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Old 08-28-2018, 02:01 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Wxx3 View Post
The rules are quite simple:
Don't hit anyone or let yourself get hit

Much like driving a motorbike here in Vietnam
Have you been riding?
Its a wondrous thing how the traffic is like water there.
Thoroughly enjoyed my daily rides in Saigon,VungTau, Nha Trang , Danang, Hoian and Hue.
Can't wait to get back, hopefully on our boat one day, so many great times.
Where are you at?
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Old 08-28-2018, 05:47 AM   #42
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Geez guys

In this case with a recreational powerboat, and a sailboat under sail, the sailboat has the right of way.

But that's the point. In his example the sailboat was overtaking the power boat. The precedence list that most are familiar with is for crossing situations. When overtaking, the overtaking boat is the burdened vessel.
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Old 08-28-2018, 06:07 AM   #43
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Each rule is not in a vacuum.

Each rule covers circumstances that try and show how and why responsibilities change.

Common sense would say yes..but not in a vacuum like some trying to bleed one rule into another.

Large ships are not by nature unmanueverable, neither are tugs and tows. Until in certain situations which the rules cover.

Sailboats by nature aren't limited in their ability to manuever either...but yes certain situation they are less so than many power vessels. Heck, even with using the motor for propulsion their SAFE manuevering is in question sometimes....and thats one case where the rules aren't perfect.

All these partial understandings of the rules ultimately leads to misguided interpretations of specific rules...but overall, if you act like a "prudent seaman" you are following rule #2 which is a catch all rule for trying to avoid collisions, you might just get away avoiding collisions/on the water arguments your whole boating life.
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Old 08-28-2018, 06:19 AM   #44
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A recreational fishing boat has NO rites of way.....
A commercial fishing boat showing a basket or proper lights is RAM.

I have to disagree with this. There is no distinction at all, anywhere in the Colregs (I just searched for the word "commercial") between commercial and recreational boats for any of the rules (one exceptions that follows below). The fishing issue is exactly as stated in the rule. It's fishing gear that restricts maneuverability. In practice, it's only a bigger, commercial vessel that will have such gear, but the rule is about big restrictive gear, not about commercial vs recreational. Poles with lines out do not restrict your maneuverability sufficiently to qualify. And as stated, anyone claiming privilege under the fishing rule needs to be showing shapes and/or lights. But it has nothing to do with being commercial, and saying it does only perpetuates misunderstanding of the rules.


The one distinction for commercial vessels, and i have to admit I didn't know it or had forgotten, is that to qualify as a "Towing Vessel" under the rules you need to be towing commercially. So if I'm towing a friend home, I don't have privilege. I didn't know that.
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Old 08-28-2018, 06:43 AM   #45
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The distinction I believe is whether the vessel (private or commercial) flies the lights or dayshapes or radio calls to make that distinction.

Even towing, I did not see anything in my USCG copy of the rules that says "commercial towing".... just "a vessel towing shall...."

TT, where is "commercial" mentioned in towing?

Plus, a towing vessel is just a power vessel UNLESS it declares itself RAM by radio, lights and/or dayshapes
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Old 08-28-2018, 06:52 AM   #46
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But that's the point. In his example the sailboat was overtaking the power boat. The precedence list that most are familiar with is for crossing situations. When overtaking, the overtaking boat is the burdened vessel.
I’m having a hard time visualizing that.

It looks to me like the sail boat crossed in front of the power boat, who apears to have hit the sail boat at a high enough rate of speed to climb up on the sail boat.

Based on the power boat climbing up on the sail boat I would venture to guess that the power boat was up on plane, a speed pretty difficult to overtake by a sail boat.

Perhaps there is more than I am seeing... but the photo does not seem to support a theory that the sail boat was overtaking the power boat.

This looks like a broadside collission to me.
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Old 08-28-2018, 07:16 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Each rule is not in a vacuum.

Each rule covers circumstances that try and show how and why responsibilities change.

Common sense would say yes..but not in a vacuum like some trying to bleed one rule into another.

Large ships are not by nature unmanueverable, neither are tugs and tows. Until in certain situations which the rules cover.

Sailboats by nature aren't limited in their ability to manuever either...but yes certain situation they are less so than many power vessels. Heck, even with using the motor for propulsion their SAFE manuevering is in question sometimes....and thats one case where the rules aren't perfect.

All these partial understandings of the rules ultimately leads to misguided interpretations of specific rules...but overall, if you act like a "prudent seaman" you are following rule #2 which is a catch all rule for trying to avoid collisions, you might just get away avoiding collisions/on the water arguments your whole boating life.
So you are now hedging your absolute bet on the sailboat under sail to win in a collision over a container ship in a marked channel. That's more like it.
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Old 08-28-2018, 07:31 AM   #48
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A sailboat under sail power always has the right of way.
No it does not! I suggest you study a copy of the COLREGS.
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Old 08-28-2018, 07:54 AM   #49
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I do everything I can to avoid a collision if I physically can and even if that means damage to my boat. It does help to predict the actions of other boaters to have conversations like this though.

6' rowboat to 600' cruise ship.. I'm not enforcing right of way to their or my own peril.

It seems obvious but many boaters try to "teach" others while under way.
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Old 08-28-2018, 07:57 AM   #50
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Can we at least agree on one thing here? Nobody in this situation has "right of way." There is no "right of way" here. There is only "stand-on," and "give-way."


I know some people think that is pedantic nit-picking. It is not. It denotes an important difference between the COLREGS and the "right of way" laws that we are all familiar with from driving.


Another thing I would hope we can all agree on is that it is the responsibility of EVERY vessel operator out there to avoid collisions. That means that, no matter what the exact circumstances were, it is almost certain that BOTH vessels will be assigned at least some portion of the blame in this case. When both vessels are underway, it is practically unheard of for a collision investigation to end with the conclusion that only one of the vessels bears all of the blame.
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Old 08-28-2018, 08:17 AM   #51
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No it does not! I suggest you study a copy of the COLREGS.
I would refer you to rule 18-A-IV

In this case with a sail boat and a power boat, the sail boat under sail will generally have the right of way.

RULE 18 Responsibilities Between Vessels
Except where Rules 9, 10 and 13 otherwise require:
(a) A power-driven vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:
(i) a vessel not under command;
(ii) a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver; (iii) a vessel engaged in fishing;
(iv) a sailing vessel.


The reasons are simple, and all it takes is seeing sail boats under sail to see the logic. Sail boats under sail are not as manuverable as a power boat of the same tonnage class.

In this case you have a highly manuverable, high speed power boat that ran over a sail boat under sail.

The picture tells a thousand words.
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Old 08-28-2018, 09:29 AM   #52
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But that's the point. In his example the sailboat was overtaking the power boat. The precedence list that most are familiar with is for crossing situations. When overtaking, the overtaking boat is the burdened vessel.
Here is the Colreg for overtaking:


"(b) A vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up
with another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees
abaft her beam, that is, in such a position with reference to the
vessel she is overtaking, that at night she would be able to see
only the stern light of that vessel but neither of her sidelights."


Overtaking does not mean coming up to another vessel from the side. It means coming from behind (if you can see the other boat's stern light then you are in the overtaking zone). If forward of that you are on a crossing course, not an overtaking course.



From the picture, the sailboat was clearly on a crossing course.


Here is a link to a free copy of the Colregs (PDF version) online:
https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navrules/navrules.pdf
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Old 08-28-2018, 09:36 AM   #53
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The arguement was expanded beyond just the collision in the article.

Some people made incorrect statements because they were referring to either just one scenario or one rule.Thus corrections were posted whether germane to the OP or not....I think that's some where some confusion is coming from.

Scratch...no not hedging the bet, a containership in a narrow channel might have stand on priveledges to sail under 65 feet, but not because he is commercial as you emphasized in post 8.

You were loosely tossing around concepts such as law of tonnage (a novice statement post #18) instead of rules...I have no idea how well you know them, but your early posts and jagon would suggest not. You may get there through some reasoning, but not from actually knowing the rules
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Old 08-28-2018, 11:32 AM   #54
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The arguement was expanded beyond just the collision in the article.

Some people made incorrect statements because they were referring to either just one scenario or one rule.Thus corrections were posted whether germane to the OP or not....I think that's some where some confusion is coming from.

Scratch...no not hedging the bet, a containership in a narrow channel might have stand on priveledges to sail under 65 feet, but not because he is commercial as you emphasized in post 8.

You were loosely tossing around concepts such as law of tonnage (a novice statement post #18) instead of rules...I have no idea how well you know them, but your early posts and jagon would suggest not. You may get there through some reasoning, but not from actually knowing the rules
Moving the goal post again I see,,,,,, You are welcome to feel that you are “absolutely right”, even as you backtracked in this post. Yes I lumped the commercial container ship with the broader pictures dealing with commercial vessels coupled with navigating in a shipping channel to boot in my original response on this thread. But it does play a role in the rules of the road.

You do not know my experience and quite possibly know a lot of others experiences here. But thankfully I am a bit more pragmatic from actually working the waters. And for that I am thankful that I do not have a bullheaded position that’s etched in stone that now changes in less than 24 hours. As you backslap as being right and everyone else is wrong, I am moving right along..got more pressing things to do today.
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Old 08-28-2018, 11:38 AM   #55
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Ignorance of the Colregs is not uncommon among boaters. I sense danger out there!
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Old 08-28-2018, 11:50 AM   #56
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When underway, I consider all sailboats are named, "Oblivious."
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Old 08-28-2018, 11:57 AM   #57
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Moving the goal post again I see,,,,,, You are welcome to feel that you are “absolutely right”, even as you backtracked in this post. Yes I lumped the commercial container ship with the broader pictures dealing with commercial vessels coupled with navigating in a shipping channel to boot in my original response on this thread. But it does play a role in the rules of the road.

You do not know my experience and quite possibly know a lot of others experiences here. But thankfully I am a bit more pragmatic from actually working the waters. And for that I am thankful that I do not have a bullheaded position that’s etched in stone that now changes in less than 24 hours. As you backslap as being right and everyone else is wrong, I am moving right along..got more pressing things to do today.
Like reading and fully understanding the rules...
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Old 08-28-2018, 01:31 PM   #58
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+1 for not using the term “right of way” incorrectly. It’s a philosophy and no mistake that the rules talk about “burdens” and not right. You have no right to blindly do some thing, instead you are “burdened” with extra responsibilities over and above the most very basic burden to avoid collision at all times. If the sailboat saw the danger and failed to take action while exercising a non-existent right, they are at fault as well. If you are involved in a collision, very little chance that you did everything you could have and not be partially responsible. Feeling that you had some kind of right to continue doing something is the first sin in avoiding a collision.

On a more personal note:
I’ve noted so many times how so many sailboats will maintain a predictable course right up to the point when they become aware of a powerboat in the vicinity, when suddenly they come up with reasons that gravitate inevitably towards the nearest powerboat. I have a hypothesis that there is some kind of measurable bias going on here in the sailboat community. Since I work with very large telemetry streams in my day job, I’ve been looking with a keen interest in capturing Real life AIS data and correlating existing wind directions to mathematically indicate likely vessels that are motoring based on wind speed, direction and vessel length. I believe I can measure the rate and bias of course changes based of vessel proximity.

I have a bit of work to do and as a hobby this won’t be something quick, but over time I think there is a strong chance I can model this. If the model works, eventually we would expect to see a collision, fully documented on AIS and fully measure the bias to establish a course of collision, instead of avoidance, and indicate the likelihood of being a powerboat under the law to boot.

I work in gaming telemetry and building these kinds of models helps us understand the intent of players in ways that we can not always measure by simply asking. Not everything ultimately works, but it’s fun to think about it in more objective terms.
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Old 08-28-2018, 02:54 PM   #59
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All this talk about the "tonnage rule" and avoiding collisions, reminded me of the old standby text book.

Please go to Amazon.com and read the reviews of this book. Trust me, you'll be delighted.



https://www.amazon.com/Avoid-Huge-Sh...ustomerReviews
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Old 08-28-2018, 03:40 PM   #60
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The distinction I believe is whether the vessel (private or commercial) flies the lights or dayshapes or radio calls to make that distinction.

Even towing, I did not see anything in my USCG copy of the rules that says "commercial towing".... just "a vessel towing shall...."

TT, where is "commercial" mentioned in towing?

Plus, a towing vessel is just a power vessel UNLESS it declares itself RAM by radio, lights and/or dayshapes

It's in the definition of a Towing Vessel, Par 26:02, page 215. I see I'm not alone is missing it......
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