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Old 01-10-2021, 10:15 AM   #201
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Wow. Good information. Thanks for setting me straight. Sounds like the licensing of boat brokers, surveyors, credentials given at the lower levels of master/captains licensing and even local marine law enforcement all have serious deficiencies. Any suggestions as how ameliorate these situations? Just glad I’ve muddled through all these years. Must be lucky or have vetted well.
BP ever thought to ask “how much total loss are you are asking for?”. Might separate the wheat from the chaff and get you even busier.
Thanks but not interested in anymore business, We've been slowing down the last few years to spend more time crusing and now Sharon and I just work when we feel like it or if we get a really interesting one come our way
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Old 01-10-2021, 10:32 AM   #202
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Still, I thought he said he wonít survey ANY live aboard. Seems inappropriate to lump good folks in with the problem group. By his own admission he, his friends, people like Peter and many other good people are off his list. Anytime people are not judged as individuals but rather by a group designation the probability of injustice increases imho. By the classic definition I have never been a liveaboard. Always had a dirt dwelling as well even if it wasnít in use for long periods. My comments are not self serving but rather due to a repugnance of any a priori characterization of a diverse group of individuals.
Ummm....... Hate to say, but before I offloaded 3 tons of crap for my refit, I was probably Exhibit #1 for Boatpoker reasoning on why he avoids liveaboards. Even an ex liveaboard had too many ghosts.

But thanks for the kind thoughts.

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Old 01-10-2021, 01:27 PM   #203
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Nice job of delegating. Do tell, did the manager fire that employee or did you end up firing both.
He fired the individual he was asking me to fire who had committed many serious offenses including against him directly. It was simply a part of the job he had to learn. Most unpleasant part of any job. Just like policing tenants is for a dockmaster or marina owner, but it's part of it.
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Old 01-13-2021, 08:45 AM   #204
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Mall cops. I like that. Some are but many are quite competent. I know of one I would trust any day on any boat, excluding megayachts. Question: how many sales have been jeopardized by surveyors calling out life-and-death issues that are simply incorrect? I'm thinking of those that call out non-tinned wire on older boats. When I get around to selling my boat, I will not let any surveyor on my boat without seeing a redacted copy of a prior survey on a similar boat. I will make it a condition of sale. I will not be caring if a buyer walks because of the requirement.
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Some years ago I needed an insurance survey. The only sams/nams surveyor in the area was an arrogant, incompetent bozo who had no experience on larger boats. But he was nonetheless eager to take the job, and would have been accepted by the insurance company. I knew of a well known Marine Architect in Sturgeon Bay who had designed and supervised construction of many boats including a spectacular 40 foot trawler. He said he'd help me out. This gentleman refused to join either of the surveyor organizations, which he thought were a joke. The insurance company accepted him with no issues after I wrote a letter listing qualifications as long as your arm. The insurance companies are lazy and have no idea how unqualified most of these surveyors really are. Mall cops.
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Old 01-13-2021, 10:33 AM   #205
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If a surveyor shows up for survey of a decades old boat and says his/her latest copy of ABYC guidelines is the bible, that should be a clue that the individual. has no sense or experience or both. SAMS/NAMS and ABYC have a business partnership...not sure if it's formal, but they show up at marinas together to sell safety. Their relationship with insurance companies is insidious. Guess who pays...
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Old 01-13-2021, 12:58 PM   #206
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Although ABYC has its issues it’s sure a hell of a lot better than EC. The European system speaks only to whether the vessel mets its standards at the time it leaves the factory. Given many of the large manufacturers build to that standard but with profit strongly in mind even without modifications by the owner and with average usage and maintenance these boats can rapidly deteriorate to the point of being dangerous. Find this particularly true with boats labeled “A”.
I’ve done Marion Bermuda on decades old Hinckley B40s. Would have no reluctance to get on a 40-50 year old one and do it again nor a wooden Concordia. Age isn’t the determinant. Quality of initial build and maintenance is.
Rating systems do have some worth but it’s important to understand the underlying thinking and genesis of “best practices “ so when there’s a deviation you can judge is the deviation better than, worse than or not important as compared to the rule. Of course decades ago some of the rating systems didn’t exist and all have been modified since inception. My first boat was Lloyd’s, third Norske, several since then ABYC. None of that lets you off the hook for doing your own due diligence, improvements and replacements in accordance to service life and maintenance. Every time I watch a survey I learn something. Most of these people aren’t idiots but rather skilled professionals. Only once have I felt the need to dismiss one and have the job redone. Word of mouth and reputation goes a long way to choosing a good one.
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Old 01-13-2021, 02:09 PM   #207
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Condition per the original certification criteria should be the primary aspect of surveys. But it's a completely different story when a surveyor attempts to force a later design standard on a 30 year old boat (that was "safe" when it left the factory). Sixty year old airplanes are flying around over your head, which were designed to a safety standard that was in force at the time of manufacture. Their recertification/airworthiness is based on adherence to the original design criteria for the vehicle. A later design standard is only required if a safety issue is identified during operation. And even then, in the U.S. the government mandated newer standard is very often not the latest, most stringent iteration. Be very careful what level of power you think should be delegated to organizations such as ABYC, SAMS/NAMS..or insurance companies.
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Old 01-13-2021, 02:14 PM   #208
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In my mind, it's worth looking at the newer standards relative to the boat, but not applying them the same as you would for a new build. Plenty of things are not worth updating, or not reasonable to update. But in some cases, an update is easy or provides a large benefit, so it may make sense to suggest or require it.
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Old 01-13-2021, 02:14 PM   #209
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Just to stir the pot....if you were born in 1950 or whenever, would you want your healthcare to stay at that year's standards during physicals etc.? Or would you want your Dr. to apply some "new fangled" medicine to keep you alive and healthy?

So I agree about overzealous surveyors, but there is a reason to find some middle ground.
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Old 01-13-2021, 02:15 PM   #210
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And in defense of boatpoker, liveaboard boats are usually stuffed so full of crap, you can't access anything.
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Old 01-13-2021, 04:09 PM   #211
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FYI and if you are interested.....

https://yachtsinvest.com/faq/ce-yach...lassification/

My AT34 carries a B certificate. Nice to know the boat can survive that weather, not so sure if I would survive.
I suspect cabinet doors would be flying open and the contents fly to the lowest point and then, back again.
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Old 01-13-2021, 05:46 PM   #212
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Just to stir the pot....if you were born in 1950 or whenever, would you want your healthcare to stay at that year's standards during physicals etc.? Or would you want your Dr. to apply some "new fangled" medicine to keep you alive and healthy?

So I agree about overzealous surveyors, but there is a reason to find some middle ground.
Last time I checked, the boat wasn't a person, and doesn't have a vote. I want any elective for the boat to be my choice...not some surveyor forcing it on me via an insurance report. If they want to give me a sperate list of recommend items that's fine. Absolutely not OK if they put it in an insurance survey. If that's their mode of operation they get fired before they start. Some insurance companies don't see the difference between a recommendation and a real issue. We pay. Those boat owners who put up with that nonsense or even welcome it are part of the "safety creep' problem.
that the rest of us wind up paying for.
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Old 01-13-2021, 06:42 PM   #213
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Last time I checked, the boat wasn't a person, and doesn't have a vote. I want any elective for the boat to be my choice...not some surveyor forcing it on me via an insurance report. If they want to give me a sperate list of recommend items that's fine. Absolutely not OK if they put it in an insurance survey. If that's their mode of operation they get fired before they start. Some insurance companies don't see the difference between a recommendation and a real issue. We pay. Those boat owners who put up with that nonsense or even welcome it are part of the "safety creep' problem.
that the rest of us wind up paying for.
Then that shouldn't be a problem for you. There are lots of unqualified shady surveyors that will use the value you provide and gladly let you dictate a report that suits your ends.
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Old 01-13-2021, 07:40 PM   #214
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Then that shouldn't be a problem for you. There are lots of unqualified shady surveyors that will use the value you provide and gladly let you dictate a report that suits your ends.
Nothing to do with qualified or shady. Everything to do with some surveyors insisting on putting putting recommendations and associated later ABYC criteria into insurance reports. The surveyor community does it to pad their reports to show the insurance companies how competent they are, how indispensable they are to the insurance industry, and to support their partner organization ABYC. I will absolutely dictate that an insurance report not include extraneous opinion.
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Old 01-14-2021, 09:29 AM   #215
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With respect, your analogy is not even close to relevant.
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Just to stir the pot....if you were born in 1950 or whenever, would you want your healthcare to stay at that year's standards during physicals etc.? Or would you want your Dr. to apply some "new fangled" medicine to keep you alive and healthy?

So I agree about overzealous surveyors, but there is a reason to find some middle ground.
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Old 01-14-2021, 09:32 AM   #216
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Usually stuffed full of crap - another generalization with no basis in fact. I could easily argue that live aboards, the boat is their home you do know, maintain their home with pride. Remember, dirt home owners, some homes are a cluttered mess, others are neat as a pin. But, usually? Really.
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And in defense of boatpoker, liveaboard boats are usually stuffed so full of crap, you can't access anything.
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Old 01-14-2021, 09:37 AM   #217
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Rufus, absolutely. That is why I said I won't let any surveyor on board my boat without first knowing what he generally puts in his report. I have no respect for the ABYC because, as far as I know, it does not provide guidance to surveyors about what to put in a report and how to frame call-outs. The ABYC just writes standards and walks away. In many respects the ABYC does a disservice to boat owners. However, the really good surveyors are your friend.
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Last time I checked, the boat wasn't a person, and doesn't have a vote. I want any elective for the boat to be my choice...not some surveyor forcing it on me via an insurance report. If they want to give me a sperate list of recommend items that's fine. Absolutely not OK if they put it in an insurance survey. If that's their mode of operation they get fired before they start. Some insurance companies don't see the difference between a recommendation and a real issue. We pay. Those boat owners who put up with that nonsense or even welcome it are part of the "safety creep' problem.
that the rest of us wind up paying for.
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Old 01-14-2021, 09:40 AM   #218
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So, who are these shady guys? Anyway, what you are talking about is confined to an insurance survey. What we are talking about here is a purchase survey commissioned by a buyer.
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Then that shouldn't be a problem for you. There are lots of unqualified shady surveyors that will use the value you provide and gladly let you dictate a report that suits your ends.
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Old 01-14-2021, 09:43 AM   #219
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Wow! All I can say without disrespect is...wow! I don’t ever see being able to explain it. I’ll see if boatpoker wants the frustration of trying.
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Old 01-14-2021, 09:56 AM   #220
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Obviously, there is no explaining. As is usual on this forum, any forum, some opinions, some statements, offend others. And attempts at humor can often be misinterpreted. Boatpoker's opinion, his determination of what is right for him is, well, his right. It is also the right of others to disagree or be offended. Well-reasoned criticism should be encouraged, not criticsed, in my opinion.
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Wow! All I can say without disrespect is...wow! I donít ever see being able to explain it. Iíll see if boatpoker wants the frustration of trying.
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