...and actually smiled at one point doing it. A Saint I tell you..a Saint...

 

[Xsbank]

Never use ANY metal of ANY KIND in a poop system. Never. Get rid of it all, our/your waste products will corrode any metal and then you get to do the cleanup all over again.

 

[sean9c]

If you can get the plate, that the hoses attach to, off the top of the tank could you put a (plastic)thru hull fitting, in the vent hose hole, up from the bottom? Use a thru hull fitting with a 3/4" hose barb.

 

[C lectric]

If the pump out line for the existing tank is at the bottom then consider using a tank that moves that pump out line to the top of the tank.
Yes, it will need a diptube down close the the tank bottom.
Saves the mess if the pump ever decides to quit.

I did mine that way and I can work on the pump without the fear of a partly full tank.
All the hoses join at the tank top.

 

[Cigatoo]

Haven't read the whole thread so if this has been suggested I apologize.

If you go to the Grand Banks owners forum and then to "owners board" then to " repair questions" about 1/2 way down the first page is a topic that covers the repair in depth.

Titled "holding tank discharge replacement" You will have to join if you have not already done so. Link to get you started is below.

IAGBO :: Log in

 

[Marlinmike]

In the end it may just be better to replace the hoses (they have a limited life) along with the holding tank. You can simplify the system if you have access to pump out all the time and do away with mascerator pump/y valves.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

I feel for you firstbase! Had my vacuflush pump explode a few weeks back.

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s3/been-crappy-day-30905.html

Also, check to make sure your vent line is not plugged. There should also be a filter in the vent system.

May I suggest that you take this opportunity to maybe update your crapper system. BTW I have no relationship with the company below. They just provide awesome customer service.

https://www.marinesan.com/

 

[firstbase]

Thanks to everyone for the help/comments. Been working with Peggy and to say she is helpful is an understatement of huge proportions. 3 days of cleaning and we are now able to get on the boat and work in the engine room. Yeah. Have now been able to trace the system and get to know where and what everything is. Looked at simply replacing the tank but it is under the generator and not easily removed. At a minimum I would have to remove the fuel manifold system which sits in front of the tank. Worst case would require moving the manifold and lifting up the generator which sits over top of 2/4 of the tank. What I am doing is replacing the vent connection and probably the whole vent system to install a larger hose. Will have to increase the size of the through hull to do it but it seems the right thing to do. In doing so I am going to remove the top plate and check everything out. Intake fitting and pumpout. Previous owner says that he removed the plate and cut off the copper suction tube which was corroded away. He cut it off and added a piece of hose to the bottom of the tank. Seems to work ok...for now.. but there is still copper in there, I guess at the top near the fitting, and that can't be good on a 30 year old boat. Honestly not sure of his repair so taking this as the opportunity to remove and inspect everything. Hoses all seem to be good. "Sealand Technology" printed on the side is all I could find. Did the wet rag/smell test and get nothing so I believe no permeation. My other issue is the 13' run of the hose from the forward head to the tank. From what I read this is almost double what it should be. Can't exactly move the head so not sure what options are available for that. A second holding tank I guess but not going there for the time being.

 

[dhays]

Peggy is exceedingly knowledgeable and helpful. A pretty impressive combination.

I am not familiar with your boat at all but... given that very long run from the forward head I would be tempted to try and relegate its use to primarily urine. Try to have folks use the aft head for BMs. Depending on the layout and how you use the the boat, this would solve a lot of potential problems with such a long run. (My guess anyway). The other option is to make sure that there is enough flushing action if it is used for BMs.