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Old 01-13-2018, 01:42 PM   #21
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By far, the biggest generator of electricity in South Australia is rooftop solar. This is is owned by individual homeowners and businesses, and now accounts for 48% of south Australia power generation.

Again, from someone who doesn’t know anything about power production, I have always felt that large scale solar farms aren’t likely to be terribly efficient, but I think point production, at the home or business level, may work really well in some areas.
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Old 01-13-2018, 02:04 PM   #22
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I know nothing when it comes to propulsion, but isn’t one of the advantages of a diesel/electric system is the high torque available in an electric engine? I would think that would be one reason the railroads use them. For our boats, torque really isn’t much of an issue.
High torque or low they can lose the diesel part and power the electric traction motors with battery and solar when the $$ and technology are reasonable. They could have battery RR cars that are changed out at regular stops, but at this time diesel electric is the best cost solution. My point is that we are getting closer all the time but not quite there yet.
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Old 01-13-2018, 02:14 PM   #23
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The power generation landscape is changing rapidly. The state of South Australia was almost completely dependent on coal fired power stations 20 years ago. They are now all shut down. It is unlikely there will ever be another coal fired power station built in the state.

There are now 17 wind farms with a total capacity of 1789 MW. Another 26 wind farms are under construction or on the drawing board. This will increase the generation capacity by another 2554 MW.

The total capacity of gas fired generation is 2027 MW.

There is currently only one major solar power station operating with a capacity of 100 MW.

By far, the biggest generator of electricity in South Australia is rooftop solar. This is is owned by individual homeowners and businesses, and now accounts for 48% of south Australia power generation.

Is it all a fad? It's not looking that way. Perhaps fossils fuels were a fad, and they've now gone out of style.
Sounds like a good plan. I note a gas (fossil fuel) fired power plant is part of the battery storage development. With SA gas fields it should work well. The question as always is - will the rates and government ownership be good enough to attract and keep the big commercial enterprises?
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Old 01-13-2018, 02:38 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Pura Vida View Post
High torque or low they can lose the diesel part and power the electric traction motors with battery and solar when the $$ and technology are reasonable. They could have battery RR cars that are changed out at regular stops, but at this time diesel electric is the best cost solution. My point is that we are getting closer all the time but not quite there yet.
I don't think there is any chance to see this happening in my lifetime.

L
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Old 01-13-2018, 03:12 PM   #25
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Duffy makes a few different models of electric boat. While nice, they are expensive and limited to a few specific applications. They are not a boat that you would cruise fro A to B unless A and B are just across the harbor.

There are some boats that claim to be hybrids and "green". Don't know how they compare to regular propulsion systems.
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Old 01-13-2018, 05:32 PM   #26
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These folks beat Tesla to that finish line. Just as well since Tesla does not seem able to get its car production on any published schedule. I've seen a few of these in Annapolis.

https://www.greenlinehybrid.si/
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Old 01-13-2018, 09:15 PM   #27
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Rooftop private solar in Australia is not restricted to South Australia, it is common elsewhere too. The issue is usually economic, how long will it take to repay the cost of the installation by power bill savings. Others may install for non financial related reasons. There is now a move to supplement systems with batteries too, but it is expensive to acquire enough capacity.
I suspect battery storage will work in individual systems, but may not work in commercial providers. We will see how the South Australian Tesla experiment works.
I know not all will agree, but baseload power cannot come reliably from non fossil fuels. There is an attempt to "paint coal as black" (in a way not difficult to do) and as something which must remain in the ground, but when the sun don`t shine and wind don`t blow or blows too much, fossil fuel generation is all we have, apart from some hydro. Strangely, we now have industry installing back up diesel generators to provide power when the grid fails or scarcity forces prices sky high, to me that says we are not providing a certain supply, largely imo due to a philosophical move to renewables,despite having as much if not more fuel to generate supply than anywhere else in the world.
I think the best way the world can limit emissions is by limiting population, but that`s a whole other discussion.
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Old 01-13-2018, 11:06 PM   #28
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You are right Bruce. Solar and wind need something to back it up. Coal is one option but it is a very poor option with a lot of powerful lobbyists. A new coal fired power station cannot compete with wind and solar power Without big subsidies.

The Tesla battery is a start but much more stored power is required. Stored hydro is a better option. Hydrogen produced from excess wind & solar is also a clean and cost effective solution.
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Old 01-14-2018, 01:55 AM   #29
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Sounds like a good plan. I note a gas (fossil fuel) fired power plant is part of the battery storage development. With SA gas fields it should work well. The question as always is - will the rates and government ownership be good enough to attract and keep the big commercial enterprises?
There is a major gas shortage in South Australia and the Eastern States, due to over-commitment of long term LNG sales to China, and and less than expected results in coal seam methane production. This has caused the price of natural gas to triple in the last two years. Politicians and oil companies are blaming it on the anti-frac crowd for not allowing fracking in parts of the country, but its due to a much lower gas production than expected in areas where fracking is allowed.


btw - I may sound like an anti oil industry greenie, but I've worked in oil & gas exploration and production for 40 years.
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Old 01-14-2018, 05:23 AM   #30
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"My point is that we are getting closer all the time but not quite there yet."

Electric boats & cars will be acceptable to the public when the weight and energy of the battery pack is similar to the energy in that weight of diesel fuel..

And can be refilled with the same speed as a gas or diesel fuel tank.
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Old 01-14-2018, 06:56 AM   #31
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There is a major gas shortage in South Australia and the Eastern States, due to over-commitment of long term LNG sales to China, and and less than expected results in coal seam methane production.

btw - I may sound like an anti oil industry greenie, but I've worked in oil & gas exploration and production for 40 years.
North America is awash in natural gas. Prices are ridiculously low with many wells shut in. The ability to move LNG offshore is dependent upon long term contracts and LNG terminals on the Canadian and US west coasts. Alaska has been looking for locales that would enter into long term contracts to justify LNG shipments.

World politics and fanciful thoughts on non fossil fuel power generation are creating some area power shortages. Sounds like SA is one. China and Russia are feverishly working on gas lines to take excess Russian gas production into China. LNG shipments may well be short term because of this. China wants more gas to offset coal generation, especially from their plentiful brown coal mines.

Business expansion relies upon long term power commitments by suppliers. Without a viable plan B, SA will be in for an interesting ride. Hopefully transmission lines from elsewhere in Australia are in good shape. The grid is essential.

Glad to hear you're more than an arm waver Gaston.
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Old 01-14-2018, 08:02 AM   #32
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"The grid is essential."

The newest tech may be a very high voltage DC line buried , rather than more strung wires.

Tesla vs Edison the AC - DC controversy still goes on a century later!
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Old 01-14-2018, 08:59 AM   #33
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An electric trawler is possible now. You could quite easily build one using existing tech that could cruise for 12 hours at trawler speeds. However, I see several major downsides. First is the obvious one - cost. The hundred+ kilowatts of battery capacity required for a 35 footer would cost $50K-$100K. Second, the batteries would occupy significant space in the boat. Finally, the infrastructure for recharging large battery banks in a reasonable amount of time doesn't exist.
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Old 01-14-2018, 09:31 AM   #34
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Where is the electric power coming from to charge the battery packs? could it be fron fossil fuel powered electric plants?
Did you read the article before you commented ?

It says right in the article:

.The containers are charged onshore by carbon-free energy provider Eneco, which sources solar power, windmills and renewables.”

I don't understand why this is such a controversial topic here. OK....so its not for everyone.....maybe its not for you...but the knee-jerk resistance and repetitive, mantra-like protestations that it will never work....despite steady progress being made, is almost funny.
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Old 01-14-2018, 11:12 AM   #35
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only slightly off topic, but for any folks in the South Puget Sound area, you may have seen an all electric boat. A fellow converted his 26?' old wood Owens to all electric and you'll see him all over the place in the warmer months. Boat is easy to recognize because a lot of the painted surface is purple ( a big Washington Husky fan).
He converted it himself several years ago and repowered it with a new to him electric motor 3-4 years back. I have forgotten the details, but he has a large battery bank and runs some type of big electric motor. He says he cruises at hull speed and can go a day or more. Since he did all the work himself, he's fun to talk with and eager to tell his experiences. although not for me, I'll give him an A for effort.
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Old 01-14-2018, 11:32 AM   #36
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Did you read the article before you commented ?

It says right in the article:

.The containers are charged onshore by carbon-free energy provider Eneco, which sources solar power, windmills and renewables.”

.
Got it. Non fossil fuel charging occurs when the wind is blowing hard and it is daylight. Otherwise power from the grid or onboard IC engine kicks in. That makes sense to me and seems to have been the popular route for the past 120 years of electric motor driven boats.
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Old 01-14-2018, 12:01 PM   #37
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I think that the reason that renewable power sources are not in higher usage is because it would be upsetting the rice bowl of the fossil fuel providers. These high dollar contributors to the elected officials keep the lid on up and coming competitors.
I live in an area that requires a special (costly) permit to install renewable power source in my home.
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Old 01-14-2018, 01:30 PM   #38
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Where will all the additional electric generation come from when electric vehicles/vessels become de rigeuer? Current generation barely meets demand now.
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Old 01-14-2018, 01:51 PM   #39
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current generation barely meets demand now....at peak times. During the overnight hours there is a lot of un-used capacity. This is why many utilities are moving to time of use rates, and many appliances are able to be set to run at a later time.
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Old 01-15-2018, 12:10 AM   #40
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I know nothing when it comes to propulsion, but isn’t one of the advantages of a diesel/electric system is the high torque available in an electric engine? I would think that would be one reason the railroads use them. For our boats, torque really isn’t much of an issue.
Exactly.
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