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Old 12-16-2018, 08:45 PM   #121
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I'm afraid that on average the crafts you mention don't approach six figures. Perhaps the top 10% might. The professionals you mention do. There is a definite delineation in most companies between degreed professionals and non-degreed craftspeople. I could make arguments there shouldn't be or even arguments the craftspeople should be paid more than the engineers based on the work performed and conditions.
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Are you aware of where NS is employed? Appears he is being area and industry specific.

With the right tickets, experience and certifications, working in the "oil patch" can easily garner one an easy 6 figures. These guys do get their hands dirty though.
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Old 12-16-2018, 08:47 PM   #122
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We just bought our third diesel vessel over 40ft this summer and I have to agree with Fortitude. The buying processis is not very friendly and full of deal breaking obstacles. One has to be very motivated to complete a deal. I found the brokers difficult to deal with. The survey process for me was a waste of money. I had the engines surveyed seperate from the vessel. I used reputable companies. including the local caterpillar dealer. The company that surveyed the vessel found something wrong with one of the engines that caterpillar missed and that was a $5000 repair, but they missed alot on the vessel and gave very poor guidance and opinion. Insurance was difficult. My Gen X daughter would have done a better job. We bought our first diesel vessel over 40ft, 27 years ago so I can't imagine if this was my first.
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Old 12-16-2018, 08:50 PM   #123
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I'm afraid that on average the crafts you mention don't approach six figures. Perhaps the top 10% might. The professionals you mention do. There is a definite delineation in most companies between degreed professionals and non-degreed craftspeople. I could make arguments there shouldn't be or even arguments the craftspeople should be paid more than the engineers based on the work performed and conditions.
Thanks for the laugh!

Maybe in the States, that's true, but certainly not in Canada.

There is a glut of engineers currently. China, India and the ME are pumping them out by the hundreds. Unfortunately, math skills seems to be the ONLY prerequisite. Engineers are the first to be laid off in a downturn. No capital, no engineers.

Good engineers will always garner a premium, but they are getting pretty rare.

Case in point, I know an P. Eng who had his 3rd class steam ticket. He had to fight HR to move from the office to become a field operator because he would make more money.

People who can operate complex plants, or plan, execute or supervise maintenance work are getting pretty rare in North America and are paid a premium. And when I say work, I mean building or producing a tangible physical item. Not moving electrons on a computer.

I would say half of management comes from operations or trades in many of the facilities I've worked in.

The highest paid people at my plant today do NOT have college degrees. They are all making in excess of a quarter million annually.

This will change when office management shows up tomorrow. But not by much or by many.
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Old 12-16-2018, 09:39 PM   #124
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NS
Few understand the benefits of being employed in the natural resource sector. With the exception of a couple of Aussies onboard, there are few others on TF that know what a tiger torch, shovel track or bed liner are used for.

25 years ago when I made my first trip to Russia looking for viable mineral projects, it was interesting to note the fixed wage structure had underground miners, offshore drillers and exotic metal welders at the top of the heap. Doctors, IT guys and sales people were way down the list.
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Old 12-16-2018, 09:52 PM   #125
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BB
Are you aware of where NS is employed? Appears he is being area and industry specific.

With the right tickets, experience and certifications, working in the "oil patch" can easily garner one an easy 6 figures. These guys do get their hands dirty though.
Yes, I intended to say they don't approach six figures in the US, the point being much higher where he is.
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Old 12-16-2018, 09:53 PM   #126
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Mr. ancora. Thank you. (post #120). My point exactly! The same disdain for skilled blue collar workers exists today and equally for a lot of children who might consider and be better suited for these types of skilled job.
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Old 12-16-2018, 09:55 PM   #127
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Thanks for the laugh!

Maybe in the States, that's true, but certainly not in Canada.

There is a glut of engineers currently. China, India and the ME are pumping them out by the hundreds. Unfortunately, math skills seems to be the ONLY prerequisite. Engineers are the first to be laid off in a downturn. No capital, no engineers.

Good engineers will always garner a premium, but they are getting pretty rare.

Case in point, I know an P. Eng who had his 3rd class steam ticket. He had to fight HR to move from the office to become a field operator because he would make more money.

People who can operate complex plants, or plan, execute or supervise maintenance work are getting pretty rare in North America and are paid a premium. And when I say work, I mean building or producing a tangible physical item. Not moving electrons on a computer.

I would say half of management comes from operations or trades in many of the facilities I've worked in.

The highest paid people at my plant today do NOT have college degrees. They are all making in excess of a quarter million annually.

This will change when office management shows up tomorrow. But not by much or by many.
I intended to say in the US. Much different than Canada in that respect.

The Company I worked for had a division President and a Controller without degrees and once hired it never married, but we were definitely the exception in our area.
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Old 12-16-2018, 10:01 PM   #128
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Greetings,
Mr. ancora. Thank you. My point exactly! The same disdain for skilled blue collar workers exists today.
I certainly have no disdain for them, have tremendous appreciation for the work they do. Not just trades people but those in retail, operators in manufacturing. Also, toss in teachers and law enforcement and fire. Should include nurses too. All of those mentioned are, in my opinion, underpaid for their efforts. Adding to that in the US is healthcare where the same amount as white collar workers is a much larger percentage hit to them.

The reality too is we're not talking about a small portion of our society but a very large part of it, the majority falling into these various groups of underpaid and not adequately taken care of.
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Old 12-16-2018, 10:10 PM   #129
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Greetings,
Mr. BB. It is admirable that you appreciate skilled blue collar workers. You are most definitely the exception. Now, convince the educational establishment that there is no shame in getting one's hands dirty while making a living.
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Old 12-16-2018, 10:14 PM   #130
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Actually the trade are somewhat but not completely included in "Some college or associate degree" and I respect them greatly. I don't say always go to a regular college program but I do say get an education and include learning a trade being that. However, on the whole, those who learn trades still don't earn what college graduates do. You pay your HVAC or Plumber a good bit but the employee isn't earning those amounts. The company is. Plumbers average about $50,000 a year so that would fit in at $961 per week and still be less than college graduates. The median for electricians is $53,000 a year. Now both of those do beat teachers who earn on average $46,000 a year. Patrol officers about $60,000 a year.

I don't think everyone should go to a traditional four year college. In fact, I think colleges do a poor job for some professions. I'll mention programmers and systems analysts. A Devry graduate can step in and be more productive than a college graduate. However, the college graduate with a post grad degree is far more likely to one day be in charge of IT.

I think we need better trade programs and they need to be available and affordable. We need to teach trades, but that doesn't mean the average trades person will make what the average college graduate does anymore than the average teacher will. My wife did a study of our college programs versus Europe and found one huge difference. We push a liberal arts education, first two years largely the same for all students and a broad group of subjects. Europe focuses on training for their future profession. You launch into your major area of concentration immediately.

One other area in which our training of trades people is very deficient. They're not trained in business. Not in charging appropriately for their work, in running a business if they wish, in earning what they deserve. So, the vast majority of trades people have very modest incomes while someone else is making good money as a result of their efforts. Tipping has been discussed on this site often and we're well aware that what we pay isn't what the worker is making so we do tip trades people when their employer doesn't have a strict rule prohibiting it.

I think post high school education should be tuition free for all and that should extend to colleges or trades education. I do think states and cities should offer trades educations through technical colleges and community colleges. Some do, some don't. NC community colleges do this better than most. Florida doesn't come close.

I'm for education, quality education. I don't care if it's in traditional college courses or trades or what.
You said that "post HS education should be free for all" which is a current leftist political talking point. So you want to heavily tax lower wage earners to pay for "Womens studies in Mongolia" and "Counting repiles in Montana to solve global warming" and a true one "Sports Politics in Business" degrees?????
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Old 12-16-2018, 10:21 PM   #131
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You said that "post HS education should be free for all" which is a current leftist political talking point. So you want to heavily tax lower wage earners to pay for "Womens studies in Mongolia" and "Counting repiles in Montana to solve global warming" and a true one "Sports Politics in Business" degrees?????
You also said "Teachers make less than those with College Degrees.""" Geez all the teacher I have known had college degrees many with grad Degrees. My wife went and got a Government paid MSN Masters of Nursing degree which was zero about nursing and totally about Medical billing. This was from Phoenix University which is a complete phony farce built entirely about them (the owners) getting people student loans
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Old 12-16-2018, 10:41 PM   #132
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Sad to see the thread politicized(#130),so unnecessary.
Apart from its many Universities,Australia has the TAFE system,which stands for Technical and Further Education. It provides a good teaching service and is well regarded, though funding is an issue. We had private colleges, still do, but we had some bad ones whose interests were more financial than educational,and some students, and the public purse, were ripped off. Fortunately TAFE continues.
Nursing became a University course here,not an improvement imo. There are other ways to do Nursing, at several different levels.
It is important students do some practical training in a workplace, as Apprenticeship provides. Otherwise they graduate or qualify with little practical skill.I tend to regard tertiary education as just that, where it is derived matters less than the expertise people gain.
And for those with skills, and a good head for business,a financially rewarding career awaits.
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Old 12-16-2018, 10:57 PM   #133
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Every parent would like to see their children be successful so "Go to college/university and get a good job" is drummed into the younger folks. Schools are in the business of preparing kids for college. I can't see many parents or schools telling little Johnny "You should become a stonemason".


Little Johnny might be very poor academically, not for lack of intelligence but simply lack of interest. HIS strength may very well be auto mechanics or woodworking but IF that particular skill is not recognized and nurtured he may easily become a drop out and thus a failure in the eyes of society simply because he didn't go to college.
We should guide young people toward careers that match their aptitude and interests. Some schools do that and others don't. We should have technical colleges or community colleges with technical programs that students are encouraged to go to and that they can afford to attend. In many areas, trade schools are private and are very expensive.

I realize many advise all students the same and that's unfortunate. I can point to specific high schools in Mississippi that discourage all students from any four year college. Whether they feel the students are too dumb or they recognize how horrible their school is, I can't say.

I'll toss out one other thing that would help and that is cooperative programs between these community colleges and industry. Industry with needs should be able to approach them and get training programs. Then graduates of those programs will have employment waiting. I recall years ago a community college in Asheboro, NC, not far from High Point, NC the center of the furniture industry, put in a commercial photography program, working with the furniture industry. Everyone who completed the program had a job waiting in High Point. The furniture companies there only wanted these photographers as they were trained in exactly what they needed.

One problem is most kids don't really have a very good opportunity to explore their aptitude and interests. They don't discover what they'd like to do in English class nor do they do so working after school in fast food. That's why over 1/3 of college graduates changed their major along the way on top of those who never finished. That's on top of the 40% who don't get degrees where they start. Sadly, those in the STEM fields (Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics) are changing out of those fields the most with over 50% of those who start as Math majors changing.

I don't have numbers, but suspect trade schools see the same or greater changes. Are we counseling poorly or are we expecting kids to choose too soon? How do we get young people greater exposure to careers they might excel in? I know some parents do an excellent job of helping their kids find the right fit while others select fit based on what the parent wants, not considering the kid. My parents had a path picked out for me and while my father died while I was in college, my mother was furious when I told her I wasn't going to grad school or into the prescribed career. She made it clear I was getting no more help from her and I told her I was expecting none, had an apartment leased and job interviews set up and had money saved she was unaware of.

I know at the orphanage we have a college and career counselor there regularly and we try to get kids summer jobs that match their future interests. We encourage continuing their education. Fortunately, the local community college 20,000 students while the local state college has 29,000 and they can attend either while living at the orphanage at no cost since they're considered foster children. The community college has great programs with business and has programs across a huge range of professions and trades. The vast majority of their grads who don't intend to transfer for a four year degree have jobs before they graduate. Schools like they are do a lot toward making non college routes acceptable and encouraging them. We have many kids who have found very good careers through their programs from diesel mechanic to heavy equipment mechanic to fire and medic persons to one policewoman to Nursing to Pharmacy Tech to web developer to hospitality to dental hygiene to web developing to construction to welding. Some of the trades mentioned in this discussion don't exist in that area. We did have one who is now employed at one of Duke Power's Nuclear Plants.

How well does the orphanage do toward helping kids figure it out? About 80% continue as they plan. 20% change course. I think you should always have some to change plans and courses as they learn more and know even years down the road many will change.
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Old 12-16-2018, 11:14 PM   #134
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You also said "Teachers make less than those with College Degrees.""" Geez all the teacher I have known had college degrees many with grad Degrees. My wife went and got a Government paid MSN Masters of Nursing degree which was zero about nursing and totally about Medical billing. This was from Phoenix University which is a complete phony farce built entirely about them (the owners) getting people student loans
No, I did not say that. I said the average teacher makes less than the average person with a college degree. Teachers pay is below average for college graduates. My wife has a masters and doctorate and a highly sought specialization and her salary was around $60k, about $14k above that of teachers with just Bachelor's degrees and similar experience and about the same as those with Bachelor's and 25 years experience versus her 5 years. Teachers in her district started around $38k.

I happen to agree with you on Phoenix although I knew some who parlayed Phoenix MBA's into very good jobs. I'm a strong supporter of state schools and have lived in two states with excellent State Colleges. I went to a State School vs. a prestigious private university against my parents' wishes.
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Old 12-16-2018, 11:34 PM   #135
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Greetings,
Mr. BB. Commendable that the orphanage is so successful in helping kids choose the career that's good for them(80%). So, why is the rest of the country doing such a dismal job?


Mods: If this comment crosses the line, by all means, delete it please.
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Old 12-17-2018, 12:25 AM   #136
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Greetings,
Mr. BB. Commendable that the orphanage is so successful in helping kids choose the career that's good for them(80%). So, why is the rest of the country doing such a dismal job?


Mods: If this comment crosses the line, by all means, delete it please.
I'd say two reasons. First, they don't devote the resources to it the orphanage does. Second, in a public school you have a wide mix of students and many have no interest in a program related to future interests. In an orphanage you have a captive audience and it's much like a family's home where they can interest the kids. A lot of time is devoted to all the kids discussing different professions as well in a relaxed setting. There were about 4-5 graduates a year and now with the increased size about 8 to 10 graduates a year but that's a lot more manageable than a school dealing with 600 graduates a year.

Now, why do parents not do better? That would be parents trying to steer rather than assist and support the young person in making their choice. Many parents are poor listeners and others just ill equipped to assist well. The orphanage kids also have a lot of older siblings to talk to about it as well. We do occasionally have the kid who says they're tired of school and just want to work for now and all we ask is that they pledge they'll discuss and reconsider in a year. Have had a couple who in that year really found something they wanted to pursue and then went to school. We have been scared because we know of students who say they'll go back to school, how many don't. However, we've had good luck with them returning and actually having benefited from the year off.

The orphanage stresses finding what makes you happy in life. Sometimes parents want you to do what makes you happy as long as it's what they want you to do. Sometimes kids try to live up to expectations when parents don't expect or require it. It's still a challenge sometimes like when you have a girl who has only ever had one thing in mind, singing and dancing and acting in musicals. Odds are horrible. She's on Broadway and hasn't yet been a star but has had continuous work from one musical to the next. Then one who wants to be an artist and paint. Just finding someone qualified to talk to her and to evaluate her aptitude was a huge challenge. The mentor thought she had potential but told her while studying she needed to sell, to set up in every arts and craft show she could. Problem was she was horribly shy. However, several of her brothers and sisters in the orphanage are not so they went with her to these events. She got more comfortable and sold a few items each show, gradually raising her prices. She's still in college and still learning but her mentor is convinced she can make it. Also she's going to take a couple of commercial art courses so she can do some of that if she must to make a living and allow her to continue to paint. She's been introduced to a lot of artists too and asked us one time "Artists are weird people. Am I as weird as all the others?" We said "Yes, beautifully so. Embrace your uniqueness."

NCReach is NC's program for foster kids. It's really an incredible program. Students must apply for all scholarships and Pell Grants but then based on the cost of the school, scholarships they receive, the program pays any balance and it covers all costs of attendance except any vehicle purchase. We have some who choose to live on campus and some who choose to commute and still live at the orphanage.
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Old 12-17-2018, 06:35 AM   #137
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When I first got into larger boats in the 90s, 36 feet was the norm with 42 feet considered large. Above 50 feet was considered suitable for paid crew.

When we returned to the United States in 2018 we spent time in a marina in Florida. Among the numerous Krogen owners at the marina we were the small boat. With the larger boats of today every aspect of the cost of boat ownership has increased faster than the increase in incomes. While cruising boats have never been a poor man's game costs have reached the point where it is expensive for professionals and moderately successful business owners.
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Old 12-17-2018, 02:14 PM   #138
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Even the word "owning" itself has a different meaning. Owning now means still making payments. Owning used to mean paid for.
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Old 12-17-2018, 05:32 PM   #139
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Thread(s) Monitoring

I don't understand this sites thread administration and monitoring, pls help! A monitor early on states replies off topics will be removed, then I read page after page of the posters not even mentioning boats any more, let alone boat ownership? So I take it staying on topic is not really necessary on this site??
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Old 12-17-2018, 06:16 PM   #140
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So true about the amount of boat $$ invested and sitting in marinas....and worse, not being maintained properly.

Millennials are changing the game (I have 3 of them), experiencing life early, while we GenXers and earlier decided to move from college to career with wife and kids and debt only to finally find ourselves 50 years old and then starting to experience life...which is GREAT by the way! Life on the water is AWESOME with no debt and plenty of money in the bank.
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