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Old 08-29-2018, 06:04 AM   #81
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Here lies the body of Michael O'Day
Who died maintaining his Right of Way
He was right, dead right, as he sailed along,
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong.

From a Power Squadron guide to the Rules.
I suspect the ditty is from a time past when more people had a stronger sense of self-preservation and less a sense of entitlement.
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Old 08-29-2018, 06:05 AM   #82
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I am surprised that in this lengthy thread, no one brought up a vessel not in command. The sailboat noticed the powerboat on a collision course a "long way off"....if the power boat continuted to come straight at the sailboat, did not respond to audible, visual, or vhf signaling, and collided with the sailboat, it seems pretty obvious there was no one in command of the powerboat. Obviously whoever was supposed to be in command of the powerboat is at fault, but I think the sailboater is also at fault for watching this situation develop and not taking corrective action. I would probably split blame 50/50 on this.

This is another area where snippets of the rules are often quoted out of context.


Not Under Command (NUC) is related to vessels that are broken, and hence not responsive to operator commands in some important way. Loss of power, broken steering gear, etc. would be examples. A captain not paying attention, asleep, or below in the head taking a dump do not count, and are themselves a violation of the requirement to always maintain an effective watch.


And like a vessel constrained by fishing gear, or constrained by draft, or of restricted maneuverability, the vessel needs to declare that status and show lights and/or day shapes to indicate.
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Old 08-29-2018, 06:21 AM   #83
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What is a good book to buy to educate myself on these rules? Pm me please


https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageNam...lesAmalgamated

And it's published in hardcopy paperback book format too.

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Old 08-29-2018, 06:23 AM   #84
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Does anyone have a cite on this. I have always thought the distinction was whether the motor was running and not whether the engine was in gear.

https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageNam...lgamated#rule3

See b and c.

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Old 08-29-2018, 06:37 AM   #85
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Here lies the body of Michael O'Day
Who died maintaining his Right of Way
He was right, dead right, as he sailed along,
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong.

From a Power Squadron guide to the Rules.
I suspect the ditty is from a time past when more people had a stronger sense of self-preservation and less a sense of entitlement.

I think it's for people who are steadfast in their resistance to learning the rules, and in particular, ALL the rules. Most tell you what to do so that approaching boats never get into a dangerous situation in the first place. That's the goal. But when you do get into a dangerous situation because someone isn't doing what they are supposed to, it's the responsibility of both captains to do everything possible to not collide. They even say what to do in a panic situation so that the two boats steer away from each other rather than into each other
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Old 08-29-2018, 06:49 AM   #86
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A prudent mariner steers his small boat away from any vessel that may be a stand on vessel or even just less manueverable......wayyyyy early if possible. The rules cover this. (Rules 2 & 8 as a minimum)

But there are many times when this is not possible and therefore the rules become much more specific and important. Rhymes and rules of thumb dont cut it...and arbitrary manuevering by non rule follwers just makes life less safe out there for the people trying to follow the rules.

Rhymes are learned by beginners to help them learn the basics........then as we grow towards higher levels of learning....we read the actual rules and regulations.

When I taught the basic boating class to kids and newbies....sure cute sayings abounded. When I taught captains licensing, we taught the book of Navrules and that test you needed a higher percentage to pass.

If Rhymes work so well, why doesnt the USCG use them?

Does every boater need to know all of them cold? No, but arguing that not needing them and just using Rhymes and rules of thumb is a little scary to me.
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Old 08-29-2018, 08:19 AM   #87
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A prudent mariner steers his small boat away from any vessel that may be a stand on vessel or even just less manueverable......wayyyyy early if possible. The rules cover this. (Rules 2 & 8 as a minimum)

But there are many times when this is not possible and therefore the rules become much more specific and important. Rhymes and rules of thumb dont cut it...and arbitrary manuevering by non rule follwers just makes life less safe out there for the people trying to follow the rules.

Rhymes are learned by beginners to help them learn the basics........then as we grow towards higher levels of learning....we read the actual rules and regulations.

When I taught the basic boating class to kids and newbies....sure cute sayings abounded. When I taught captains licensing, we taught the book of Navrules and that test you needed a higher percentage to pass.

If Rhymes work so well, why doesnt the USCG use them?

Does every boater need to know all of them cold? No, but arguing that not needing them and just using Rhymes and rules of thumb is a little scary to me.
Nothing wrong with rhymes and acronyms to remember things. It's used a lot in the aviation industry, even by the "old salt" senior captains. Whatever it take to get the job done. With the basic words and "book" learning you only remember about 10% of what you read..... so you need to go over it 10 times..... or use a cleaver acronym to remember it much easier.
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Old 08-29-2018, 08:28 AM   #88
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Nothing wrong with rhymes and acronyms to remember things. It's used a lot in the aviation industry, even by the "old salt" senior captains. Whatever it take to get the job done. With the basic words and "book" learning you only remember about 10% of what you read..... so you need to go over it 10 times..... or use a cleaver acronym to remember it much easier.
Yeah, yeah....learned all those as a BEGINNER pilot....and a BEGINNER captain....no I am not so stupid to not understand the diffetence in rhymes about gross tonnage for the Power Squadron and acronyms for a takeoff or landing checklist.

As I just posted earlier....the cutsie ones are useful in the beggining..... holding on to them and not progressing in one's learning curve....to me is scary.
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Old 08-29-2018, 08:42 AM   #89
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Hi


Both are guilty!




Both violated the rules of 5,6,7 and 8. The engine of the boat violated the obligation to avoid Rule 16. I am thinking of guilty of breaking 20% ​​sail 80% of a motorboat according to the aforementioned colores rule.


Here's a similar type of accident about a month ago. A little boat drove 90 from the left sea rays foward, at both speeds about 25 knots. The case is going to justice and the two leaders are accused. On a smaller boat, there were 2 adults and 1 child and 2 dogs.





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Old 08-29-2018, 09:54 AM   #90
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Kevin, that works with me except when a privileged sailboats changes course while required to maintain course as the privileged vessel (thus not overtaking the other vessel.)
This is where it gets sticky, to me at least, especially in a sailboat, and I don't see that part discussed anywhere near as much as the actions required of the give-way vessel. The stand-on vessel is required to maintain course and speed, presumably so the give-way vessel can predict it's movements and take evasive action early. At some point, if the give-way vessel doesn't appear to be taking evasive action, the stand-on vessel needs to do something, which can be confusing to the give-way vessel potentially. And if you wait long enough with no one taking any action, the stand-on vessel is required to take action, though if there's no wind, that's difficult in a sailboat. I've started the auxiliary in a hurry and high-tailed into a powered tack or jibe when it became apparent (to me at least) that the other vessel wasn't going to change course or speed. And it's difficult to know when sometimes.



Rule 17- Action by Stand-on Vessel (a)(i) Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way, the other shall keep her course and speed. (emphasis added)
(ii) The latter vessel may, however, take action to avoid collision by her maneuver alone, as soon as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel required to keep out of the way is not taking appropriate action in compliance with these Rules.
(b) When, from any cause, the vessel required to keep her course and speed finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, she shall take such action as will best aid to avoid collision.

The above is also described in many more words in Chapman's, though that does not carry the weight of law.


Edited to add: I suspect the reason for the change from 'burdened' and 'privileged' vessels to 'give-way' and 'stand-on' was to dispel the notion of 'right-of-way'.
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Old 08-29-2018, 10:08 AM   #91
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What is a good book to buy to educate myself on these rules? Pm me please
You have one of these, right?

https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/images/Navrules_lg.jpg
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Old 08-29-2018, 10:12 AM   #92
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So a little digression (not that there hasn't been plenty on this thread!).

If you are the stand-on vessel and you decided that the give-way vessel is not going to change course to avoid a meeting, you then either alter speed or course. The give-way boat, knowing he is give-way, also changes course at the the same - and a collision occurs.

Does the at-fault percentages for the stand-on vessel change?

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Old 08-29-2018, 10:56 AM   #93
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I am surprised that in this lengthy thread

Nobody else is
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Old 08-29-2018, 06:54 PM   #94
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Hard copies are usually on the shelf at West Marine for around $15.
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Old 08-29-2018, 07:20 PM   #95
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So a little digression (not that there hasn't been plenty on this thread!).

If you are the stand-on vessel and you decided that the give-way vessel is not going to change course to avoid a meeting, you then either alter speed or course. The give-way boat, knowing he is give-way, also changes course at the the same - and a collision occurs.

Does the at-fault percentages for the stand-on vessel change?

Good point. At some stage the give way/stand on rules, which are supposed to regulate conduct so boats know what they are to do and what to expect of others, suddenly flips to avoidance no matter what.
And that messes up the basic rules, no one knows what avoiding action others will take, and an avoid/avoid collision is very possible.

In that case I`d revert to "who created the avoidance need to start with". Answer: the give way boat.
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Old 08-29-2018, 07:33 PM   #96
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For emergency collision avoidance....its usually always both need turn to starboard, never turn in front of another vessel, make appropriate speed changes based on turn radius, advance and transfer......which are not usually a big deal with smaller vessels. I am pretty sure they become more pronounced with vessel size depending on design features.

This is assuming there was reasonable conditions and seamanship prior to the extremis situation.
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Old 08-29-2018, 07:39 PM   #97
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At some stage the give way/stand on rules, which are supposed to regulate conduct so boats know what they are to do and what to expect of others, suddenly flips to avoidance no matter what.
And that messes up the basic rules
...

But that IS one of the basic rules.
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Old 08-29-2018, 07:49 PM   #98
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For emergency collision avoidance....its usually always both need turn to starboard, never turn in front of another vessel, make appropriate speed changes based on turn radius, advance and transfer......which are not usually a big deal with smaller vessels. I am pretty sure they become more pronounced with vessel size dependinv on design features.

This is assuming there was reasonable conditions and seamanship prior to the extremis situation.


Turn to port, see you in court.
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Old 08-29-2018, 07:55 PM   #99
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Ths is hilarious.

With regards to sail boats under sail power vs recreatonal power boats....

There are very few instances where a recreational power boat has “stand on” privileges. Very few.

Perhaps when a boat under sail power overtakes a power boat, but that rarely happens...

Perhaps in a narrow channel, but in all my time seeing sail boats few tend to operater under sail in a narrow channel.

There are several perhapses, but the reality is that almost every interaction that actually happens between recreational power boats and sailboats under sail power, require the power boat to give way.
Visit the Clear Creek channel where it runs between Seabrook and Kemah, TX on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon.
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Old 08-29-2018, 07:58 PM   #100
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Rule 17 some what addresses when a give way vessel doesnt comply.

Not a lot of direction ....but it is addressed by leaving the best method to avoid the collision up to the captain with the caveat not to go to portif the vessel is over there in any way.
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