Forced Air Diesel Heater Exhaust Pipe

[Nomad Willy]

Marco,
I’ve got the longest recommended exhaust run for the Wabasto. It runs from a compartment just aft of the engine compartment to the near center of the stern of the round stern boat. Probably nearly 4’ above the water. It’s insulated along the entire run and that’s good as runs right by a plastic 50 gal. water tank. Been running for 13+ years now and no problem. It was professionally installed.

Never had any of the problems listed above. It works just like my other boat that had the absolute minimum length of exhaust pipe. The Wabasto isn’t w/o negative features like a bit of noise, the need to be cleaned at times running on diesel and the need to be started every 3-4 weeks. That may not be true of all installations though. I don’t know for a fact but I remember when I was shopping I did look at the Wallace and considered everything at the time. The thing I didn’t like was probably fuel consumption. I’m guessing that the significant difference between the two types of heater. How many BTU’s per gallon of burn. Perhaps the Wallace is easier to install too .. ??

But re one comment above saying the Wallace is noisy underway my Wabaso can not be heard underway. I need to step out on deck when it’s cool or cold to be reminded that the Wabasto is on.

Kasanders wrote that the Wallace is “dead quiet”. As I remember they really are.

And FF reminded us that fiberglass and resin structure once burning is hard to put out.

 

[boathealer]

I just finished a "parking heater" install. Full write up here: Diesel Heater Install

For better or worse, I wrapped my exhaust pipe all the way up to the flange connection. The run is about 4ft total (see pic).

I measured some temperatures with the IR gun after running for 30min on high heat:

* Exhaust port right at heater connection --- 500degF
* Exhaust pipe at first muffler connection (~1ft away) --- 380degF
* Exhaust pipe just prior to thru-hull flange (~4ft away) --- 290degF
* Thru-hull double wall outer shell inside boat, not touching fiberglass due to larger-than-fixture through hole (90degF ambient) --- 147degF
* Thru-hull flange outside of boat, separated from fiberglass by thick silicone gasket (90degF ambient) --- 122degF

The "interwebs" seem to indicate that deformation of the glass/resins start to occur around 170degF and flash ignition starts happening around 600degF, depending on about a billion other parameters......

JFYI,
r

 

[NWSeadog]

Ray - Great write up on your diesel heater install. I've been complicating yanking out my old Espar heater and replacing with one of those Chinese heaters. The parts for the Espar cost more then a complete system like the one you installed. Even if they only last a few years I think I'll be dollars ahead with a replacement system.

A couple of questions;
The exhaust temperatures that you measured were they with the insulation on or were they measured prior to adding the insulation?

Also the muffler has a hole in the bottom to let out moisture build up. Have you noticed any exhaust fumes in the engine room?

Thanks again for posting your installation write-up.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

Also the muffler has a hole in the bottom to let out moisture build up. Have you noticed any exhaust fumes in the engine room?

That's the kind of muffler that I would not use in a boat installation. The real Webasto stainless steel muffler doesn't have the little holes in it like the knock-off parking heater mufflers that are just spot welded in a few places. Webasto mufflers look more like the mufflers that I fabricated (and are about $130 last I checked). You can see from boathealer's temperatures that if you run the system for more than a few minutes you should not have moisture build up in the exhaust system. I also took IR temps to make sure that my soldered muffler wouldn't have an issue with heat.

The Planar website says that there is no possibility of carbon monoxide poisoning from a diesel heater. Maybe, but it isn't only carbon monoxide that can hurt you. When cruising, the engine would eat up all the fumes in the engine room. When sitting quietly at anchor, I would be concerned about an exhaust leak in the ER.

 

[boathealer]

A couple of questions;
The exhaust temperatures that you measured were they with the insulation on or were they measured prior to adding the insulation?

The temperatures were measured on the stainless pipe/connections where there is no insulation.

Also the muffler has a hole in the bottom to let out moisture build up. Have you noticed any exhaust fumes in the engine room?

I read all that stuff about the Chinese mufflers leaking exhaust gas. The one I received was a solid straight pipe all the way through the "muffler". There is no outlet anywhere for exhaust to come out along this pipe. The housing is just tack welded to the outside of the pipe and does have the weep hole at the bottom. No, no exhaust detected. My installation is also in a well-ventilated engine room with three fresh air exchange vents on three sides of the boat.

JMHO,
r

 

[boathealer]

That's the kind of muffler that I would not use in a boat installation. The real Webasto stainless steel muffler doesn't have the little holes in it like the knock-off parking heater mufflers that are just spot welded in a few places. Webasto mufflers look more like the mufflers that I fabricated (and are about $130 last I checked). [snip]

See my reply to NWSeadog post above. I see no way for exhaust gases to get out of the muffler that I received with the heater I used. It is a solid pipe straight through. I detected no leaks after running, either.

I would suggest inspecting any muffler to see how it is constructed before using it, however. Based on its construction, I am not sure it does much for noise (at least in my application) and could have probably not used it at all.

 

[rochepoint]

We installed one of these on our Espar, now you really have to be quiet to hear it running........

 

[Nomad Willy]

Mike,
Same pipe dia. as Wabasto?

 

[Al]

Question: Do these unit put moisture in the air? I have observed fogging of windows with these units?

Tom, Not sure about any moisture, they are a oil fired unit unlike propane. I have a Wallas onboard and been around other similar units. There is no reason for moisture to develop, Just saying

Another grumpy day in paradice

 

[Al]

I am thinking of a Wallas so I can run it while underway. Space is a concern.

Are the exhausts loud? Some at the dock you can hear several docks away.

Didn't see your following post- Our wallas is as quite as a laying rock. and the heat is great!!

 

[Al]

I am thinking of a Wallas so I can run it while underway. Space is a concern.

Are the exhausts loud? Some at the dock you can hear several docks away.

Tom- here is the dealer site. https://scanmarineusa.com/ The two brothers who operate and own this franchise are the best darn helpers on any question that you have. I DIY my unit which says a huge amount as I am two left handed on most projects. They are a snap to install given the required exaust requirement which in your case would not be a deal breaker.

 

[rochepoint]

Mike,
Same pipe dia. as Wabasto?

Hi Eric, they are avaiable in 5 different sizes from: https://www.suremarineservice.com/Shop/?search=muffler


All are approved for marine use, not like the other style and very well made..

 

[Marco Flamingo]

It is a solid pipe straight through.

In which case, it would not be a muffler.

Based on its construction, I am not sure it does much for noise (at least in my application) and could have probably not used it at all.

It wouldn't do anything if it really is a solid straight pipe through the muffler. They are supposed to have little holes drilled in the pipe to allow some of the concussive pressure (i.e., noise) to dissipate into the larger chamber, which is full of fiberglass batting. That is what muffles the sound.

The two little mufflers that I received with my heaters were of slightly different interior design. I could look straight through one. The other had a slight bend. Both had tiny holes in the pipe that were difficult to see. Both of them leaked. Putting my hand over one end and blowing into the other showed that they didn't hold pressure and leaked around the spot weld on the outer casing. That was enough for me not to use them in the boat. They are intended to be hung underneath the body of a vehicle.

The mufflers that I fabricated were both more than twice as long as the little stainless mufflers included with the parking heaters. Mine are more like the SS Espar muffler shown above. As with glass pack mufflers on vehicles, the length of the muffler makes all the difference. My second build is essentially silent. I didn't get anything like that when testing the little mufflers provided. I sold one on Ebay and I think I still have the other one.

Based on vehicle glass packs (from my highschool days), I made a modification to my latest and most successful muffler. After drilling about 20 1/8th inch holes in the length of the pipe that would be inside the outer tube, I then used a nail punch to deform the hole on the upstream side. Think of the holes in a cheese grater that are deformed on one side to "grab" the cheese (which is then grated). My deformation, although reversed, provides a tiny bit of back pressure inside the muffler and makes the holes more effective. I think that is what made my second muffler much quieter than my first. Worth the effort in my opinion. You can see the construction technique here in the "gill slits" on the inner pipe in a glass pack type of muffler.

I should say that the copper tubing that I used was in my scrap pile. 1.5" copper tubing and end caps aren't cheap. That's what made it such a bargain over purchasing the Espar stainless muffler.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Hi Eric, they are avaiable in 5 different sizes from: https://www.suremarineservice.com/Shop/?search=muffler


All are approved for marine use, not like the other style and very well made..

OK good,
I assumed they were from a heater manufacturer.
That’s great. That means anybody w an Espar or Wabasto can do this.
I don’t consider the noise frommy Wabasto a problem.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

I don’t consider the noise from my Wabasto a problem.

Have you asked the other boats in the anchorage?

I just bought my first boat with a generator (non-operational at the moment). I may become "one of them people" who ruins a peaceful place so that I can have an ice cube (or whatever generators are used for).

 

[koliver]

In which case, it would not be a muffler.



It wouldn't do anything if it really is a solid straight pipe through the muffler. They are supposed to have little holes drilled in the pipe to allow some of the concussive pressure (i.e., noise) to dissipate into the larger chamber, which is full of fiberglass batting. That is what muffles the sound.


How does that work on a heater like Espar or Webasto, that doesn't have concussive forces in the making of noise?

In my experience with both brands, the noise is more like that from a jet engine, as the flame is from fuel pumped at a steady pressure into a chamber, much like in a household oil furnace. The noise is more of a roar than a series of bangs.

 

[Al]

Wallas units DO NOT REQUIRE A MUFFLER. They are inherently quite. the pipe is wrapped to the hull outlet.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Mako I’m sure the Wabasto is quieter than a generator.

koliver wrote;
“In my experience with both brands, the noise is more like that from a jet engine, as the flame is from fuel pumped at a steady pressure into a chamber, much like in a household oil furnace. The noise is more of a roar than a series of bangs.”

Exactly

 

[Marco Flamingo]

How does that work on a heater like Espar or Webasto, that doesn't have concussive forces in the making of noise?

Sound waves are a concussive force. That's what wiggles your ear drums. No wiggle, no sound. Pitch is the "bangs" being close together. These furnaces produce a turbine engine high pitch sound rather than a piston engine sound, but noise is noise and can be muffled.

The muffler really quieted both my Espar and recently a replacement for an older Webasto. I was talking to a friend on the dock and he asked me how much the muffler quieted the heater. I told him he could listen right then and pointed to the heater exhaust. It was on at the time with the exhaust a few feet from where he was standing, it just wasn't noticeable.

The Webasto that I removed didn't have a muffler and sounded like a whining vacuum cleaner. A vacuum cleaner without a muffler that is (because they do make mufflers to get rid of that high pitched whine as well). https://www.thinkvacuums.com/hayden-12-inch-cylinder-muffler-752020-15.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjw17n1BRDEARIsAFDHFew_MbSbaXg8rec3GWaMU7Bh-FX1Unek9z5hYLcN3_qCFu1TWZBcaoEaAsi6EALw_wcB

 

[Nomad Willy]

Marco they appear to be plastic.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

Marco they appear to be plastic.

Yes, that muffler is for a vacuum cleaner where the exhaust temperatures don't exceed the melting point of PVC. Best to use metal for a diesel heater. What is interesting about vacuum cleaner exhaust silencers is the statement that their 12" model is more effective than their 6" model. That is the same claim as on the Cherry Bomb muffler website. Longer is better. That's part of the difference between my homemade 12" muffler and the leaky 4" mufflers that comes standard with the Chinese parking heaters on Ebay.

As an example of how effective a glass pack muffler can be, a highschool friend bought a glass pack muffler for his 57 Chevy (then affordable for highschool students). He took it into the basement and put his .22 rifle into it and shot it at a target. Not very loud. He continued to target shoot with the .22 that evening while his parents watched TV upstairs. He even invited friends over to try it out.

I'm not recommending this, but glass pack mufflers can be quite effective for noise reduction. They have a reputation of losing their effectiveness over time because of the breakdown of the fiberglass. But there is a difference in the effect of a '57 Chevy 365 V8 pounding on the fiberglass compared to a wimpy Espar parking heater. I'm guessing that my muffler will outlast the Espar. Maybe even my Chinese knockoff.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Marco you must be talking about the intake air .. not exhaust.

 

[Moonfish]

I am thinking of a Wallas so I can run it while underway. Space is a concern.

Are the exhausts loud? Some at the dock you can hear several docks away.

Here's a quick scene from our Wallas Spartan install video that shows the difference between our neighbor's Webasto exhaust and our Wallas exhaust:

https://www.facebook.com/Pacific.NW.Boater/videos/645392649606188/

 

[Marco Flamingo]

Marco you must be talking about the intake air .. not exhaust.

Nope, my reference to the PVC muffler used on a vacuum cleaner was only to show that high-pitched turbine exhaust sounds can also be muffled. My homemade metal glass pack mufflers are on my diesel heater exhausts. My experience was that the Webasto was really, really obnoxiously loud. Part of that was that I was running it under quiet covered moorage with the exhaust pointed at a boat right next to me. It was louder and more irritating than shown in the video. The reason was the noise was being reflected back at me (called an "echo" in fancy acoustical terminology ). When I went over and stood on his finger pier I decided that I wouldn't want to listen to that.

That is what might make the above video inaccurate. The neighbor's exhaust was probably pointed at his boat. Loud. His exhaust is pointed away from his boat. Not loud. It is like running a generator in a quiet anchorage. It could be that the quietest spot is aboard the vessel running the generator. Same with being behind a car with a loud exhaust. How can they stand it? Because it's pointed at you, not them.

I do also have mufflers on the intake combustion air on both of my diesel heaters. They only make a difference if you are really close to the heater, which is the case on my C Dory. It's a CD 16, so I'm close to everything.

I also made little socks out of polyester batting to fit over the end of the intake for the air to be heated. The heaters come with a coarse screen to keep out larger debris, but I read a report where somebody was having trouble with insects getting in. They get burnt on the heat exchanger and then the smell is circulated. Probably not the best way to handle a bug problem.

 

[Pau Hana]

Here's a quick scene from our Wallas Spartan install video that shows the difference between our neighbor's Webasto exhaust and our Wallas exhaust:

https://www.facebook.com/Pacific.NW.Boater/videos/645392649606188/

Darren's video is spot on accurate. We've been with Wallas since 2013 or so.

The DT-40 and now Spartan heaters are quiet exhaust wise- our neighbors with the AirTop heaters, various DBW hydronic systems, and Espar heaters are noticeably louder outside the boat.

The install is extremely easy as well- decide the location for the heater (it does not have to be in the engine spaces), run your ducting and exhaust, run your power and fuel to the Wallas, install the remote, and enjoy!

 

[Moonfish]

That is what might make the above video inaccurate. The neighbor's exhaust was probably pointed at his boat. Loud. His exhaust is pointed away from his boat. Not loud. It is like running a generator in a quiet anchorage. It could be that the quietest spot is aboard the vessel running the generator. Same with being behind a car with a loud exhaust. How can they stand it? Because it's pointed at you, not them.

Marco, you make a valid point regarding acoustics. However, the effect of our boat creating a sound containment field for amplifying the neighbor's exhaust noise would be very minimal, as their heater exhaust is within five inches of their transom and actually points out past the piling and toward the fairway behind us. Were it placed like ours and amidship on their hull, then yes, it would be much louder.

And although our heater exhaust does point at the marina entrance and we do not have a boat next to us on the port side, I don't believe its enough to deem the video as inaccurate. You can actually stand there in that very spot a third of the way up the side deck directly above our exhaust and still hear the neighbor's heater and not ours. When we had the boat turned around in our slip and our exhaust was pointing directly at their boat, they literally did not know when our heater was running.

For those who have the Wallas Dt series heaters - which are known as being "quiet" - this new Spartan is noticeably quieter. And hotter in terms of BTU output. The new model even has the guys at Scan Marine really impressed.

 

[ksanders]

The wallas marine furnaces are going to be much quieter than the espar, webasto, etc...

That is because the webasto, espar, etc... furnaces need a high velocity air stream to work. They operate by spraying fuel into a high velocity air stream, in much the same way a jet engine does. The sound is even similar to a jet engine.

The Wallas furnaces are different. Fuel drips into a burn pot that has just enough air blowing by to allow for efficient combustion.

There is really no comparison in sound levels.

I have just replaced my second Wallas furnace with one of the new viking models. The old ones had 27,000 hours and 25,000 hours respectivly.

The old ones were repairable, but had served me well, and earned their retirement. At that age the failure scenario on both of them was a combustion blower that had slowed down, causing coke to build up in the combustion chamber, and eventually a failure of the combustion chamber which is a fairly expensive part.

The new models will not fail like that as they have RPM sensors on the combustion fans and will go into alarm and shut down when the combustion fan starts failing before other damage can occure.

 

[roddy]

Earlier post mentioned Planar parts availability. Not as widely stocked as Espar and Webasto, dealers have parts in stock.
No problem with Planar parts. They have been in business for long time. They build a solid product at 1/3 price of Espar or Webasto. Wiring harness, plugs and electronics are solid. Espar and Webasto have steel heat exchanger, stainless flame tube and sophisticated fuel and ignition system vs Planar's aluminum heat exchanger, steel flame tube and glow plug ignition system.
Have Planar hydronic 14 OTC mini with PU27 controller for last 3 years. No problems. Same noise level as DBW 2010.
Buy from dealer not online as dealer is good for advice on install and maintenance! https://planarheaters.com/
Have owned Webasto DBW 2010 unit in past, excellent unit but $$$$.
Planar's are designed and manufactured in Russia I believe.
Maybe they moved production to China, hence the knock offs?
Many European cars and trucks have factory hydronic gas heaters or diesel if its a diesel.
Owned a 1974 VW Beatle with Blaupunkt gas heater and radio...

 

[Tator]

Owned a 1974 VW Beatle with Blaupunkt gas heater and radio...[/QUOTE]

Had a 67 VW Westphalia camper with a Stewart Warner gas heater! It heated up fast and sure helped on those 10 below Kansas winters. First started dating my wife in it. Pull over anywhere, pop the top and put the bed down. Wish I still had it as I believe they are big bucks as collectors items.

Tator

 

[Hippocampus]

Would mention if your boat goes on the hard for winter it’s a really good idea to stuff a oily rag into the exhaust. I didn’t and the nozzle of my Wesbasto needed replacing.