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01-11-2021, 11:11 AM
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#1
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Guru
City: Kilmarnock VA
Vessel Name: Wandering Star
Vessel Model: PSN40
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,393
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Bladder tanks
As with a lot of smaller boats, storage is an issue, and that's especially true on ours while we're cruising. Another problem is the small 40 gallon water capacity we have. It's just my wife Liz and me & neither of us will entertain the idea of skipping a shower for a day. We both like to shower in the morning and at least rinse off in the evening ,especially after a hot day or a cooling dip in salty or brackish water. I'm content with showering in the cockpit in warm weather and even bought one of those 5 gallon solar camping shower things that will give me 2-3 or more decent rinses.
Anyway, the poly tank that Mainship used takes up a good amount of what would be useable stowage space under the cockpit. I have a plan to put a shelf under the cockpit spanning the 4 longitudinal stringers and lay a flexible bladder tank on the shelf. It will take a minimal amount of plumbing to extend the supply line and fill tube.
Not being familiar with this type of tankage, what are others experience with bladder tanks? I'm most interested in finding out if we'll be able to actually get close to the 50 gallon capacity with a flexible tank or if a lot of the capacity isn't useable due to the design. I know that ,because of the placement of the pickup port in the current tank, we probably only have 35 gallons or less of useable water. Going from a 40 gallon to 50 would be a big deal for us. I guess we really are plebeians because a lot of cruising couples could hardly brush their teeth with the capacity we carry!
The first 2 pictures are of the area that I'm proposing a shelf be installed for the flex tank. Kindly ignore my swim platform bonding job...it was hot as heck under there so the cables never got fastened.
The next pic is of the current tank & location under the cockpit and lastly ,the 50 gallon bladder tank I want to use.
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-Shawn-
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01-11-2021, 11:36 AM
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#2
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Senior Member
City: Solomons MD.
Vessel Name: Sun Runner
Vessel Model: 1985 Mainship 34 Trawler MK III
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 488
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Somehow on my Mainship they shoe horned a 200 gal. fuel tank down there. I think they had to install it b-4 the deck. I'd look at replacing the stock tank with something bigger. That would save running another fill, vent and water line.
On mine the water is outboard on the port side by the engine. Probably where your fuel tanks are. I added another tank behind it plumbed to a 3 way valve.
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01-11-2021, 11:55 AM
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#3
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Guru
City: Kilmarnock VA
Vessel Name: Wandering Star
Vessel Model: PSN40
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,393
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The reason I'm looking at the Plastimo tank is because A) it'll give us another 20% capacity (in theory) & B) There's only 12-14" of overhead clearance under the cockpit so a conventional tank wont fit and since it's wasted space anyway, I'd like to use it.
I would like to just do away with the existing tank to give us more room to store other junk. Plus, when we rebuilt the salon door (if you're looking, it's SALON, Mr RT Firefly, NOT SALOON! ), I added 2 -2x4 stanchions that run from the 2 inboard stringers up to the underside of the cockpit to support the previously unsupported threshold, so that forced me to move the tank aft at least 6-8".
I'm not worried about the plumbing part. As long as the new flex tank has no problem supplying the pressure pump that's mounted under the cockpit anyway.
__________________
-Shawn-
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01-11-2021, 11:59 AM
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#4
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Guru
City: AR
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,514
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The average lifespan of even top quality ($$$) bladder tanks is only about 15 years, vs the indefinite lifespan of top quality plastics. Looking at your photos, I'd bet real money that Ronco Plastics has a size and shape that'll be what you want. They make TOP quality thick-walled water and waste tanks for a very reasonable price and have more than 400 shapes and sizes, over 100 of which are non-rectangular, AND they install fittings in the sizes and locations specified by the customer when they make the tank. There are retailers who sell Ronco tanks, but Ronco sells direct for a much lower price...and they're great to work with.
Their current marine catalog is here Ronco Plastics marine Tanks Because so many people have told 'em that their previous catalog is so much easier to search, they left that one up too Ronco Plastics old marine catalog.
As you look for a tank, keep in mind that there's no top or bottom on any of 'em until the fittings go in...and you get to decided where they go. So feel free to rotate 'em, flip 'em end for end...orient 'em any way you want to.
--Peggie
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01-11-2021, 12:17 PM
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#5
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Guru
City: Rochester, NY
Vessel Name: Hour Glass
Vessel Model: Chris Craft 381 Catalina
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 7,538
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12 - 14 inches of height shouldn't be an issue for fitting a standard tank. Just have to find one the right shape. My original water tank is only 10 inches tall due to the space it's squeezed into.
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01-11-2021, 12:26 PM
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#6
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Guru
City: AR
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,514
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(if you're looking, it's SALON, Mr RT Firefly, NOT SALOON! ),
He may not be looking but I am...and SALOON is actually the correct term...or was until the mid -1980s when the marine industry decided to market boats to anyone with a pulse and a credit card with high enough limit to make a down payment, few if any of whom had the slightest knowledge of nautical terminology. Till then, the 1st definition of "saloon" in most dictionaries was "any large room or hall designated for receptions, exhibitions, entertainments etc, specifically the main passenger cabin of a passenger ship." In fact it was the first half of that definition that led to drinking establishments being called "saloons."
As "salon" began to replace the correct "saloon" in boat marketing literature (God forbid the marine market would risk offending any buyers or try to educate them), it created quite an uproar among boat owners old enough and literate enough to know the correct term.
Sadly, knowledge of correct nautical terminology has now deteriorated to the point where the nautically illiterate are now correcting those who still use the correct terms.
(Tomorrow's lesson will be on the correct spelling and pronunciation of "gunwale.")
--Peggie
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01-11-2021, 12:40 PM
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#7
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Guru
City: AR
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,514
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You don't want a Plastimo tank, Shawn...they're the least expensive by far for a reason!
If you're determined to go with a bladder, look at Nauta or Vetus. Their prices will make difference in quality obvious.
--Peggie
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01-11-2021, 12:42 PM
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#8
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Guru
City: Jacksonville Beach, FL
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 1,248
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Having shoehorned additional, badly-needed fresh water tankage into a couple of sailboats, this is an interesting project. A few brief observations:
Your plan will increase the weight of your fresh water supply by some 83 pounds (10 additional gallons, at 8.33 pounds per gallon). Not a big deal by itself. But, if I understand correctly, you will also be relocating the entire weight of your water supply - 416.5 pounds. You will move it from near the hull bottom and raise it to a point several inches higher, in the stern of the boat.
That by itself, is also probably not a huge deal. But, as boats age, owners invariably add weight to them incrementally, bolting in equipment and other improvements everywhere. It's easier to access and modify areas of a boat that are higher, so that's where additions and modifications tend to find their new homes aboard. The result is that, incrementally and almost unnoticeably, the center of gravity of any boat creeps up over the years. A boat that is stiff and stable on the day it was launched and commissioned will, after a decade or two, often roll with increasing tenderness. It happens to yachts, larger commercial vessels and warships.
History is full of examples where a gradual elevation over time in a vessel's center of gravity combined with other factors, eventually creating a hazardous state of instability waiting to appear at the worst possible moment.
Think about this project holistically, in the context of the entire boat, is all I'm suggesting.
__________________
"Less judgment than wit is more sail than ballast. Yet it must be confessed that wit give an edge to sense, and recommends it extremely." ~ William Penn
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01-11-2021, 12:42 PM
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#9
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Guru
City: Kilmarnock VA
Vessel Name: Wandering Star
Vessel Model: PSN40
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,393
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadMistress
(if you're looking, it's SALON, Mr RT Firefly, NOT SALOON! ),
He may not be looking but I am...and SALOON is actually the correct term...or was until the mid -1980s when the marine industry decided to market boats to anyone with a pulse and a credit card with high enough limit to make a down payment, few if any of whom had the slightest knowledge of nautical terminology. Till then, the 1st definition of "saloon" in most dictionaries was "any large room or hall designated for receptions, exhibitions, entertainments etc, specifically the main passenger cabin of a passenger ship." In fact it was the first half of that definition that led to drinking establishments being called "saloons."
As "salon" began to replace the correct "saloon" in boat marketing literature (God forbid the marine market would risk offending any buyers or try to educate them), it created quite an uproar among boat owners old enough and literate enough to know the correct term.
Sadly, knowledge of correct nautical terminology has now deteriorated to the point where the nautically illiterate are now correcting those who still use the correct terms.
(Tomorrow's lesson will be on the correct spelling and pronunciation of "gunwale.")
--Peggie
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I know...I'm aware of the definition ...I've already been scolded by Mr RT. I'm sorry to admit it ,but I'm old school too but I cut my boating career teeth working for a Hatteras dealer in the very early 80's. They called it a salon so far be it from me to argue with Mr Slane or AMF or whoever owned them at the time!
__________________
-Shawn-
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01-11-2021, 12:53 PM
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#10
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Guru
City: Miami Florida
Vessel Name: Possum
Vessel Model: Ellis 28
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,299
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I used a bladder tank for black water holding. I eventually replaced it with a plastic tank from Ronco. I like bladder tanks for temporary storage but prefer rigid tanks for permanent installation.
I sold bladder tanks made by Goodyear, Nauta, Plastimo and ATL, ATL was by far the best.
__________________
Parks Masterson
Retired from Hopkins-Carter Marine Supply
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01-11-2021, 01:04 PM
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#11
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Senior Member
City: Chesapeake Bay
Vessel Name: Patty Ann
Vessel Model: Mainship 34 MK1 1980
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 409
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Following. We have the same limited capacity (40galj and want too
add to our existing water supply with either a bladder or Ronco tank.
__________________
David
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01-11-2021, 02:00 PM
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#12
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Guru
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,034
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When I had my 1978 Mainship 1 I put a 20 gallon plastic tank on the starboard side under the cockpit up against the bulkhead.
I could have done the port side as well, but I didn't want to re route the genny exhaust and the extra 20 gallons made us feel flush with water for the duration of our ownership.
__________________
Jay Leonard
Ex boats: 1983 40 Albin trunk cabin, 1978 Mainship 34 Model 1
New Port Richey, Fl
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01-11-2021, 02:17 PM
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#13
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Guru
City: Kilmarnock VA
Vessel Name: Wandering Star
Vessel Model: PSN40
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,393
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OK ,I'm going to do some more homework now, armed with this new knowledge I've gained. That's the reason I'm here; to learn and share anything I might have to share. Blissboat, I hadn't even given the CG any thought, though I had thought about moving the weight aft. The proposed placement in only 4" higher than where the tank currently resides, so I'm hoping it will have little impact. The boat is a little light in the aft anyway, IMO , and like Solly mentioned, his Mainship III-same hull- has the fuel tank with 200 gallons of fuel back there.
I just went down to the boat & measured. I have 11" of height before adding a shelf, so I'm starting to get limited. Especially if the fill is on the top, which is the only way I would be interested in a tank anyway, so as to have the maximum useable capacity.
Peggy & Parks, thanks. I'm still thinking that if I want to use the area I'm talking about, it'll more than likely need to be a bladder but I'll look for a higher quality one now.
Kimmel, no sir! You're not going to sit behind your computer in your warm house while I'm out there doing all of this footwork! You'll need to get your butt out in the cold & down here to help me get this darned project rolling!
__________________
-Shawn-
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01-11-2021, 02:28 PM
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#14
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Guru
City: Kilmarnock VA
Vessel Name: Wandering Star
Vessel Model: PSN40
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,393
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jleonard
When I had my 1978 Mainship 1 I put a 20 gallon plastic tank on the starboard side under the cockpit up against the bulkhead.
I could have done the port side as well, but I didn't want to re route the genny exhaust and the extra 20 gallons made us feel flush with water for the duration of our ownership.
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My starboard side is out of the question unless I remove the exhaust line. It's positioned so I cant get over or under it. Lots of wasted space outboard there ,too. Our muffler is in the right-hand side area where the generator used to be. The 4" hose exits in the center of the aft ER bulkhead and slowly ramps down to the outlet in the transom. I wonder how yours was different? I know it depends on the tank size ,but I did have a 9 gallon (Todd?) tank outboard of the stringer on the port side, which helped a little, but I took it out to use the space as fender stowage. I measured and don't think I found any off-the-shelf tanks bigger than 9 gal that would fit in that space.
__________________
-Shawn-
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01-11-2021, 03:02 PM
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#15
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Guru
City: AR
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,514
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I cut my boating career teeth working for a Hatteras dealer in the very early 80's. They called it a salon so far be it from me to argue with Mr Slane or AMF or whoever owned them at the time!
That would have been about the time that "political correctness" had just begun to rear its ugly head.
I hadn't had an excuse to dust off my1983 Merriam Webster Unabridged in at least 10 years. I've considered getting rid of it several times...I'm glad I didn't!
--Peggie
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01-11-2021, 03:23 PM
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#16
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Moderator Emeritus
City: Au Gres, MI
Vessel Name: Black Dog
Vessel Model: Formula 41PC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 21,129
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Given the limited vertical clearance you have it may be worth the extra effort to make the shelf down between the stringers instead of on top of the stringers. It would get you the thickness of the shelf material, whether you use 1/2” or 3/4” plywood. Then you would still have the clearance you currently have. It would be a bit more work but to get the extra size tank in it might be worth the work. I agree that Ronko tanks are the best choice if you can shoehorn it in. Good luck!
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you aren’t one, there is no explanation possible.
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01-11-2021, 04:19 PM
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#17
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Guru
City: Guelph
Vessel Name: Escapade
Vessel Model: 50` US Navy Utility trawler conversion
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,432
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Can't speak to bladders, but on the sistership boat I had the PO had added a second rigid tank under the cockpit. It was smaller than the OEM, think he told me it was 30 gallons.
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01-11-2021, 05:05 PM
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#18
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Guru
City: Campbell River
Vessel Name: Blue Sky
Vessel Model: Nordic Tugs 42 Hull #001
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,972
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Our previous boat came with a water bladder (plus a rigid one) which was dead on arrival. We replaced it and within a month it was leaking at the fitting. It turned out that the constant motion and filling/emptying put too much strain on the connection point and we were advised to go with a rigid tank which we did.
Peggie is absolutely correct; the saloon is normally where we quaff, not coif.
__________________
Conrad
Berthed in
Campbell River BC
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01-11-2021, 05:30 PM
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#19
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Senior Member
City: Tasmania
Vessel Model: Sea Ranger 46
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadMistress
(if you're looking, it's SALON, Mr RT Firefly, NOT SALOON! ),
He may not be looking but I am...and SALOON is actually the correct term...or was until the mid -1980s when the marine industry decided to market boats to anyone with a pulse and a credit card with high enough limit to make a down payment, few if any of whom had the slightest knowledge of nautical terminology. Till then, the 1st definition of "saloon" in most dictionaries was "any large room or hall designated for receptions, exhibitions, entertainments etc, specifically the main passenger cabin of a passenger ship." In fact it was the first half of that definition that led to drinking establishments being called "saloons."
As "salon" began to replace the correct "saloon" in boat marketing literature (God forbid the marine market would risk offending any buyers or try to educate them), it created quite an uproar among boat owners old enough and literate enough to know the correct term.
Sadly, knowledge of correct nautical terminology has now deteriorated to the point where the nautically illiterate are now correcting those who still use the correct terms.
(Tomorrow's lesson will be on the correct spelling and pronunciation of "gunwale.")
--Peggie
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Thanks for clearing this up Peggy, I thought it was just a USA terminology thing.
Over here a salon is where hair is cut and styled.
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01-11-2021, 07:08 PM
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#20
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Senior Member
City: Solomons MD.
Vessel Name: Sun Runner
Vessel Model: 1985 Mainship 34 Trawler MK III
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 488
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How about a horizontal tank ? 10" or so high, as long (4') as you can get it to fit and what ever width between the transom and rudder. Run a piece of plywood across the stringers, support the outboard ends if you have to. Better yet use alum. angle to support the plywood and hold the tank in place.
That space is a bear to get to but you'd only do it once.
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