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Old 09-17-2017, 04:04 AM   #21
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Liability insurance. Required by many if not a majority of marinas and boat yards. Also inexpensive and covers an unlikely risk but one which can have immense costs.

Hull insurance: Easy to argue you are careful and don't do stupid things. Yep, that will get you a reduced rate after five years of non-claims. However, twice in the last ten years I have had to listen to tales of woe from friends who have had their boat severely damaged through no fault of their own and couldn't collect from the person at fault.

If you go outside of the US, Canada or Australia beware of the rental operations. They claim no responsibility when their jet ski or Hobi crashes into your boat. You are left to chase the renter who may be from distant country where you will not find justice.

The second is even more frequent. You hire a workman who appears competent, but causes a fire, sinking or other damage only to find out the workman has no assets.

You can assume risks like these but don't cry injustice if your gamble goes bad.
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Old 09-17-2017, 09:18 AM   #22
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Liability insurance. Required by many if not a majority of marinas and boat yards. Also inexpensive and covers an unlikely risk but one which can have immense costs.

Hull insurance: Easy to argue you are careful and don't do stupid things. Yep, that will get you a reduced rate after five years of non-claims. However, twice in the last ten years I have had to listen to tales of woe from friends who have had their boat severely damaged through no fault of their own and couldn't collect from the person at fault.

If you go outside of the US, Canada or Australia beware of the rental operations. They claim no responsibility when their jet ski or Hobi crashes into your boat. You are left to chase the renter who may be from distant country where you will not find justice.

The second is even more frequent. You hire a workman who appears competent, but causes a fire, sinking or other damage only to find out the workman has no assets.

You can assume risks like these but don't cry injustice if your gamble goes bad.
Marty,

Good points, but there some other points to be made, too.

First, with liability: To have a liability judgement against you there are four things that must happen, and one is negligence... you must be negligent to be responsible, thus my comment about just not doing something stupid. You'll be fine if you don't do something stupid. (from my insurance agent).

Second, will hull insuring: You examples are just poppycock. Who the heck is going to a foreign country and have a jet ski run into them? Has it EVER happened? And who the heck lets and unknown workers on their precious boat? We certainly have a choice there.

Now, I've got NO problem if one wants to buy these products, and I do myself, when I feel the risk is appropriate. Right now, I've got both boats fully covered, and based on my comments here, I bet you're surprised. One boat I have partners in which insist on full coverage, which I'm trying to talk them out of. The other is a new boat, that will do a lot of traveling in new area with a new skipper... relatively high risk, and the premium is dirt cheap, so perhaps it makes sense.

Just with the numbers.... if one is a AVERAGE person, and partakes things with AVERAGE care and safety, and pays the AVERAGE premiums for his toys, and has the AVERAGE number of claims, he will end up loosing about 1/3rd of his dollar spent. But, I know that's not the answer folks like to hear. They all mention the multi million dollar award from someone that slipped on your boat. Heck, there's even a limit to how much liability you can purchase and if you hit a tour boat full of kids when you're drunk, you won't have enough.

Just a different view point... not good or bad.
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Old 09-17-2017, 09:37 AM   #23
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And speaking of statistics, if one wanted to significantly increase their boating safety:
1. Get training on how to operate, not go too fast, pay attention and get some experience.
2. Don't boat drunk or under the influence of drugs.

If you do those 2 things, you could easily improve you chances of avoiding an accident by 75%!

There's a lot of other little things and one can just pull up the USCG accident stats and figure them out.

http://www.uscgboating.org/library/a...stics-2016.pdf
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Old 09-17-2017, 03:30 PM   #24
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Marty,





Second, will hull insuring: You examples are just poppycock. Who the heck is going to a foreign country and have a jet ski run into them? Has it EVER happened? And who the heck lets and unknown workers on their precious boat? We certainly have a choice there.
Unfortunately, my examples actually have taken place. I have been in the Eastern Caribbean for ten years in April and have witnessed jet ski and Hobis T-Bone anchored cruising boats. I have also seen charted boats hit anchored boats both while underway and while dragging at anchor. At least once in each example the injured boat was unable to recover from the offending skipper/driver.

There are several trawlers on this site that have been to Rodney Bay St. Lucia. This is a well known issue.

The workman's example also is a real world example, the most memorable example of this is when a boater hired a boat yard employee to do some extra work and caused a fire on the boat. The boat yard denied liability because its employee was working off the clock.
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Old 09-17-2017, 04:39 PM   #25
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One of the downsides to web forums is that some people post very bad advice and if you are asking the question, you probably aren't in a position to tell the bad advice from the good advice.

This is the case on this thread.
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Old 09-17-2017, 05:01 PM   #26
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Yep, it's bad advice to assume all people need full coverage on their boats.


There are boaters who self insure for hull loss., and possibly other sections of insurance. Not many, but there is the low end of the spectrum that insurance costs seem disproportionate.


The advice here is given to spark the idea, not necessarily convince someone to do it. If they are unsure, legal advice with respect to losses should be discussed with an expert in the field.
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Old 09-17-2017, 05:05 PM   #27
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One of the downsides to web forums is that some people post very bad advice and if you are asking the question, you probably aren't in a position to tell the bad advice from the good advice.

This is the case on this thread.


Yep
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Old 09-17-2017, 05:24 PM   #28
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Tegan,
You can try Trident Insurance also. I'm not sure about their attitude to timber boats, but worth a try.

https://tridentmarine.com.au/

They do 3rd party liability insurance on its own if that works for you.
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Old 09-17-2017, 06:13 PM   #29
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Well said Steve (Auscan).
The thread has taken some odd turns. The OP doesn`t need convincing to get insurance. He wants it, hull and liability, but is having no success finding it. He is located in Australia, and I understand it, wants to cruise north, in Australia,he will likely not encounter rented foreign owned jetskis. He just wants help with possible avenues of insurance.
Steve made a suggestion, let`s hope it helps.
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Old 09-17-2017, 07:55 PM   #30
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Unfortunately, my examples actually have taken place. I have been in the Eastern Caribbean for ten years in April and have witnessed jet ski and Hobis T-Bone anchored cruising boats. I have also seen charted boats hit anchored boats both while underway and while dragging at anchor. At least once in each example the injured boat was unable to recover from the offending skipper/driver.

There are several trawlers on this site that have been to Rodney Bay St. Lucia. This is a well known issue.

The workman's example also is a real world example, the most memorable example of this is when a boater hired a boat yard employee to do some extra work and caused a fire on the boat. The boat yard denied liability because its employee was working off the clock.
Marty,

So you know the risk, why would you not avoid it? And if you hired a boat yard guy on the side, you get what you paid for.

And what was the bill to fix the jet ski crash?

Again....poppycock. Just a non issue.

For the record. how many times has this happened to YOU?
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Old 09-17-2017, 08:42 PM   #31
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Marty,

So you know the risk, why would you not avoid it? And if you hired a boat yard guy on the side, you get what you paid for.

And what was the bill to fix the jet ski crash?

Again....poppycock. Just a non issue.

For the record. how many times has this happened to YOU?
So, someone has an opinion differing from yours and you call it poppycock?

Whether to have hull coverage is a matter of one's own ability and willingness to accept risk. However, incidents happen every day that are not the fault of the boat owner but his insurer has to cover. Sometimes cause is not determined. Other times it's caused by someone who is unknown or who is judgement proof.

There's nothing wrong with self-insuring if you're comfortable with it. Just to one who does it, not saying you, don't want to hear the whining or anger when they have damage due to another's acts or acts of nature and have to pay out of pocket.
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Old 09-17-2017, 09:05 PM   #32
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Marty,

Good points, but there some other points to be made, too.

First, with liability: To have a liability judgement against you there are four things that must happen, and one is negligence... you must be negligent to be responsible, thus my comment about just not doing something stupid. You'll be fine if you don't do something stupid. (from my insurance agent).

Second, will hull insuring: You examples are just poppycock. Who the heck is going to a foreign country and have a jet ski run into them? Has it EVER happened? And who the heck lets and unknown workers on their precious boat? We certainly have a choice there.

Now, I've got NO problem if one wants to buy these products, and I do myself, when I feel the risk is appropriate. Right now, I've got both boats fully covered, and based on my comments here, I bet you're surprised. One boat I have partners in which insist on full coverage, which I'm trying to talk them out of. The other is a new boat, that will do a lot of traveling in new area with a new skipper... relatively high risk, and the premium is dirt cheap, so perhaps it makes sense.

Just with the numbers.... if one is a AVERAGE person, and partakes things with AVERAGE care and safety, and pays the AVERAGE premiums for his toys, and has the AVERAGE number of claims, he will end up loosing about 1/3rd of his dollar spent. But, I know that's not the answer folks like to hear. They all mention the multi million dollar award from someone that slipped on your boat. Heck, there's even a limit to how much liability you can purchase and if you hit a tour boat full of kids when you're drunk, you won't have enough.

Just a different view point... not good or bad.
All

Here's couple of recorded /copied issues regarding water borne(Jet Ski') from the NTSB Files,

1) Recreational-boating accidents are the second-largest transportation-related cause of injury in the U.S. (after automobile accidents).[4]
2)The vast majority of accidents (over 90 percent) were caused by operator error.
3)There is a significantly higher association with accidents for rental operators (nearly 25 percent) than is the case for the general boating population; however, this may be related to the higher percentage of rental operators.[10]
4) As a general rule of thumb the Coast Guard believes that it receives about 10% of the "property damage only" accidents, but 90% of the serious personal injury accidents.
5) According to the NTSB, 24 percent of reported PWC accidents list steering problems or loss of control as contributing factors;[17] in Florida, it is the second-leading cause of PWC-related accidents. PWC manufacturers have been working to develop a system to prevent off-throttle steering. Modifications have been made to solve this problem in newer PWC models.[22]

HERE'S JUST A FEW of the more than hundreds of accidents a year involving strikes to moored craft


6) Police said initial inquiries suggested the DEAD teen, who was on holidays from overseas, was riding a jet ski when she collided with a Sunlover Reef Cruises vessel that was moored at the Marina.
7)Emergency personnel were on scene at Modesto Reservoir after an accident involving a boat and a jet ski led to the death of one person and injuries to two others on Sunday, May 28, 2017. Stanislaus County Sheriff's Department
8)Mayday call after jet-ski starts to sink after collision and yacht runs aground
9)Yacht capsizes after incident with jet-ski crashes into wall: At ... by NSRI Vaal Dam back to the couples mooring at the Stillbay Yacht ...


And here's why: One of the most common types of collisions(with moored craft) is caused by PWC's inherent lack of steering whenever water isn't being shot out of the stern. There is no rudder. Some newer models have devices that assist off-throttle steering, but the boats still have very limited slow-speed maneuverability and nearly no maneuverability at high speeds when the throttle is suddenly closed.


Makes you think!


Cheers Steve
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Old 09-17-2017, 09:23 PM   #33
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And if your still not convinced, Picture's worth a thousand words,
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Old 09-17-2017, 09:40 PM   #34
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Carrying insurance policy portrays a somewhat reverse similarity to buying a lotto ticket.

In that:

Lotto cost over a lifetime can be small in the scope of things. But... Its not needed fun potential is for "maybe" making you suddenly rich.

Insurance cost over a lifetime can be relatively large in the scope of things. But... Its much needed safety potential is to make sure you can stay a little bit rich and don't suddenly go broke!
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Old 09-17-2017, 11:19 PM   #35
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Good grief! What are you guys doing?
The OP newbie WANTS to get insurance. How is this bickering helping him?
Why not start you own thread about the wisdom of insuring or not insuring.
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Old 09-18-2017, 02:58 AM   #36
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So, someone has an opinion differing from yours and you call it poppycock?

Whether to have hull coverage is a matter of one's own ability and willingness to accept risk. However, incidents happen every day that are not the fault of the boat owner but his insurer has to cover. Sometimes cause is not determined. Other times it's caused by someone who is unknown or who is judgement proof.

There's nothing wrong with self-insuring if you're comfortable with it. Just to one who does it, not saying you, don't want to hear the whining or anger when they have damage due to another's acts or acts of nature and have to pay out of pocket.
BandB.

I'm referring SPECIFICALLY to Martys comments, which actually are pretty far fetched:

<<<If you go outside of the US, Canada or Australia beware of the rental operations. They claim no responsibility when their jet ski or Hobi crashes into your boat. You are left to chase the renter who may be from distant country where you will not find justice.

The second is even more frequent. You hire a workman who appears competent, but causes a fire, sinking or other damage only to find out the workman has no assets.>>>


First, the vast majority of us don't go outside of the US, Canada or Australia, and
how many are really hit by uninsured jet ski operators that have customers from other countries? And as for the incompetent, uninsured mechanic that burns your boat down.... I'd bet there's just as many ones working for legit companies that do that.

I'm not criticizing Marty's opinion, I'm point out the his examples are just a non issue.
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Old 09-18-2017, 03:00 AM   #37
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All

Here's couple of recorded /copied issues regarding water borne(Jet Ski') from the NTSB Files,

1) Recreational-boating accidents are the second-largest transportation-related cause of injury in the U.S. (after automobile accidents).[4]
2)The vast majority of accidents (over 90 percent) were caused by operator error.
3)There is a significantly higher association with accidents for rental operators (nearly 25 percent) than is the case for the general boating population; however, this may be related to the higher percentage of rental operators.[10]
4) As a general rule of thumb the Coast Guard believes that it receives about 10% of the "property damage only" accidents, but 90% of the serious personal injury accidents.
5) According to the NTSB, 24 percent of reported PWC accidents list steering problems or loss of control as contributing factors;[17] in Florida, it is the second-leading cause of PWC-related accidents. PWC manufacturers have been working to develop a system to prevent off-throttle steering. Modifications have been made to solve this problem in newer PWC models.[22]

HERE'S JUST A FEW of the more than hundreds of accidents a year involving strikes to moored craft


6) Police said initial inquiries suggested the DEAD teen, who was on holidays from overseas, was riding a jet ski when she collided with a Sunlover Reef Cruises vessel that was moored at the Marina.
7)Emergency personnel were on scene at Modesto Reservoir after an accident involving a boat and a jet ski led to the death of one person and injuries to two others on Sunday, May 28, 2017. Stanislaus County Sheriff's Department
8)Mayday call after jet-ski starts to sink after collision and yacht runs aground
9)Yacht capsizes after incident with jet-ski crashes into wall: At ... by NSRI Vaal Dam back to the couples mooring at the Stillbay Yacht ...


And here's why: One of the most common types of collisions(with moored craft) is caused by PWC's inherent lack of steering whenever water isn't being shot out of the stern. There is no rudder. Some newer models have devices that assist off-throttle steering, but the boats still have very limited slow-speed maneuverability and nearly no maneuverability at high speeds when the throttle is suddenly closed.


Makes you think!


Cheers Steve
Steve,

See my answer to BandB, above.
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Old 09-18-2017, 03:05 AM   #38
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And if your still not convinced, Picture's worth a thousand words,
And these are from the NTSB, not foreign countries. Nothing is known about who was insured or not.
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Old 09-18-2017, 03:13 AM   #39
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Good grief! What are you guys doing?
The OP newbie WANTS to get insurance. How is this bickering helping him?
Why not start you own thread about the wisdom of insuring or not insuring.
Bruce,

Agreed. When I made the suggestion to Tegan to consider self insuring, it was a legitimate consideration for a solution, and one person simple said it's bad advise... which isn't necessarily true. I apologize for responding to him, which led into the off thread discussions.

I then suggested he consider a broker who can go to bat for him, which is another option, as he indicated his choice was to be insured. I'll leave that advice to Tegan, and drop the debate.
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Old 09-18-2017, 11:53 AM   #40
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Bruce,

Agreed. When I made the suggestion to Tegan to consider self insuring, it was a legitimate consideration for a solution, and one person simple said it's bad advise... which isn't necessarily true. I apologize for responding to him, which led into the off thread discussions.

I then suggested he consider a broker who can go to bat for him, which is another option, as he indicated his choice was to be insured. I'll leave that advice to Tegan, and drop the debate.
Seavee. Your feelings on self insurance are well known and perhaps appropriate for you. I appreciate you did direct him to a broker. I do caution a couple of things on self insurance. Most people who come on here do not have your financial means and can't as easily absorb the loss. For some, it's their home and they couldn't replace it. Second, most don't have your risk tolerance. You are unique and your situation is. What is right for you isn't right for the majority of people here.

That's something I have to regularly remind myself of and I think many here do, that our situation is very different from many others and doing things the way we do them might not be right for them. The prime example is we never worry about fuel consumption, but the vast majority do.

You don't come across sometimes as saying it's your way but might not be right for others. Sometimes it's more like "Anyone buying insurance is an idiot."
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