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Old 06-28-2017, 12:24 PM   #21
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Our Mainship came with engine heated hot water. However I'm in the process of installing a Webasto hydronic system and now run the engine coolant through a heat exchanger that heats the water heater. I also installed one of the Honeywell valves to regulate the hot water temperature. Sure Marine has been assisting with this and they are the best to work with.
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Old 06-28-2017, 12:25 PM   #22
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A few engine mechanics have said to me that they do not like to see the engine coolant running to a hot water heater due the possibility of failure of one of these hoses. If you overheat a very expensive diesel engine the cost to rebuild is very high. If you are running a generator anyway like we do in Florida most of the time for air conditioning, they say it is not worth the risk for hot water. Shut off valves might be a consideration to have on the extra coolant lines closed when not needed.
Very good point, but with a proper set up and hoses check, as well as the hot water heater, how high is the risk? I'd hope very low.

I've had several with my smaller boats without issue. I did replace a heater once because of rust, but never had a coolant failure with the engine.

However, not having hot water for a quick rinse off while or after running for awhile is priceless, and cranking the genny would be a pain.

Any others had failures?
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Old 06-28-2017, 01:24 PM   #23
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Very good point, but with a proper set up and hoses check, as well as the hot water heater, how high is the risk? I'd hope very low.

I've had several with my smaller boats without issue. I did replace a heater once because of rust, but never had a coolant failure with the engine.

However, not having hot water for a quick rinse off while or after running for awhile is priceless, and cranking the genny would be a pain.

Any others had failures?
Not very high....personally never heard of engine damage from a water heater plumbing problem.

Not saying it doesnt happen, but with proper install andgood PM...a lot more to worry about.

However, risk management teaches us that if you have to run a generator a bunch...that might be the better way.
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Old 06-28-2017, 02:10 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by yachtbrokerguy View Post
A few engine mechanics have said to me that they do not like to see the engine coolant running to a hot water heater due the possibility of failure of one of these hoses. If you overheat a very expensive diesel engine the cost to rebuild is very high. If you are running a generator anyway like we do in Florida most of the time for air conditioning, they say it is not worth the risk for hot water. Shut off valves might be a consideration to have on the extra coolant lines closed when not needed.
Good idea. I've installed valves to isolate engine coolant from the water heater along with a bypass valve.
This was after one of my first trips in rough water when my engine overheated due to the hot water tank shifting slightly and kinking the coolant hose.

The valves are also useful as manual temperature control for the hot water.
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Old 06-28-2017, 02:36 PM   #25
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A few engine mechanics have said to me that they do not like to see the engine coolant running to a hot water heater due the possibility of failure of one of these hoses. .........
If this was really a risk, you wouldn't see heat exchangers in water heaters and boat manufacturers wouldn't manufacture them this way. The risk of a hose breaking is pretty slim if you use quality hose suitable for the purpose and route it in a safe manner.

There's probably a greater risk of the heat exchanger failing and contaminating the potable water with engine coolant but that's still a very, very small risk. There are millions of boats out there with this system and not a lot of reports of failure.
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Old 06-28-2017, 05:15 PM   #26
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I have a hydronic system. When running I can use the engine heat from one or both engines, my wood stove or pellet stove with a series of valves to send heated water thru the boiler. All is plumbed with pipe except short hose connections to the engines. Valves are installed so the system can be isolated in sections in case of a leak. The boiler is diesel fired and can use more than 5 gallons a day in really cold weather. That's why the pellet stove.
I found diesel the most expensive follow by electricity, wood (unless I cut, split and haul) and then pellets. When you figure the chain saw, vehicle and time, wood isn't cheap.
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Old 07-02-2017, 09:46 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by yachtbrokerguy View Post
A few engine mechanics have said to me that they do not like to see the engine coolant running to a hot water heater due the possibility of failure of one of these hoses. If you overheat a very expensive diesel engine the cost to rebuild is very high. If you are running a generator anyway like we do in Florida most of the time for air conditioning, they say it is not worth the risk for hot water. Shut off valves might be a consideration to have on the extra coolant lines closed when not needed.
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Very good point, but with a proper set up and hoses check, as well as the hot water heater, how high is the risk? I'd hope very low.

Any others had failures?
Certainly if you run the genset all the time anyway, the engine coolant loop would be unnecessary. Not the way I cruise, and not the way I want to cruise.

I did once have a hose fail in a water heater coolant loop, and it did drain most of the coolant into the bilge. A support had come undone and the hose fell to where it was chafing on the tiller arm.

Not a big deal. I could smell it right away, and was able to patch it up, top off the coolant and be on my way.

Hopefully you'd always have a way to detect an overheat condition, even if you weren't where you could smell the anti-freeze, long before the engine was destroyed.

I just don't see any negatives. I'd plumb in shutoff valves if I was that worried about it. I have one installed, only because I was working on that area anyway. Putting in another one at the other end of the run hasn't made it to the top of my list yet. Come to think of it, it's not even ON the list at this point.
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Old 07-02-2017, 10:04 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by yachtbrokerguy View Post
A few engine mechanics have said to me that they do not like to see the engine coolant running to a hot water heater due the possibility of failure of one of these hoses. If you overheat a very expensive diesel engine the cost to rebuild is very high. If you are running a generator anyway like we do in Florida most of the time for air conditioning, they say it is not worth the risk for hot water. Shut off valves might be a consideration to have on the extra coolant lines closed when not needed.
Tucker

Yes a hose failure can cause damage. But, given the number of coolant hoses around my motors they all can . Just part of the ER checks when under way. You're spot on with the shut off valve point. This is my approach. But our valves are easily accessible.

I have not jumped on the tempering valve band wagon. But I do tell guests that the forward head and shower have very hot water. Kinda like don't walk in the street barefoot on an AZ summer day. Even the two year olds get it.
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Old 07-02-2017, 11:08 AM   #29
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All vehicles have engine heat systems and we dont worry about them. Surely boat owners inspect their ER more than their cars.
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Old 07-02-2017, 12:16 PM   #30
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My boat has a dedicated heat exchanger, then the loop to the water tank is completely separate. If the loop fails, no effect on the engine. The water circulates just fine by thermal loop, there is no pump but I always have plenty of hot water. This is definitely belt-and-suspenders, I will probably remove the heat exchanger and sell it! Too much plumbing!
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Old 07-02-2017, 12:18 PM   #31
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My Willard has that feature and the domestic water gets too hot.
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Old 07-02-2017, 12:47 PM   #32
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I guess I dont get it, most places I use shower or faucet handles work the same. Right cold, left hot, a little of both, warm. Adjust to pleasure.

If I cant handle that setup, hard to believe the state allows me to drive both a car and boat.
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Old 07-02-2017, 03:48 PM   #33
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I guess I dont get it, most places I use shower or faucet handles work the same. Right cold, left hot, a little of both, warm. Adjust to pleasure.

If I cant handle that setup, hard to believe the state allows me to drive both a car and boat.
I'm with you 100% on this. But I went and installed the tempering valve anyway just to shut people up. Also, it extends the hot water at anchor.

I do miss being able to use that really hot water when I need it. I'm always tinkering with my potable water system. The valve may come out at some future upgrade.
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Old 04-30-2018, 07:55 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yachtbrokerguy View Post
A few engine mechanics have said to me that they do not like to see the engine coolant running to a hot water heater due the possibility of failure of one of these hoses. If you overheat a very expensive diesel engine the cost to rebuild is very high. If you are running a generator anyway like we do in Florida most of the time for air conditioning, they say it is not worth the risk for hot water. Shut off valves might be a consideration to have on the extra coolant lines closed when not needed.
Exactly what happened during delivery of my 47 Eastbay. Coolant loop from starboard engine failed due to a brass elbow at the engine with a valve hung off it. Hose was supported, so it wasn't bearing the entire weight of the valve at the elbow... but still a lesser design than I'd chose.

Upside was the engine immediately reported the alarm and we shut it down. Fortunately this was as we were coming into a marina to refuel AND they had the ELEVEN gallons of C-12 coolant (@$20/gal) necessary to refill the system. Bilge pump work quite well, hardly any sign of the coolant remained, save for the catch pan under the engine itself. Marina shop also had just the right threaded fitting to plug the line at the engine. The trick will be in removing/replacing that without losing too much coolant when the final repair gets done.

We will likely run the generator a lot and I may consider not re-connecting the loop. One less thing to puke out $200+ worth of coolant...
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Old 04-30-2018, 08:38 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yachtbrokerguy View Post
A few engine mechanics have said to me that they do not like to see the engine coolant running to a hot water heater due the possibility of failure of one of these hoses. If you overheat a very expensive diesel engine the cost to rebuild is very high.
Our builder apparently routinely did NOT use the extra coolant loop in their models. Perhaps similar as David described about Mainships. (And I don't remember our '87 Mk III usig the loop, either.)


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Very good point, but with a proper set up and hoses check, as well as the hot water heater, how high is the risk? I'd hope very low.
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If this was really a risk, you wouldn't see heat exchangers in water heaters and boat manufacturers wouldn't manufacture them this way. The risk of a hose breaking is pretty slim if you use quality hose suitable for the purpose and route it in a safe manner.
I'd think risk is low, but... water heater manufacturers wouldn't necessarily care about the risk to a propulsion engine (doubt they could be found liable for a hose-up), and boat manufacturers maybe vary. Different focus from engine manufacturers...


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I did once have a hose fail in a water heater coolant loop, and it did drain most of the coolant into the bilge. A support had come undone and the hose fell to where it was chafing on the tiller arm.
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Exactly what happened during delivery of my 47 Eastbay. Coolant loop from starboard engine failed due to a brass elbow at the engine with a valve hung off it. Hose was supported, so it wasn't bearing the entire weight of the valve at the elbow... but still a lesser design than I'd chose.

Upside was the engine immediately reported the alarm and we shut it down.
So hose-ups do apparently happen. Probably just a matter of understanding the risks and then deciding whether that's within the comfort zone... or not.

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Old 04-30-2018, 08:54 AM   #36
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I don't think there's excessive risk to the loop being present. There's already a ton of hoses and fittings involved with heat exchangers and the like. So as long as they're part of a regular maintenance check it would seem reasonable to use them.

What concerns me is the placement of the shutoff valves. Especially if they're for 'hurry up and get it done' winterizing situations. As in, some bilge monkey yanking on the handle in late November. Too much force on the lever translating into excessive torque on the fitting. Do it often enough over a decade and that likely explains how ours failed. That and engine vibration. Always important to make sure all of your shutoff valves are working smoothly and completely open/close.
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Old 04-30-2018, 09:03 AM   #37
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Have seen a couple of engines wrecked due to water heater loops. One a fitting with a valve was cantilevered and broke off at thread roots. Used a brass nipple where it should have been steel, or valve located after a section of hose.

Other one a mechanic changed coolant, and water heater drained too. When refilling, a large air pocket was in water heater and once up at power the air slug moved into engine, air loading the pump. The temp sensor did not sense the heat as the flow had stopped. Finally alarm came on but by then engine was cooked.

On my personal boat with single engine, no loop to water heater. Much cheaper water heater (domestic type) and I run the gennie in the morning and pm anyway. I don't miss the feature.

I do use engine coolant for cabin heat, but on winter runs I use that for hours on end, so pretty valuable. I close the valves off in the spring.
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Old 04-30-2018, 09:06 AM   #38
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Exactly what happened during

We will likely run the generator a lot and I may consider not re-connecting the loop. One less thing to puke out $200+ worth of coolant...
We eliminated ours because of the same reason engine alarm caught it we shut down turned off the valve and topped off the system.

new water heater going in soon I will remove the old lines to the port engine
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Old 04-30-2018, 09:36 AM   #39
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Have seen a couple of engines wrecked due to water heater loops. One a fitting with a valve was cantilevered and broke off at thread roots. Used a brass nipple where it should have been steel, or valve located after a section of hose.

Other one a mechanic changed coolant, and water heater drained too. When refilling, a large air pocket was in water heater and once up at power the air slug moved into engine, air loading the pump. The temp sensor did not sense the heat as the flow had stopped. Finally alarm came on but by then engine was cooked.

On my personal boat with single engine, no loop to water heater. Much cheaper water heater (domestic type) and I run the gennie in the morning and pm anyway. I don't miss the feature.

I do use engine coolant for cabin heat, but on winter runs I use that for hours on end, so pretty valuable. I close the valves off in the spring.
Ski,
As I am about to change my heater with a new one what would be your advice to avoid air locking the pump?
I plan to fill up the heater with coolant by gravity feeding it, any other thing I should be careful with?
Also I will add shutoff valve at the engine block, as the block is cast iron what type of fittings are the best, steel, brass, bronze?
I will replace the engine fittings as they show some sign of aging.
Lastly if I put shutoff valve will the coolant bypass internally or do I need to add a loop between in/out coolant fitting on the engine?
And for hoses, regular rubber hose for coolant? Silicon hoses? Any advice for these?

Sorry for the slight thread hijack

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Old 05-01-2018, 10:40 AM   #40
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One advantage to plumbing the coolant from the noisemaker is the electric can be used at the same time if guests have large demands, usually for showers.
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