Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 01-15-2021, 05:38 AM   #241
Guru
 
catalinajack's Avatar
 
City: Edgewater, MD
Vessel Name: Catalina Jack
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,581
That sir, is not the point. Of course, point out the danger. It is dangerous regardless of the ABYC standards. But, you seem, I said seem, not willing to recognize that some surveyors screw us badly. The non-tinned wire is one way. In any of your surveys do you note that the wiring is not tinned wire which does not meet ABYC standards regardless of when built? I rather think you wouldn't do that but if you do that on a boat that met the wiring standard at the time it was built, well, just like you choose not to survey live aboard boats, I would not choose you to survey my boat or allow you to do a buyer's survey.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
So with that line of thought it would appear that surveyors should make no reference to dangerous propane systems as there are no legal requirements for propane installations in pleasure craft in either Canada or the US. Is that your position ?
catalinajack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2021, 05:42 AM   #242
Guru
 
catalinajack's Avatar
 
City: Edgewater, MD
Vessel Name: Catalina Jack
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,581
Again, tell us, what is wrong with that outlet?
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
Tough to ferret out (legal) requirements that don't exist.

So I'll ask again ... Should surveyors not report on dangerous propane systems because there are no legal requirements for them ?


None of the potentially lethal situations in the photos below are covered in the CFR's either. In your view these should not be reported on either ?
catalinajack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2021, 05:47 AM   #243
Guru
 
catalinajack's Avatar
 
City: Edgewater, MD
Vessel Name: Catalina Jack
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,581
"Some newer standards are completely impractical to retrofit or provide minimal benefit. Others are fairly easy to update to and/or provide a large benefit."

BP, you have now validated what Rufus and I have been railing about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rslifkin View Post
Just because it was legal and acceptable at the time does NOT mean it's actually safe. However, that also doesn't mean that everything needs to be updated to the latest standards. There needs to be some logic and discretion applied if an update is required or suggested. Some newer standards are completely impractical to retrofit or provide minimal benefit. Others are fairly easy to update to and/or provide a large benefit.



With a propane system in particular, being that I don't trust people not to be a little bit dumb or complacent, I'd expect at least most of the newer standards to be met (at least as far as regulators, solenoids, detectors, ventilation of the locker).
catalinajack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2021, 08:33 AM   #244
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 11,377
Quote:
Originally Posted by catalinajack View Post
For my knowledge bank, what is wrong with that battery bank?
I wondered the same thing. Simply because it's possibly constricting a hall and/or companionway; maybe blocking door[s], draw[s]??
Art is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2021, 08:36 AM   #245
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 24,241
Maybe for no venting or venting into a living space?
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2021, 09:04 AM   #246
Guru
 
City: Here
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,935
Quote:
Originally Posted by catalinajack View Post
For my knowledge bank, what is wrong with that battery bank?
Somewhere around 6,000 cca of hydrogen generating bombs unprotected by fuses, unventilated and sharing the compartment with a non-ignition protected automotive battery charger that does not have isolated AC/DC sides.

Not to worry tho' ... it's not illegal in the US so the surveyor will not put it in your survey report.
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2021, 09:36 AM   #247
Guru
 
City: Here
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,935
Quote:
Originally Posted by catalinajack View Post
Again, tell us, what is wrong with that outlet?
The outlet is not in a (UL approved) junction box. any short will occur directly against wood therefore a fire hazard. I know of one fire caused by a mouse (a liveaboard ) getting jammed between the outlet and the wood causing a short.

Not to worry, this is not illegal in the US so won't be mentioned in a survey report
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2021, 10:00 AM   #248
Guru
 
City: Barrington
Vessel Name: Hippocampus
Vessel Model: Boatless at present
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 1,140
But isn’t that the point BP. You seemed to be skilled and knowledgeable. All the rating systems have deficiencies. The knowledgeable owner and surveyor has reason to strongly agree or disagree with facets of any system. Rather then being SOLELY focused on compliance to such a system wouldn’t it be more beneficial to the owner/buyer to point out things that are compliant but could be made better and things that are noncompliant but executed in a fashion that is better than code?
Hippocampus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2021, 10:10 AM   #249
Guru
 
City: Here
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippocampus View Post
But isn’t that the point BP. You seemed to be skilled and knowledgeable. All the rating systems have deficiencies. The knowledgeable owner and surveyor has reason to strongly agree or disagree with facets of any system. Rather then being SOLELY focused on compliance to such a system wouldn’t it be more beneficial to the owner/buyer to point out things that are compliant but could be made better and things that are noncompliant but executed in a fashion that is better than code?
I don't have a "Recommendations" section in my reports. I have a "Comments" section instead. Semantics are important in this regard I believe.

I clearly define in my "Comments" which are code (ABYC, NFPA, TP1332, CFR Title 46) and which are my "opinion".

I believe each of the photographs I've posted can be seen by reasonable people to be dangerous and should be reported in a survey report whether they are technically "legal" or not.
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2021, 10:26 AM   #250
TF Site Team
 
City: Westerly, RI
Vessel Name: N/A
Vessel Model: 1999 Mainship 350 Trawler
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
I know exactly what's required by law regarding safety of pleasure boats. There are few specifics precisely because there isn't a significant safety issue in the pleasure boat community that would require changes to current government requirements. All the rest that many (most) surveyors wave around (primarily ABYC) are guidelines for new construction....not 30 year old boats.

I've actually written technical information for ABYC at their request. It has its place....new construction. With decades of experience in the regulatory arena, I assure you I understand the difference between requirements and guidelines. Surveyors should be assessing boats for condition against the original design that was approved for entry into the country (the U.S. in my case). Laying out a list of items that don't comply with current practices for new boat construction should be banned by SAMS/NAMS as being outside the scope of survey reports. It's a fundamental error in their practices and "training"....and they've been told about it. They cost boat owners untold amounts of money to make unnecessary and unrequired changes to their boats. Insurance companies buy into it because their both lazy and they see an upside to killing off the older boat community. The "partnership with the insurance companies to have exclusive rights to conduct surveys is a subtle scam...rhyms with SAMS/NAMS...and is probably an unfair labor practice.

SAMS/NAMS won't change their way of doing business because it diminishes their status and influence. ABYC, of course, likes the current scam because it makes inroads for their guidelines into the older boat community. Boat owners need to screen surveyors regarding these practices. Permitting it to continue is cutting your own throat, and that of fellow boat owners.
Apologies, but you didn't answer my question. If not the ABYC standard, then what guidelines do you suggest be followed? The point I was making is there is really ONLY the ABYC standard with which to follow.

Just because a standard published after the vessel was manufactured doesn't make the existence of something an non-issue.

Example:

Lead paint is illegal
Many old houses have lead paint
The existence of that lead paint is absolutely going to get notated in a home inspection.
Your contention is that it should be ignored because it was legal at the time.

You contention is preposterous.
Shrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2021, 10:35 AM   #251
Guru
 
boomerang's Avatar
 
City: Kilmarnock VA
Vessel Name: YellowBird
Vessel Model: 1978 Mainship 34
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 982
Ooh ooh ooh! I know how this thread can find closure! Let's pick 3 random areas like A/C & D/C panels, engine rooms, sanitation systems etc. & we'll have BP snap unretouched pictures of said areas right away. Then we'll have those opposing his views take pictures of the same spots on their boats! A picture is worth a thousand words...or posts...
__________________
-Shawn-
boomerang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2021, 11:04 AM   #252
Guru
 
City: Barrington
Vessel Name: Hippocampus
Vessel Model: Boatless at present
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 1,140
Always enjoyed and learned something from the recommendations section. Especially when divided into do now, should be done at some point and might be a good idea to do. Different surveyors use different language to make those divisions but you get the point. Found that helpful. In the past code violations haven’t been mentioned but guess that’s a reflection that I won’t buy (hence sell) a boat that’s unsafe. I’ve never hired a surveyor without looking at a sample report and reviewing independent assessments of his work. Beyond the pro forma of insurance surveys asking for valuation what I want out of a survey is an assessment of the integrity of the vessel and what’s involved to make it as safe, functional, serviceable and long lived as possible. If ABYC gives cues as how to make that possible all to the good. But I don’t see any rating system as being the be all and end all to achieve that end. It was to have you and others acknowledge many owners and prospective owners have a similar view. Think the negative feelings expressed toward marine surveyors isn’t often justified. Have found them a great source of education and insight if you pick wisely.
Hippocampus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2021, 11:07 AM   #253
Guru
 
City: Here
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippocampus View Post
Think the negative feelings expressed toward marine surveyors isn’t often justified. Have found them a great source of education and insight if you pick wisely.
If you've read my website you would have seen that few express more negative feelings towards surveyors than I

How to Become a Marine Surveyor in Ontario

Everyone Who Says He is a Marine Surveyor in Ontario

Choosing a Marine Surveyor
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2021, 11:41 AM   #254
Guru
 
City: Barrington
Vessel Name: Hippocampus
Vessel Model: Boatless at present
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 1,140
Yup just like anything else (lawyers,accountants, doctors or plumbers etc.) need to pick the good ones. Problem is it’s all to often a one and done with you never using that surveyor a second time making it hard to ascertain who’s good before the fact of using them. Still as said if you do your due diligence you can find them and have a positive experience. Appreciate your “choosing...” article. Pretty much summarized what I’ve been doing but nice to see another stamp of approval.
Hippocampus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2021, 11:57 AM   #255
Guru
 
Soo-Valley's Avatar
 
City: Gulf Islands, BC Canada
Vessel Name: Soo Valley
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 36
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 1,744
I am beginning to see that surveyors are no different than new home inspectors. Had many more home inspections than surveys. we came to realise that they had to find something and if there was not something obvious would stay and look much longer than if they found 2-3 items to write down. You guessed it, we began to give them things to find which were easily fixed.
I also would shadow them when there was an issue I saw that needed remedy but they missed. I would point it out and ask it be put on report so I could show the contractor.

ABYC is a well intentioned group but I do not agree with everything, most notably bonding everything. A well maintained boat should not have stray currents from AC to DC and from inside to outside of the boat. I do not agree with creating a path to the water via the ground/bonding wires just in case a hot touches.
__________________
SteveK AKA Soo Valley
You only need one working engine. That is why I have two.
Soo-Valley is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2021, 12:17 PM   #256
Guru
 
City: Here
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soo-Valley View Post
I am beginning to see that surveyors are no different than new home inspectors. Had many more home inspections than
In the 80's I turned a stone barn built in 1832 into a house. I did absolutely everything myself so I knew where every flaw was and where every corner had been cut.

When I sold the place in the 90's the buyers sent a home inspector who spent 4hrs, produced a 4" binder and found absolutely nothing wrong. That deal fell through on financing.

Two weeks later, another offer and another home inspector who spent 4hrs and found every single flaw and even minor curious things I had done. Some of his findings amazed me as he found some stuff so buried I'm not sure I could have found it again.

Both these inspectors charged the same fee.

It really depends on your due diligence. There are good ones out there and they can be found. Caveat Emptor.
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2021, 12:41 PM   #257
Guru
 
Soo-Valley's Avatar
 
City: Gulf Islands, BC Canada
Vessel Name: Soo Valley
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 36
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 1,744
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
In the 80's I turned a stone barn built in 1832 into a house. I did absolutely everything myself so I knew where every flaw was and where every corner had been cut.

When I sold the place in the 90's the buyers sent a home inspector who spent 4hrs, produced a 4" binder and found absolutely nothing wrong. That deal fell through on financing.

Two weeks later, another offer and another home inspector who spent 4hrs and found every single flaw and even minor curious things I had done. Some of his findings amazed me as he found some stuff so buried I'm not sure I could have found it again.

Both these inspectors charged the same fee.

It really depends on your due diligence. There are good ones out there and they can be found. Caveat Emptor.
I find that interesting. In BC home inspectors are not allowed to look below the surface. For instance wiring, is it aluminum or copper, cannot remove a plate to look, so guess is made. I had a home inspector tick off concrete foundation so I asked how did he determine that. Well they all are. Nope I said, this one is a wood foundation.
__________________
SteveK AKA Soo Valley
You only need one working engine. That is why I have two.
Soo-Valley is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2021, 12:47 PM   #258
Guru
 
City: Here
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soo-Valley View Post
ABYC is a well intentioned group but I do not agree with everything, most notably bonding everything. A well maintained boat should not have stray currents from AC to DC and from inside to outside of the boat. I do not agree with creating a path to the water via the ground/bonding wires just in case a hot touches.
There are many opposing views on bonding even within ABYC however when looking at any ABYC standard one must remember that ABYC's focus is much more on the safety aspects than any potential corrosion.

Bonding may cause corrosion but only if there are other flaws in the electrical system.

Steve D'antonios article on the matter is worth a read. After reading the article scroll down to Steves response to a question on the matter of bonding and electrical safety.

https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/j...18-newsletter/
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2021, 05:37 PM   #259
Guru
 
City: Here
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,935
Quote:
Originally Posted by catalinajack View Post
That sir, is not the point. Of course, point out the danger. It is dangerous regardless of the ABYC standards. But, you seem, I said seem, not willing to recognize that some surveyors screw us badly. The non-tinned wire is one way.
Tinned conductors are not an ABYC requirement.
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2021, 07:10 PM   #260
Guru
 
catalinajack's Avatar
 
City: Edgewater, MD
Vessel Name: Catalina Jack
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,581
Geez, boatpoker, do you ever give it a rest?
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
Somewhere around 6,000 cca of hydrogen generating bombs unprotected by fuses, unventilated and sharing the compartment with a non-ignition protected automotive battery charger that does not have isolated AC/DC sides.

Not to worry tho' ... it's not illegal in the US so the surveyor will not put it in your survey report.
catalinajack is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:56 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012