ASD Water Maker Install

[Larry M]

I'm with Bill on the membrane location. The engine room is OK. It's like your batteries, ideally they shouldn't be exposed to the heat of the engine room but that's where most of ours are.

Our pressure vessel/membrane is mounted in the engine room. In 10 years, we're on our third membrane, the first, I sucked in some oil. The second membrane lasted over 5 years with heavy use. We replaced it when the TDS was approaching 500ppm. We cruise in mostly warm climates.

 

[BandB]

Tom, does this mean you can shower? Your number of friends will increase exponentially!

But this riposte aside, will you be able to use river water as RO feed?

Yes, requires adjustments but can be used.

 

[BandB]

H PNW waters are significantly bio-fouled, so the filters plug often.

Sea Recovery actually has "Plankton Filter's" which can be placed before the other filters and filter anything larger than 100 micron. Our boats which were built in the PNW came with that as that's where the need seems to be greatest.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

The Low pressure plumbing is done with the exception of the brine dump. Plan on running that up to a sink drain.

In the pics none of the tubing is tied down yet.

I hung the membranes on the ceiling in the ER. Just have to watch your head when entering or existing the ER.

Waiting on my high pressure hoses to get here. We also have a scheduled haul out at the end of March for annual maintenance and new davit system install.

 

[Crusty Chief]

You mean the Sink Drain lines leading aft, not the actual sink, Right?

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

You mean the Sink Drain lines leading aft, not the actual sink, Right?

Nope sink drain, but I came up with a different plan. Run the tube to the stbd side and tap into the drain pipe as I have good access behind the battery chargers.

Now the problem is the product (fresh water) blue line. the fresh water line from my tanks come off the bottom of the tank, 210 gal. I am told not to plumb it into the line coming from the tank because as the tank fills it places pressure on the membranes.

So I will have to run the blue line to the tank and tie it in at:

1. tie into the fill line

2. Tie into the vent line

3. Drill and tap into the top of the tank. Not sure how I would do this...

 

[Crusty Chief]

Nope sink drain,

Now the problem is the product (fresh water) blue line. the fresh water line from my tanks come off the bottom of the tank, 210 gal. I am told not to plumb it into the line coming from the tank because as the tank fills it places pressure on the membranes.

So I will have to run the blue line to the tank and tie it in at:

1. tie into the fill line

2. Tie into the vent line

3. Drill and tap into the top of the tank. Not sure how I would do this...

Hmmmmm.....mine goes to the "Draw" side (bottom) of the main tank, no problems yet. Just had to remove the check valve.

 

[Nightsky]

Given the choice, I would plumb (tee) the product water to the top of your tank, no back pressure whatsoever. Also, if your system doesn't have a UV filter/light , I would add one to sanitize the product water through that before going to the tank.

 

[twistedtree]

I like the idea of putting the membranes on the ceiling.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Placing it like Crusty Chief, I wonder how much back pressure there actually is. Granted this is the easy way out. I would have to drill a hole through the bulkhead and I'm not sure if I have enough blue line for the run.....I know what I will be doing today.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Not much progress today. I spent the morning try to find a path to my fresh water tank. I have a huge bulkhead between the engine room. Difficult to drill holes. About the only paths I had was a a fuel line and the bilge. Something like a yuk factor running the fresh water line in the bilge.

I also looked at my water tanks. I have 2 105gallon tanks tied together. Can't access the fill or the vent lines. Then I would have to drill a hole in the top of the tank, and tread and seal a fitting. I have no inspection hatches on the tanks. This is going on next years list.

So I am going to tie the product line to the outlet of the water tank. I know a few folks who have done this and not had any issues with it or any damage to their systems.

Below is a manifold I engineered today. The 1/4 fitting on the top is for the product feed (fresh water filling the water tank), then the bigger fitting goes back to the carbon filter for fresh water rinse of the water maker system. The barbed ends will be inserted above the fresh water tank filters and pump. At the filters I have flex hose that will make installing it easy.

I have my high pressure lines coming. I ended up with two 50ft lines. Next is running electric runs to the control panels and pumps.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Install Complete (almost)

All I need are my high pressure lines and do a test run.

I found two spare breakers on my panel, one AC and the other DC, but wrong size, both 10amp. Need 20amp and 15amp so off to Portland to West Marine. What's nice about my boat is the circuit breaker panel is just a pig tail. Each wire has a number on it, like D9. Then you go the main buss and find that number wire on this plastic panel and there is your connection then run the wires to the control panel for the water maker. It was quite easy and applaud the boat manufacture for doing this. I do wish my circuit breaker panel was like Pairadice. You open the front door, then the circuit panel is also on hinges, making access easy. On mine you remove the 8 screws and pull the entire panel out.

The rest of the plumbing was installed to the back of my control panel. At a later date I may clean up the back of the panel using 90 degree fittings, but at this point I can still get around the pre-filtered. Amazing how fast you start to run out of tubing and fittings.

Then I red necked engineered a Y valve so I could use salt water or fresh water at the two deck wash down hoses. I considered mounting it in front of the water filters on the deck but chose the bulkhead for easier hose installation. This will be nice to do a fresh water rinse or supply fresh water for my cruising buddies. I also installed a new 70psi wash down pump. The old one was only 45psi and wasn't enough to blast the sticky mud off the anchor and rode.

So my high pressure hoses are shipped today, once I install them, I can do an initial startup, check for leaks, then pickle the system until we leave around 1st of May.

 

[Shoalwaters]

Alaskan: I suggest keeping a close eye on the hi-pressure lines, esp. the one from the pump to the membrane. 800+ psi can make for a lot of pulsing and vibration and chafe. Probably preaching to the choir here, but suggest securing with cushion-clamps to timber structure. Avoid using cable-ties and contact with cables and other hoses. Leakage while commisioning or general use will almost certainly result in sea water on the "floor". Anything down there that might object to a swim?

 

[twistedtree]

Then I red necked engineered a Y valve so I could use salt water or fresh water at the two deck wash down hoses. I considered mounting it in front of the water filters on the deck but chose the bulkhead for easier hose installation. This will be nice to do a fresh water rinse or supply fresh water for my cruising buddies. I also installed a new 70psi wash down pump. The old one was only 45psi and wasn't enough to blast the sticky mud off the anchor and rode.

I hate to say it, but it might save you some trouble down the line....

You really shouldn't use brass fitting for salt water. The salt water will eat away the zinc in the brass and leave you with weak, swiss cheese fittings, and a potential flooding risk. They should be bronze or nylon (not PVC).

 

[Maerin]

Alaskan: I suggest keeping a close eye on the hi-pressure lines, esp. the one from the pump to the membrane. 800+ psi can make for a lot of pulsing and vibration and chafe. Probably preaching to the choir here, but suggest securing with cushion-clamps to timber structure. Avoid using cable-ties and contact with cables and other hoses. Leakage while commisioning or general use will almost certainly result in sea water on the "floor". Anything down there that might object to a swim?

The high pressure lines create a lot of vibration, as does the actual membrane assembly. If you mount the membrane or the HP lines to something that creates a sounding board effect, you'll have a WHOLE lot of noise when you run the system. It's something that's easily and most always overlooked. The response is "it's a watermaker, they make noise", which doesn't have to be.

Use vibration isolators on the HP pump, and secure the HP hoses with vibration isolating mounts. It also helps to use vibration isolators on membrane mountings. The reduction in transmitted noise can be dramatic. An inexpensive vibration mount can be fabricated from silicone hose (top photo). The commercial vibration isolators I used in the (lower) photo are mounted on shear, (photo is looking up) it takes a mount rated for that service. These folks have a wide selection, have used them in the past. AAC - Anti Vibration Shock Mounts - Cylindrical Base Spring Rubber Sorbothane Neoprene

Vibration control is not hard to implement, not terribly expensive, and makes a HUGE, HUGE difference in the end result. If you have a noisey watermaker, add some of the silicone hose gizmos to the HP hoses and see if it doesn't quiet it down!

A bit late to the party, but create an air gap in your supply to the tank. Top fill is best. Second choice would be tee into a vent near the tank. A solid connection can create a siphon in mysterious ways, it can create a path for chlorinated dockside water in the tank to get to the membranes and damage them.

As another poster mentioned, NO BRASS fittings in contact with seawater. Recipe for failure!

 

[ksanders]

Hmmmmm.....mine goes to the "Draw" side (bottom) of the main tank, no problems yet. Just had to remove the check valve.

Like you I put mine just before the water pump inlet.

Works great.

 

[Larry M]

Alaskan: I suggest keeping a close eye on the hi-pressure lines, esp. the one from the pump to the membrane. 800+ psi can make for a lot of pulsing and vibration and chafe. Probably preaching to the choir here, but suggest securing with cushion-clamps to timber structure.....

Vibration/pulsing = chafe plus noise! We reinstalled our water maker after the engine room refit. With the new configuration, I installed the high pressure line from the membrane to the hp pump with 5 cushion clamps along the engine room ceiling right under the saloon. The noise was so loud that you didn't want to sit in the area while we were making water. I moved the line back to vertical wall, remounted with cushion clamps and the noise reduction was huge.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Didn't think about the brass. I guess that is why the fitting at WM are so expensive. Thanks for the advise on the HP pump.

 

[sean9c]

How are you planning to backflush the membranes? It needs to be fresh water but can't be chlorinated, like city water, which would kill your membranes.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Yes it will have fresh water rinses every 5-7 days when not in service, but not pickled. The system has a activated charcoal filter on the rinse side to take out any chlorine in city water.

 

[twistedtree]

Didn't think about the brass. I guess that is why the fitting at WM are so expensive. Thanks for the advise on the HP pump.

I'd be careful of WM as well. Lots of people sell "red brass" which is certainly better than "yellow brass", but isn't bronze either. The problem is that nobody actually knows what the zinc content is in their "red brass", so you really don't know what you are getting.

For stuff like you are doing where the joints are physically protected, I've come to prefer nylon. They are much less expensive with much greater variety. Many hardware stores carry parts, as does Fisheries. Just be sure you don't use PVC as used in domestic water systems

 

[Crusty Chief]

Jeezzz Tom, are you makin a career change here? Stop the multiple Union brakes and get this job done already.

Cheers, Crusty!

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Hey, supplies buddy waiting on supplies (HP Hoses). Now where the hell is my beer???

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

I made water today!!!! Ran the system in freshwater, so the pressure on the system was only at 350psi. Saltwater is 800psi! It is a little noisy, but this is due to the high pressure lines tied to the bulkhead. I think I will install some pipe insulation to try and knock the noise down a bit. My tank was at 1/3rd and I filled it to 3/4.

The one thing I was surprised by was the amount of "brine" the system bleeds off. It was more than the water my genny kicks out when running. So today I will be pickling it and shutting the system down until we start our trip in about 8 weeks.....

I found the install pretty much straight forward, The electrical connections were a little complex but if you are in doubt, hire an electrician. Next year I will be replacing some of the brass with the correct fittings, be it Teflon or bronze.

Now on to installing new carpet, bathroom tile and galley back splash! Then to Ilwaco for a week to dress up the hull, and have a davit and dinghy installed......

Thanks for following us.

 

[BandB]

Congratulations on a successful project. You'll soon wonder why you ever waited so long.

 

[cafesport]

ASD, You might consider adjusting your membrane pressure via the temperature corrected product flow rate instead of just using gauge pressure. 300 is very high for freshwater, especially in Alaska. Manufacturers scale their units using water temps of 78F and should include a set of correction tables for their users who operate in various temp waters. If you are running in 48F or less the correction factor is close to 2 and increases as the temps fall. In other words if you have a 40gph machine you should adjust the pressure until the product flow rate is 20gph. Any higher and you shorten the life of your membranes. Enjoy the new toy.

 

[twistedtree]

Nice job, and thanks for sharing.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

ASD, You might consider adjusting your membrane pressure via the temperature corrected product flow rate instead of just using gauge pressure. 300 is very high for freshwater, especially in Alaska. Manufacturers scale their units using water temps of 78F and should include a set of correction tables for their users who operate in various temp waters. If you are running in 48F or less the correction factor is close to 2 and increases as the temps fall. In other words if you have a 40gph machine you should adjust the pressure until the product flow rate is 20gph. Any higher and you shorten the life of your membranes. Enjoy the new toy.

300psi was with no adjustment in the fresh, muddy waters of the Columbia River. According to the manufacture when I am in salt water the unit should be ran at 800psi. As long as I don't exceed my product limit pressure (40gph) in freshwater I should be fine.

They do say the colder the water the less product you will produce when compared to warmer water. The colder water also has better quality.

But there are places in the inside passage where the water temp is 80f!!!!

Crusty maybe able to explain it better. Here is the link to RO's videos.....

Watermaker How-To Videos | Cruise RO Water & Power

 

[cafesport]

We make water in temps ranging between 50 and 90 degrees. I have a table showing the adjusted product flow rates relative to feed water temps that I need to adjust for next to the water maker. Relying on flow rather than pressure is the secret to not blowing out the membranes. When we are in the Chesapeake our pressures are less than 200. Up some of the rivers last year we had to dial back to 100.

 

[ktdtx]

I had a Cruise RO 40 gph water maker installed last year. (I am 2,000 miles away from the boat plus no time and questionable skills)
Worked well over 6 months up and down the NW coast.
I found Rick quickly responsive via phone or text.

It is not a "turn it on and forget it" system..have to monitor it, tweak it a little but is sure does make water.

Only problem I had (and still have) was getting the pressures to what they say they should be in the book--low pressure is always too low and I believe this resulted in the 1st pre-filter running half full a lot of the time. The suggested problem was that somewhere air was gaining entry into the raw water supply line....well, I haven't found it yet.

Still makes good water.