Why serious boaters do better in Hurricanes

[BandB]

Originally Posted by HopCar

Already have a whole house generator ordered. It will come with an automatic switch.

In Fort Lauderdale, the size limit on generators keeps us from being whole house. We have a set up so we can determine what to have on.

[HopCar]

Originally Posted by BandB

In Fort Lauderdale, the size limit on generators keeps us from being whole house. We have a set up so we can determine what to have on.

It never occurred to me that there might be a size limit on generators. The one I have ordered will not entirely replace the line power. I have to stager the start of the air conditioners. During a long outage, I plan to only air condition the bedrooms and we won't use the electric stove in order to save fuel. It's a 22 kw unit.

What is the limit in Ft. Lauderdale?

[BandB]

Originally Posted by HopCar

It never occurred to me that there might be a size limit on generators. The one I have ordered will not entirely replace the line power. I have to stager the start of the air conditioners. During a long outage, I plan to only air condition the bedrooms and we won't use the electric stove in order to save fuel. It's a 22 kw unit.

What is the limit in Ft. Lauderdale?

40 square feet and 5 feet high. It's not really a limiting factor. Just a pain to get all the permits and if you're not using natural gas then fuel storage is a challenge. We are whole house except if we go wild in the kitchen.

What fuel do you use?

[ksanders]

I’m a fan of diesel generators. If the natural gas goes out your diesel tank will still be there. If you run out of diesel you can go get more (hopefully). Pretty hard to bring home some natural gas.

The National Electrical Code actually adresses this issue in that it requires onsite fuel storage for leagally required standby systems.

For optional standby systems (like at your house) that utilize an Automatic Transfer switch, make sure that you meet the NEC requirement that the generator be sized to the NEC calculated load that it will supply, or that you have automatic load shedding in place. This might affect your passing inspection for your permit.

Make sure that your system is UL listed. For Transfer Switches make sure that the transfer switch is UL-1008 listed for its intended use. UL-1008 compliant is not good enough for all inspectors. UL-1008 listed is the standard to look for.

When installing your whole house transfer switch make sure that you are meeting NEC article 230, and insuring the first thing past your meter base is a overcurrent and disconnecting device. This is called you “service entrance”. This can be either intergal or or separate from your Automatic Transfer Switch. If you are not using a separate “service entrance” then make sure your Automatic Transfer Switch is “service entrance rated” and meets UL-1008 and UL 891 standards.

I have seen allot of generator companies come and go in hurricane prone areas, especially after an active season. Become knowledgable about what you are buying, and do not rely on your generator installer as your sole source of information. The really good installers stick around, and in this world you really do get what you pay for. There are no bargains.

[HopCar]

Originally Posted by BandB

40 square feet and 5 feet high. It's not really a limiting factor. Just a pain to get all the permits and if you're not using natural gas then fuel storage is a challenge. We are whole house except if we go wild in the kitchen.

What fuel do you use?

I'll have five 100 gallon propane tanks. Each tank will be filled to 80% so that's about 400 gallons of propane. I also have another 50 gallons in portable tanks that I have already for my portable 5 kw generator. The 5 kw portable will also run on gasoline.

If I run the generator 24 hours a day at full load, I'll only get about four to five days out of it. I think by limiting the AC to just the bedrooms I'll be able to get by on only about 12 kw or less and hope to stretch the fuel out to ten days. It took ten days to get power back after Andrew and 11 days after Irma. I could easily buy gasoline and propane after about five days.

[firstbase]

Originally Posted by Lepke

People that abandon their boats to a hurricane raise the insurance rates for all of us. People that live in known hurricane areas and don't build their houses to hurricane standards raise the insurance rates for all of us.

Quite obsessed with the effect of us Floridians on your insurance rates up there now aren't ya? Second time in a month you want to blab on about it as well as your meteorological Superpowers.

Originally Posted by Lepke

Everybody in those areas should be aware supplies will become scarce before and after a major storm. It's no secret, in my long life I've seen it every time.

Wow. Thanks Lepke. I'm going to tell all of my neighbors about this! Who knew?? Supplies get scarce during a storm??? Huh. Go figure. I'll probably alert the media as well. During the next storm maybe they can send a reporter into the grocery store and do some reporting in front of empty shelves where the bottled water used to be! I will be sure to give you credit for the idea.

Originally Posted by Lepke

I've dodged hurricanes and tsunamis. I always managed to know the path of the storm or where a tsunami would be dangerous. There is plenty of time to move boats before the ocean is dangerous in either case. Hurricane likely paths are known many days and hundreds of miles in advance. In a week, even a sailboat could be 500 miles out of the path.

Everyone down here should pay close attention to Lepke on this one. Apparently, we can simply call him and he will tell us exactly where a hurricane is going to go a week in advance and...more incredibly...pay close attention to this one....where a tsunami is going to hit. Now THOSE are some awesome Superpowers.

Lepke, had you been here for Irma you would not have gone up the east coast, down to the Keys or escaped to the Caribbean. Those choices would have been foolish a week out as by all accounts and models this was going to be an east coast storm. What would Super Lepke have done? You would have done what many did. Cross the Okeechobee Waterway to get to the west coast of Florida coming out at Ft. Myers. As we all now know this would have put you as close to the eye of the storm as you could possibly get.

Rumors of your incredible abilities are greatly exaggerated. Mostly by you.

[psneeld]

Well to be fair, moving to safer waters in a tsunami is pretty easy as long as you have a couple hours to get to the boat and underway.

As far as hurricanes.....its not the ones that follow the predictions for day after day that scare you especially if the predictions stay consistent.....it is the Sandys and others that the pros have no idea of the track till the last hours that should scare anyone.

Sandy was the first cane I ever moved one of my boats for. While in the USCG, the stations I was at moved their boats many times because of antiquidated rules. The rules were based on prediction capability from the 60s.....fortunely things are a lot better.

I would put my analysis and guessing against most anyone's except those in the industry, and it still made me move for Sandy. I picked the only hurricane hole on the East Coast that the eye actually went over.

Not that my marina was great ....but if I headed south towards it, I might have been another Bounty, if I headed north 100 miles to the New York area, things might have bern worse.

So while I think getting out of harms way is great, few really have the ability to do it, and even those cant guess better than the pros where to go. But alas, if willing to go the distance, and leave early enough, yes you can probably get someplace safe enough.

[OldDan1943]

RTF, historically, I have heard of some yards that tell all the boat owners, get your boat, off the jacks and out of their yard before the hurricane. Sounds like the yard's insurance situation.

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. OD. Regarding our previous insurance company and their changing policy (must be ashore)...I never looked into yard storage on the Outer Banks so I so not know what the policy is/was of the yards there. Moot, in any case as we now have an underwriter that seems to understand the implications and vagaries of hurricanes.

I think "Hope for the best and plan for the worst" is the adage that most aptly applies here. I suspect the "serious boaters", as mentioned by the OP in post #1 are the ones that already have enough heavy lines, adequate bilge pumps etc. to be the most prepared for what may blow in.

[firstbase]

Well if tsunami's are easier to predict why all of the death and destruction on the beaches in Japan in 2011? 8.6 quake offshore and nobody seemed to know anything was coming or do anything to safeguard human life. As for hurricanes all I know is the last two storms. 2-3 days out Matthew and Irma were forecast to directly hit where I live and dock my boat. Both ended up far from it. I guess with Matthew I could have moved to the other coast and it would have ended up being a safer place but with Irma it would have been bad. As I mentioned in a previous thread others insurance costs were better served by my staying put and taking significant precautions beginning with moving the boat from a lovely but unprotected marina to a smaller know hurricane hole, $1,100 in new and additional dock lines, and a placement of the boat in the slip plan that allowed me to double tie off to concrete pilings and put an anchor out to help prevent drag from north winds, the one less protected direction I have in the slip.

If we are all going to worry about the increased cost of insurance to others because of where we live and what we do, what about the cost of my home owners insurance due to all of those people who live on fault lines from San Diego to Alaska including Mr. Lepke's PNW where "the big one" is long overdue? I think Lepke should move to Cincinnati. Save me some money.

[psneeld]

My point with tsunamis is a mile off the beach in a boat and you can be safe, a mile inland and you can still die.

I experienced a few in Alaskan waters on USCG cutters and you never even know they went by but those on shore could tell for sure...and even then, barely in some places and some bays siignificant.

But remember I did say you need enough time to get underway...thats not always possible or practical like getting out of the way for hurricanes.

Staying put directly in the path of a hurricane versus moving left or right a couple hundred miles is never the best idea. The trick is to make sure you arent putting yourself in its path and thats the trick which even the pros have a hard time with. The north south orientation for much of Florida makes it a true guessing game. Up in the panhandle moving right or left is a lot easier if the predictions are tight the last few days.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by RT Firefly

Greetings,
Mr. 61. Now, moving a vessel way south of historical hurricane paths IS an option if available.

That is **all** I was talking about, sorry if I wasn't more clear.

[OldDan1943]

RTF, I rode out Irma in a marina, east coast of FL a bit north of Miami. 3-4 ft storm surge came on a falling tide. The surge did over top the seawall a couple of inches. (about 5 miles from the nearest cut) This marina was on the dirty side of Irma but fairly well protected by the high rise condos, on the east side, except for that open space on the southeast side. SMIRK
I did see 80+ knot wind gusts but who hangs around the apparent wind indicator.... No doubt it was more.
I opted to remain onboard because I had new dock lines and a concrete dock on the port side. Granted I did stretch the dock lines a number of times while exercising the shaft at the dock but, not the same as a hurricane.
Yes, I did double up all lines, put away the water hose, put the RIB in the water and in the protection of the starboard bow. (bow in) I put some water in the RIB for added weight. The only line that needed attention was the aft starboard line. I think I tightened it up 2 or 3 times during the night. I had just about all my fenders out on the port side too.
Results of Irma: One 30ft boat sank, rubbed a hole in the starboard side of the hull, against a concrete dock. One 80+ boat pulled its pilings and ended up against a concrete sea wall and rocks. The broker sent a crew to move the boat to a different slip. I suspect there was shaft and prop damage. When they moved the boat, there was a lot grunting and smoke while trying to get it into another slip. It left 2 days after the storm.
3 or 4 boats suffered fiberglass damage, all because of improperly adjusted or 'failed to adjust" lines. One boat suffered bow damage from not moving it back enough from the seawall. Prior to moving the boat, he taped over the bow with that "As seen on TV" water proof tape. It went straight to the yard for repair.
Everyone around us in the condos and marina lost power. Because of my inverters and battery capacity, I could have turned on all the lights etc for two or 3 days. Not wanting to look too comfortable, I sat with a couple of 12vt lights on, watching TV, drinking hot fresh coffee. I could have started the generator but, why bother. We were without power for less than 24 hours. We got our power back quickly because we are fed from the same lines as the hospital, at the end of the block. Aren't I lucky. That was an accidental discovery.
I had 2 or 3 offers to stay with folks in the condos but as I told them, "I am 74 years old. I have lived a long, happy and exciting life. If I die, I die but if the boat sinks, I'll be pissed."
I did question the wisdom of my decision twice, for about 1 second each time, but by then, the wind was blowing too hard to safely leave the boat.
Would I do it again? No doubt, I would. So you see, with age not always does wisdom follow.
Each night, I slept very soundly without benefit of drugs or booze. LOL
This was the 3rd hurricane I have ridden out in this marina. The first two, on my Nordavn. (bent a cleat ear) This was a first for this American Tug. No damage.
Way too many folks tie high on the pilings, allowing the piling to flex. With the 46ft Nordhavn, I used lines and chains, dropping them to the bottom of the pilings. With this American Tug, I tie about midway down the pilings. Seems to work for me.

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. 61. No worries. You clarified your comment quite adequately. Now, if my 103 year plan comes together I may have that option if and when I ever decide to move aboard...Hmmm...

[john61ct]

Sorry meant as a reply to:

> Mr. 61 keeps redefining his statement

[OldDan1943]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Sorry meant as a reply to:

> Mr. 61 keeps redefining his statement

Redefining is good if it is based upon additional incoming information.
IE, "when did they put in that seawall?"

[BandB]

Originally Posted by OldDan1943

Redefining is good if it is based upon additional incoming information.
IE, "when did they put in that seawall?"

Nothing wrong with redefining but not knowing what he meant originally, some of us were responding to what he typed originally and that was not what he intended.

[john61ct]

I read:

>> Anyone have thoughts of moving out of hurricane territory?

I responded:

> That's what the smart boats do, every year

as I have said, and apologized for, leaving out **my** intended context of talking about boats only, nothing to do with people living on land in cane zone locations.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by john61ct

I read:

>> Anyone have thoughts of moving out of hurricane territory?

I responded:

> That's what the smart boats do, every year

as I have said, and apologized for, leaving out **my** intended context of talking about boats only, nothing to do with people living on land in cane zone locations.

But now you say you're talking liveaboards in the Caribbean and not those of us with boats in Florida. Nothing to apologize for, just we didn't know the target of your remarks.

[john61ct]

I usually include Florida as belonging in "the Caribbean" when the topic is the hurricane zone. I now realize that isn't fully precise.