Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 09-19-2020, 06:12 PM   #1
Veteran Member
 
City: ocracoke island, north carolina
Country: us
Vessel Name: Lazy Grady
Vessel Model: 1992 Grady White Explorer 250 hp outboard
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 43
Smile DC and AC APPLIANCES

9/19/20. Need best source for advice as to what appliances to purchase for my 24 Cuddy Cabin Walk Around Outboard? I am up fitting it with a solar system on the hard top complete with a solar source heat exchanger for hot water. Plans are for a 500 watt solar system. Thinking a refrigerator only (no freezer compartment) in the cabin with a microwave toaster oven mounted above. I have the available space measurements. Plans are for a 24x60 combination storage box for a freezer and ice maker in the cock pit. This is to be a custom designed box geared towards ac and dc sources of power. I will add on other appliances/electronics as storage space and power allow. Two high tech type energy storage batteries will be added. With all this, plans are for a trip south from Ocracoke Island with passage to the Abacos for a several months winter stay. I will be obtaining experienced, professional help for the up fit.

What a mouth ful! HELP
__________________
Advertisement

hwclark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2020, 06:56 AM   #2
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 20,980
If it has a motor the best choice for tools is with an old style universal motor.

These have brushes and simply become less powerful if the voltage is low or the wave form from the inverter sucks.

Today folks choose battery tools , but when the job is big it doesn't get finished.

Who wants a half driven screw? Or a half mixed cake mix?
__________________

FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2020, 08:00 AM   #3
Valued Technical Contributor
 
DavidM's Avatar
 
City: Litchfield, Ct
Country: USA
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 5,545
That is an ambitious plan for the limited space of a 24'er. Not sure if the 500 watts includes the solar water heater, but realize that they should be totally different types of systems.

I helped a friend install a solar water heating panel on his 45' trawler. It was not based on electric power for water heating. It had a solar collector for lack of a better word that heated the hot water directly. It did have a small electric solar panel that powered the circulating pump. It worked ok and did heat up his 6 gallon hot water heater tank to maybe 100 F on a sunny day in the summer. It probably wouldn't do so good in the winter.

A microwave oven will pull a lot of power. Say you are cooking a whole 5 lb chicken, heating it from 40 deg fridge temp to 180 final cooking temp. That will take 700 btu net or at least 1,500 btu gross (heat losses while cooking and microwave efficiency). That is about 500 watt hours or about 1/4 of a typical daily watt hour pickup from a sunny day with 500 watts of panels.

The point is propane can be a better source of heating energy than solar.

Also a freezer and particularly an icemaker are very energy intensive. I would look at a portable efficient fridge/freezer like the Engel.

In the Bahamas think about how you are going to reprovision. You won't have a lot of room for cold food storage so you will probably have to visit grocery stores often, at least weekly. Few places in the bahamas have the kind of grocery stores we have in the states, so you should carefully think about the kinds of food you will be eating to minimize cold storage.

FWIW my avatar at the left shows a 23' cuddy cabin that I stayed overnight on occasionally, so I appreciate your size limitations.

Good luck on your setup.

David
DavidM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2020, 08:08 AM   #4
Guru
 
OldDan1943's Avatar
 
City: Aventura FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Kinja
Vessel Model: American Tug 34 #116
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 6,070
Brand name of the boat?
24ft for two plus all the stuff you will need? IMO, you are very optimistic when it comes to creature comforts. It will be 'camping.'

What type of head. Shower in the cockpit?
How much fresh water?

No generator?
Tell us about your batteries.
What is the output of your engine alternator?
Inverter? What size?
Microwave, about 1800 watts. Dont know about toaster ovens.
Gotta have a propane stove. I would limit the propane to a one or two burner stove and mount the grill outside. Rectangular grills seem to have more cooking area. Get a cast iron plate to fit the grill.
Get used to electrical 'load shedding'.
Provisioning, LOTS canned goods. Put them in boxes strong enough for you to walk on.
Portable freezer, 12vt?
forget the ice maker.
Toilet paper..... LOTS and LOTS..... stow it everywhere.

Battery operated tools.... price keeps falling and many times they include an extra battery.
__________________
The meek will inherit the earth but, the brave will inherit the seas.
OldDan1943 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2020, 02:21 PM   #5
Veteran Member
 
City: ocracoke island, north carolina
Country: us
Vessel Name: Lazy Grady
Vessel Model: 1992 Grady White Explorer 250 hp outboard
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 43
Boat 24' Grady White Explorer Walk Around, Cuddy Cabin with gill bracket for 2009 Yamaha 250 hp Outboard with less than 600 hours.

Compost type head to replace existing porta poti in cabin step down.

50-gallon fresh water tank to replace 50-gallon auxilary fuel tank. Still have 100-gallon fuel tank.

No generator planned. Solar 500 watt system to be installed with at least two storage batteries.

Plan at least 2 new state of the art storage batteries plus existing 2 wet cells and/or replace 2 wet cells as needed?

Not sure about Yamaha 250hp outboard alternator? Plan was not to depend on it for up fit needs just the basics as it powers now?

Inverter to be sized based on Solar System 3 panel 500 watt system?

Small bottle propane grill to be in plan. Thinking a Weber as I use domestically to be used outside on top of storage/fish box in cockpit and stored in a protected area.

Not sure what "electrical load sheeding is" as it applies to my project?

Have two boat built in fish boxes I plan to use for canned/dry goods. They are to be water tight.

The ice maker and freezer are planned to be located in a storage/fish box to be located in cockpit on 24"x60" area of deck where the 100-gallon fuel tank deck access panel is assuming continuous wattage needs from solar can accomodate the two appliaces plus a "small refrigerator only" to be located in the cabin?

Specific suggestions as to battery operated tools and general tools are appreciated. I plan to have a water proof storage box for such items mounted on the dive platform above the gill bracket on the stern.

Plan is to have numerous, properly sized plastic storage boxes to be located on the cockpit, port side wall. Will use starboard side for 4 fishing rods.

I REALLY APPRECIATED YOUR INTEREST. PLEASE REVIEW MY REPONSES AND GIVE ME YOUR THOUGHTS?
hwclark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2020, 02:24 PM   #6
Veteran Member
 
City: ocracoke island, north carolina
Country: us
Vessel Name: Lazy Grady
Vessel Model: 1992 Grady White Explorer 250 hp outboard
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 43
Your comments are certainly valuable. Please advise as to the tools I need to take along as well as small DC sourced applicances; mixer etc.

Thanks so much for your interest!
hwclark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2020, 04:59 PM   #7
Guru
 
OldDan1943's Avatar
 
City: Aventura FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Kinja
Vessel Model: American Tug 34 #116
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 6,070
Need an amp meter so you can monitor the draw on the batteries. Consider a battery monitoring meter so you know where you are with the amps.
Electrical load shedding is when you have to shut something off so you can turn something on, hence the need for an amp meter.
Couple handheld VHF radios with GPS and installed charts.
Up to date paper charts of some description.
Forget the stand alone ice maker.
A method of storing the hot water.
Cockpit hand held shower, hot and cold water. Maybe a method of a bit of privacy too
I guess a small portable 12 vt freezer chest might work. Chose carefully because of the amperage draw.
Head selection: your decision but, cut the cushions so you dont have to wake someone up to get to it.
LED lighting through the boat, as necessary.
One or two small 12vt compartment fans.
Per electric tools: I think you would be better off with a small tool box full of manual tools. I brought my first used boat (N46) down from Long Island to Ft Lauderdale with 4 screw driver, water pump pliers, needle nose, slip jaw pliers, 2 adjustable wrenches, couple of adjustable wrenches.
12vt mixer? No idea but, they are available on the internet.
Make sure you secure the grill .... You dont need it flopping around because of some idiot's wake.
Couple of sweat suits and rain gear.
I still say it will be like camping. LOL I do hope you and your partner has a good sense of humor.
__________________
The meek will inherit the earth but, the brave will inherit the seas.
OldDan1943 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2020, 05:23 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
City: San Diego, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 42' Uniflite Double Cabin
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by hwclark View Post
Boat 24' Grady White Explorer Walk Around, Cuddy Cabin with gill bracket for 2009 Yamaha 250 hp Outboard with less than 600 hours.

Compost type head to replace existing porta poti in cabin step down.

50-gallon fresh water tank to replace 50-gallon auxilary fuel tank. Still have 100-gallon fuel tank.

No generator planned. Solar 500 watt system to be installed with at least two storage batteries.

Plan at least 2 new state of the art storage batteries plus existing 2 wet cells and/or replace 2 wet cells as needed?

Not sure about Yamaha 250hp outboard alternator? Plan was not to depend on it for up fit needs just the basics as it powers now?

Inverter to be sized based on Solar System 3 panel 500 watt system?

Small bottle propane grill to be in plan. Thinking a Weber as I use domestically to be used outside on top of storage/fish box in cockpit and stored in a protected area.

Not sure what "electrical load sheeding is" as it applies to my project?

Have two boat built in fish boxes I plan to use for canned/dry goods. They are to be water tight.

The ice maker and freezer are planned to be located in a storage/fish box to be located in cockpit on 24"x60" area of deck where the 100-gallon fuel tank deck access panel is assuming continuous wattage needs from solar can accomodate the two appliaces plus a "small refrigerator only" to be located in the cabin?

Specific suggestions as to battery operated tools and general tools are appreciated. I plan to have a water proof storage box for such items mounted on the dive platform above the gill bracket on the stern.

Plan is to have numerous, properly sized plastic storage boxes to be located on the cockpit, port side wall. Will use starboard side for 4 fishing rods.

I REALLY APPRECIATED YOUR INTEREST. PLEASE REVIEW MY REPONSES AND GIVE ME YOUR THOUGHTS?
I would look at the cooler style fridges, one popular brand is Engel. You can get them single or dual zone (fridge or fridge/freezer) in a variety of sizes. They tend to be more efficient than front opening fridges. They are very efficient and you can get them in a variety of sizes, will run on 12V DC or 120V AC.

Inverter size doesn't have much to do with your Solar capacity. It's more about what sorts of devices you want to run, and the bigger the inverter, the larger your battery bank should be to support it's maximum output, 500W of solar doesn't provide much instantaneous power. The solar is there to fill the battery back up after you've used some of your capacity. Larger inverters will use more power at 'idle' than small ones. It's typically 5-10% of the output rating is used at 'idle' and varies by brand and quality. For a microwave you'll want to have at least a 1500, preferably 2000 watt, and it should be a good pure sine inverter. I wouldn't waste money on a cheap modified sine if you want to run any electronics at all.

Ideally you'll use all your items with 12V directly and only turn on an inverter when you have to run something that just isn't available in 12V.

4 standard flooded batteries would be minimum to run an inverter that size, and it won't do it for a long time, even with a 500 watt solar panel helping out. 4 lithiums should do better but they cost a lot more of course.

Your batteries need to be all of the same type in single bank. You can't add two new state of the art batteries (interpreted as lithium) into the same system as 2 flooded batteries. If you are going lithium, the old flooded batteries need to be recycled. All of your charging sources need to be configured for any changes to battery type as well.

Load shedding is turning off items to remain below your system capacity. If you have one say 1500 watt inverter and your gf is blow drying her hair, and you get a hankering for a hot snack, better shed the hair dryer load before powering up the microwave.
sbman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2020, 05:35 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
City: San Diego, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 42' Uniflite Double Cabin
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by hwclark View Post
The ice maker and freezer are planned to be located in a storage/fish box to be located in cockpit on 24"x60" area of deck where the 100-gallon fuel tank deck access panel is assuming continuous wattage needs from solar can accomodate the two appliaces plus a "small refrigerator only" to be located in the cabin?
Missed this part. 500 watts of solar should net you on average 3 Kw-hr of potential power per day, varying between 2-4 Kw-hr depending on your lattitude, season and panel alignment. This is POTENTIAL power, so if your batteries are full and nothing is turned on to consume the power it's never created.

An efficient 12V fridge is going to consume about 500 watts per day in hot weather so worst case if you are only getting 2KW per day from your solar, that's 1/4 of your power budget for the fridge. A small combo unit (12V, 60 liter chest fridge/freezer) should do about the same power draw and you get both in one unit. Having three appliances run full time is probably going to be beyond the 500 watt solar system. Fridge, Freezer, Ice Maker, plus you'll also need lighting, your microwave, any electronics you use, fresh water pump, etc...
sbman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2020, 07:05 PM   #10
Guru
 
boatpoker's Avatar
 
City: Port Credit
Country: Ontario
Vessel Name: DIRT FREE
Vessel Model: Benford Fantail 38
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,766
500Watts isn't that a lot of square footage for this size boat ?
__________________
If you can live with the consequences, go for it - wg
Y'am what y'am an' thats' all that y'am - Popeye
I had an allergic reality - Jillie the Bean
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2020, 07:16 PM   #11
Senior Member
 
City: San Diego, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 42' Uniflite Double Cabin
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
500Watts isn't that a lot of square footage for this size boat ?
Not with modern panels. A Hyundai 380 watt panel is 39" x 76". Two of those get you 720 watts in around a 6' x 6' area, good size for a small hardtop over an aft deck.
sbman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2020, 05:50 AM   #12
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 1,488
Have done something similar. You have to do an energy budget with inputs, outputs, and storage.

First, your inputs. 500 watts of panels will produce around 200 AH of 12vdc power each day on average. Little less in winter, and of course cloudy days. Leaving aside the Yamaha alternator, this is your max potential energy input.

Second, your outputs. Refrigeration and freezer are, by far, your greatest consumers. I too went route of custom built boxes with separate fridge. I used isotherm 12v systems with air cooled compressors. Between the two, about 80-100 AH consumption per day. Beware, with 3 inches of insulation, the boxes get pretty small pretty quickly, but that's your call. The Engel boxes are well regarded and probably less expensive than building your own. For ice, I bought a bunch of covered ice cube trays. Adler Barbour also makes an aluminum ice cube tray for their fridge conversions that are great, but expensive. Cubes are pretty big so they last

Cooking. Maybe I missed it, but beyond the BBQ and microwave, not sure how you plan to cook. Microwave does take a lot of energy, but rarely gets used for more than a few minutes. Rough term, it will consume around 1 to 1.5 AH at 12v for each minute of cooking. Other electrical means that are possible with solar are induction hot plates and instant pot cookers, either of which would consume around 30-40 Amps for each hour of cooking (very rough numbers). Personally, if I were in your situation, I would go with a small propane stove and oven to preserve energy. I might also use an instapot because it's so dang convenient.

Other outputs. If you leave any nav electronics on while at anchor such as radar or even VHF, they will be your next biggest energy draw and can easily draw 30+ AH per day. PC and tablet charging also adds up to an easy 20 AH.

In the end, your overall energy consumption will be in the 150-200 AH range. If you keep cooking towards propane. It's actually a pretty healthy amount of power - sailors do it all the time.

Storage - batteries. You're generating 200 AH per day and consuming almost all of it. Because there will be about 6 daylight hours (25%) where you will be running off solar vs batteries, you could minimally size your batteries in the 200 usable AH range which would give you some buffer but not much. I'd probably shoot for at least 250, 300 would be preferable.

Why do I say usable AH? Standard G27-ish sized batteries have roughly 100 AH capacity. Lead acid batteries should not be depleted below 50%. Lithium and Fireflies should not go below 80%. So I'd go 3-4 lithium (240-320 usable AH) or 5-6 lead acid (250-300). Lead acid will last a few seasons under this type of usage. The lithium will last 3x-5x longer. Long range cost will be the same. Lithium will weigh 200 lbs less.

Inverter. Would go with some flavor of pure sine wave 2000 watt.

Its been quite a few years since I tinkered with 12vdc appliances like coffee makers and blenders, but I found them to be severely lacking and expensive. Choices are limited and they were poorly made compared to the highly competitive small home-appliance choices. Go with an inverter and 120vac

Power tools. I do everything with dewalt 20v lithium these days. I splurged for a pair of 5 amp batteries for meaty tasks.

Sounds like a great trip. Very doable with right attitude. You have plenty of power, but do need to be careful about hi-draw consumers like cooking elements.

Peter
__________________
M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Trawler
Current Location: Ensenada MX
mvweebles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2020, 07:57 PM   #13
Guru
 
C lectric's Avatar
 
City: Gibsons, B.C.
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Island Pride
Vessel Model: xxxx
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,011
Look into a larger alternator for the engine if it is available. When running, the alternator can likely put out much more current than the panels so bulk charge will be quicker. Also the bigger alternator can carry the running loads of the boat and still put back more power than the panels most likely. Then the panels can finish the job when you arrive and maintain the batts.
In case you are wondering do not disconnect the panels when running as they will help carry any loads and recharge the batts.

Tools: What does the engine need. Metric? ensure you have a set of combination metric wrenches and a socket set with a plug socket. 1/4 dr and 3/8 dr set. The boat likely needs inch tools. same comments. Screwdrivers-good ones, not neccessarily expensive, or risk ruining the fastener.
A hand drill , yes they are still around although maybe from and old tool/antique place, and a small set of drill bits. Check for replacement chucks though that can handle the standard round bits. THose too are available. Google.

If you must have battery tools then go lithium with a fast charger. If you don't go for a large inverter then ensure you have one for the tool's battery charger. Maybe some tool mfgr offers a 12V charger.

I use a Dometic chest type fridge/freezer in addition to the regular fridge.

THe chest unit needs a cover to keep the sun and rain off. Made mine of Sunbrella, a light grey and it is held above the unit, NOT on it, NOT wrapping it. Heavily 303 it to waterproof it. White would likely be better though.
THe air must circulate between the cover and the freezer or it won't keep the unit cool or as cool as possible. Do not allow the cover to be in more contact than absolutely what cannot be avoided especially on the top. My cover is sloped over the chest top so no touching except where the cover drapes over the front.

Combined they are battery eaters when the freezer is used as a freezer. Both units have the Danfoss BD35 units so they are efficient BUT combined they eat batteries especially when the chest unit is used as a freezer.
I live in a much cooler area than you will be in. Sun is more limited but the temp. is cooler so maybe a trade off.

I only have 260W of panels and they do fine IF the sun is available. If not then I have one day with the two units before I have to plug in.

If used as two fridges then two to maybe three days with moderate sun.

Electronics: already commented on but many electronics never truly shut off. THey are sources of ghost loads using a few milliamps to maintain the ability to be instant on or sense you pushing the on/off button. My recent radar uses 0.8A even though it is supposedly off. So I installed an on/off switch to kill it entirely.

Watch out for those ghost load items, new vhf, radar, sounders, plotters, those ghost loads add up.
C lectric is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2020, 12:01 AM   #14
Senior Member
 
City: San Diego, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Hatteras 48 LRC
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 134
I would seriously consider a small portable genset. Less than $1k for a 2kw honda or Yamaha. Add 1-2 lithium batteries and a little solar. If you have space Keep existing batts if in good condition for engine starting. Propane for cooking. Run it as needed to top off the litium batts. You might only need to run it a couple of hours per day especially if you have sun. I think adding 4 lithiums and associated stuff will cost $4k and if you drain the from cooking you will need a lot of solar and a lot of sun to charge them. you can get by with a smaller inverter if you eliminate cooking from your electrical load.
READY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2020, 06:23 AM   #15
Valued Technical Contributor
 
DavidM's Avatar
 
City: Litchfield, Ct
Country: USA
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 5,545
With the portable genset described above, you need a largish alternator to charge faster. Your two lithium batteries can easily accept 100 amps, but that may be too much continuous load for the Honda. A 75 amp charger should work.

David
DavidM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2020, 07:45 AM   #16
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 1,488
500w of solar is a lot - OP really should have few issues, though cloudy days may take a bit more battery than planned, but even with a generator battery storage will be desireable. The only reason I'd carry a generator is for AC if that's desired. Otherwise, I'd put the money in solar.

To answer the original OP exam question: I wouldn't bother with DC appliances - everything I've seen is junk. But if you'd like to see for yourself, stop at any mega-truckstop. They always have a section of 12vdc appliances. Or if JC Whitney is still around, they used to carry a bunch too. I do think you'll be much happier with a PSW inverter and 120vac small appliances.

BTW - from another thread, I'm told the member price on these 105ah Lithium Batteries from Costco is $1400 for a pair ($700/each). Pretty cheap - and only 23-lbs each. You may want to read the entire TF thread though - there is a compare/contrast video review on the batteries that is worth while. Cases on these are a bit thin.

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/...tml#post925847

Peter
__________________

__________________
M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Trawler
Current Location: Ensenada MX
mvweebles is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012
×