When Does it Become Cost Prohibited?

[Portage_Bay]

Where can I find those commercial docks in the PNW? Could you direct me to one of them where you had good experience?
My boat can take 1600 gallons (soon around 2000 gallons with the custom bladders I’ve ordered), so any penny can make a difference.

Covich Williams or Ballard Oil just inside the locks.

 

[BruceK]

I quoted diesel prices in Malaysia
You quoted diesel prices in NSW
Others are quoting diesel prices from all over

Your point is?

I seem to recall fuel prices are Govt. fixed in Malaysia. Whereas in Australia, they are arrived at by supply, demand, and chicanery.

 

[Kit_L]

@Simi; ah; I see. We do in fact source 98 RON petrol from Singapore, from memory; I thought you were pointing to some process (like government taxes) between Malaysia/Singapore and here. Sorry.

 

[Nocanvas]

It will hit unevenly. My Willard 36, even with an ancient Perkins 4.236, gets around 4.5-5.0 nm per gal and wouldn't do 8-kts if I had a pair of Pratt & Whitney's strapped to her decks. So there is a practical limit. Honestly, there isn't a fuel price that would keep me from using her. But for boats that slurp even 10 gph, sales will be hindered when people think "Gee, that's $50-$60 per hour!!! Or $300-$400 per day!!!"

TF has a core of die-hard enthusiasts that will figure out a way to use their boats. But for folks at the margin, I'm sure the impact is already felt. I'd love to hear from brokers about what they're seeing in the market right now. I'd bet their phones have slowed a bit....

Peter

I second that thoughts

 

[Capt. Carman]

At the risk of repeating myself from another thread:

While you can choose to sit out a year, your internal clock still keeps ticking. If you sit out this years and it turns out to be the last year of your boating life, how will you feel? How many more boating years do you think you have? When lying on your death bed, will you view sitting out this summer as a good choice or exceptionally short sighted?

Ted

This is the other reality. Excellent comment and the absolute truth.

 

[NEtrawler58]

I'm just guessing here, but is the main difference in fuel prices by location simply a matter of taxes? I know that is often true in the US from state to state, but is that also what accounts for the price differences internationally? If so, I wonder how people feel about that and how it compares to their overall tax spend and the rationale behind it.

 

[rslifkin]

I'm just guessing here, but is the main difference in fuel prices by location simply a matter of taxes? I know that is often true in the US from state to state, but is that also what accounts for the price differences internationally? If so, I wonder how people feel about that and how it compares to their overall tax spend and the rationale behind it.

Some of it is taxes, some is cost of land or rent for a gas station or fuel dock, some is cost of getting the fuel to the pump (depends on distance from refineries), and some is the rest of the operating costs of the place you're buying fuel from.

The places that can sell a ton of fuel will tend to be cheaper, as they're spreading the location and employee costs, etc. over more gallons. Those places may also be able to get slightly better pricing on the fuel they're buying due to quantity.

 

[NEtrawler58]

Some of it is taxes, some is cost of land or rent for a gas station or fuel dock, some is cost of getting the fuel to the pump (depends on distance from refineries), and some is the rest of the operating costs of the place you're buying fuel from.

The places that can sell a ton of fuel will tend to be cheaper, as they're spreading the location and employee costs, etc. over more gallons. Those places may also be able to get slightly better pricing on the fuel they're buying due to quantity.

I get all that. I meant that in some countries fuel may be 3X what we pay in the US. My guess is that is largely due to taxes and I wonder if people generally accept that and agree with it.

 

[Hippocampus]

Countries that produce more fuel than they consume tend to have lower price at the pump. Also those near the producers. So Mexico, Venezuela (before current upheaval), US, Russia (before Putin) etc. The confounders are ability to process and deliver, political stability, corruption and such. So yes taxes do have a significant impact on final cost but so does other factors. Think about the bump in costs after a Gulf coast hurricane interrupting processing. Or the dramatic rise of marine diesel costs in Trinidad and Grenada when Venezuela went upside down.

 

[ScottC]

In Sweden, ~40% of the diesel price is tax and ~60% of the gasoline price is tax. Further to that, the tax, itself, is tied to Inflation/CPI, regardless of what actual fuel supply costs are doing. I'm not clear on what all the tax collected is used for. I know a LOT of it goes toward environment-related items (which may include electric vehicle purchase subsidies...which are pretty attractive right now).

 

[chivyw]

The big question is how do we go as a country from being a net exporter of oil to $5 to $6 a gallon for diesel fuel and trying to make deals with our enemies to get supply. I used 1600 gallons from Maryland to Florida last fall. Now I want to get back to Md and fuel is at least $2 more a gallon.

 

[Hippocampus]

We’re involved in economic, cyber and proxy war with Putin. The rest follows.

 

[NEtrawler58]

The big question is how do we go as a country from being a net exporter of oil to $5 to $6 a gallon for diesel fuel and trying to make deals with our enemies to get supply. I used 1600 gallons from Maryland to Florida last fall. Now I want to get back to Md and fuel is at least $2 more a gallon.

It's not that complicated as to why, but we can't discuss that here.

 

[SteveK]

It's not that complicated as to why, but we can't discuss that here.

Sure we can. It is supply and demand. locally you are forced to pay what the product can be sold at a distance.

Here in BC we have abundance of hydro and natural gas. BUT as long as California wants it we must pay for it at the rate they are prepared to pay. We have a surplus at any price.

Shareholder profits can be increased by reducing supply, increasing demand at a higher price. Follow the money.

 

[bowball]

The big question is how do we go as a country from being a net exporter of oil to $5 to $6 a gallon for diesel fuel and trying to make deals with our enemies to get supply. I used 1600 gallons from Maryland to Florida last fall. Now I want to get back to Md and fuel is at least $2 more a gallon.

Long term trends. We’ve always been a petroleum importer. Russian oil imports accounted for very little of that but since Russia invaded Ukraine, the West has started to limit purchases of Russian oil to stop funding their war efforts. Since oil is a global commodity and can easily be shipped it has a global price. Our banning Russian oil is more symbolic and doesn’t affect the price but other countries do and hence affects our price.

Our net export status started long ago, as long term trends.

The top five sources of U.S. crude oil imports by share of total crude oil imports in 2020 were
Canada. 61%
Mexico. 11%
Saudi Arabia. 8%
Colombia. 4%
Iraq. 3%

The decrease import trend started in 2005, continuously.

It’s also a bit misleading unless you dig into the various categories. And remember we import petroleum products, refine and then export them both counting . So business decisions matter. Another oddity that affects the statistics: “ Because of logistical, regulatory, and quality considerations, exporting some petroleum is the most economical way to meet the market's needs. For example, refiners in the U.S. Gulf Coast region frequently find that it makes economic sense to export some of their gasoline to Mexico rather than shipping it to the U.S. East Coast because lower cost gasoline imports from Europe may be available to the East Coast.”

So it’s a complicated economic decision. And the trends started in the 1990’s.

However, the economic decrease started by Covid and the unemployment and lack of travel, caused our usage of petroleum to decrease, lowering the prices to what we saw in 2020. As the economy strongly recovered, petroleum consumption, imports and prices went back up.

 

[CharlieO.]

It becomes cost prohibitive when I am out of dollars and the kids drop me off at the nursing home.

 

[NEtrawler58]

Sure we can. It is supply and demand. locally you are forced to pay what the product can be sold at a distance.

Here in BC we have abundance of hydro and natural gas. BUT as long as California wants it we must pay for it at the rate they are prepared to pay. We have a surplus at any price.

Shareholder profits can be increased by reducing supply, increasing demand at a higher price. Follow the money.

Respectfully, I think the question is how the US went from being a net exporter and the largest energy producer in the world a few years ago, to now an importer relying on other countries (some not friendly) to supply us with oil. We were still buying Russian oil after the invasion started and hesitated to even cut that off.

 

[SteveK]

Respectfully, I think the question is how the US went from being a net exporter and the largest energy producer in the world a few years ago, to now an importer relying on other countries (some not friendly) to supply us with oil. We were still buying Russian oil after the invasion started and hesitated to even cut that off.

No worries. A supply tap cannot be shut off suddenly. A new source has to be stated first.
Uncap the domestic wells and your foreign supply chain can be turned off.

Bowbal showed Canada supplying 61% crude. We have the crude to supply, but we do not have the facilities to process, so we import the finished product.

 

[KnotYet]

Sure we can. It is supply and demand. locally you are forced to pay what the product can be sold at a distance.

Here in BC we have abundance of hydro and natural gas. BUT as long as California wants it we must pay for it at the rate they are prepared to pay. We have a surplus at any price.

Shareholder profits can be increased by reducing supply, increasing demand at a higher price. Follow the money.

You're welcome.

 

[SteveK]

You're welcome.

Not at all, Thank You California for being willing to pay more than you have to pay and thus shoring up our economy. We have abundant supply, keep buying.

 

[KnotYet]

Not at all, Thank You California for being willing to pay more than you have to pay and thus shoring up our economy. We have abundant supply, keep buying.

The way forward is to utilize renewable energy to greatest degree possible.

 

[BandB]

I get all that. I meant that in some countries fuel may be 3X what we pay in the US. My guess is that is largely due to taxes and I wonder if people generally accept that and agree with it.

No, it's largely due to the fact the US produces fuel and other countries may not.

 

[slowgoesit]

Covich Williams or Ballard Oil just inside the locks.

Yesterday, Ballard Oil was $4.79/gallon for from 750 to 2000 gallons. . . . Brownsville was $4.73/gal, no minimum amount required. And Brownsville is closer to Ironsides! So goes the myth of cheaper at commercial dock . ..

 

[slowgoesit]

Respectfully, I think the question is how the US went from being a net exporter and the largest energy producer in the world a few years ago, to now an importer relying on other countries (some not friendly) to supply us with oil. We were still buying Russian oil after the invasion started and hesitated to even cut that off.

Actually, the question the OP asked was "When is it just to expensive to go cruise?"

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Actually, the question the OP asked was "When is it just to expensive to go cruise?"

Correct. No politics please.

 

[Clivepc]

When is it too costly?

As others have said, fuel may be up (By the way I was spending 9 dollars per gallon for fuel in the UK 20 years ago! In sterling of course) but your life is dwindling no matter what you do.
Once it gets to a point where you can't even finance it, you'll need to quit, until then, it's about choosing where you want to spend your money, what is the most important to you?
Figure the average guy lives up to his late 70's in the US, understand that the last 5-10 years may be in poor health, how many seasons do you have left? My best friend got bacterial meningitis 2 years ago and now can't talk or dress himself (63) My cousin died last week, his funeral is tomorrow in Manchester England, (58) Mortality is way more sobering to me than fuel costs.
TBW.

 

[klee wyck]

The below is interesting to me:
My first trip to the Sea of Cortez in Mexico this year was early November which is now five months ago. I left there last week.
As far as I can tell, the price of fuel has not changed during that period. Not a penny.....
What is with that?

 

[AusCan]

I look at the cost of diesel fuel a bit differently.

I am always amazed at how inexpensive fuel (gasoline, diesel, petrol) is, once you consider it has taken hundreds of millions of years to produce the raw product.
Then it has to be extracted from up to 10,000 feet under the ground. Then it is shipped around the world, and refined in a 200 million dollar refinery, then delivered to your local neighborhood.

People complain about paying $5/gallon for it, when they pay more for a bottle of water.

We've had it for too cheap too long.

 

[O C Diver]

The below is interesting to me:
My first trip to the Sea of Cortez in Mexico this year was early November which is now five months ago. I left there last week.
As far as I can tell, the price of fuel has not changed during that period. Not a penny.....
What is with that?

The Mexican government controls the retail price of fuel and Mexico is an exporter. An increase in the price of gas and diesel would probably have a much greater impact on the Mexican economy. Better for Mexico to take advantage of the increase in the exported cost of crude oil.

Ted

 

[mvweebles]

The Mexican government controls the retail price of fuel and Mexico is an exporter. An increase in the price of gas and diesel would probably have a much greater impact on the Mexican economy. Better for Mexico to take advantage of the increase in the exported cost of crude oil.



Ted

There have been changes to Mexico’s oil industry. Under AMLO, President since 2018, much of the retail downstream sector has been opened to foreign investment. Pemex stations are relatively rare, but having been displaced by hundreds of BP, Conoco, Tesoro, and other stations. Mexico does control midstream and now upstream (refinery) operations with a new refinery in Tabasco. Historically, countries that produced oil were unable to refine it which was the case of Pemex.

Interestingly, the Jones Act is getting a lot of discussion right now. The USs major refining center is the Gulf Coast. The most economical way to get refined products such as gasoline to New England is by ship, however the Jones Act prevents a foreign flagged ship from doing so. So many refined products for the East Coast were imported from places like Trinidad with Venezuelan ties, and of course Russia. It's a complicated web that defies easy talking points about "US needs to be energy independent." There are more issues than a mass-balance of oil on ground compared to consumption.

AMLOs presidency is a mixed bag. He campaigned as a "peoples president" a friend of the poor. His party lost seats in the 2021 midterm elections. I suspect gas prices are suppressed to avoid blowback. Not really a subsidy, but the government is accepting less money per bbl of oil than the open market would grant.

In Ensenada, gas prices have risen about 5% over the last 3-weeks or so to around $4/gal depending on currency exchange rates. When I first started coming to Baja 30 years ago, gas was slightly cheaper than US but diesel was heavily discounted. That is no longer the case. Diesel price is about 5% higher than regular gas.

Peter