What's up with YachtWorld? $$

[Prairie Salt]

Looking at boats in the 100K range.

As I've researched a few different brands over the last few months it seems a high % of boats on Yachtworld are priced higher than what I find of Facebook Market place, Search Tempest, Kijiji, broker sights...etc....

Opinions?

 

[slowgoesit]

All of the boats advertised on YW are represented by brokers. Most, if not all, of the boats advertised on Marketplace are for sale by the actual owners.

The brokers can ask what they want, but the seller will be paying the broker's fee (generally 10%) out of the funds that the buyer brings to the table . . .

Ask for the moon! Who knows, some poor smuck may come along and pay it.

The real story is how long boats are remaining on YW now, vs at the height of the selling spree. The prices asked on YW assume that the high prices of 18 months ago are the new norm, but the time they spend without selling is telling a different story.

 

[Nick14]

Ask for the moon! Who knows, some poor smuck may come along and pay it.

I've always been amused by the 'ask for the moon' pricing strategy. Some brokers in particular seem to embrace it. While in theory on the surface it sounds like it would be a way to get the highest price possible (thereby both getting the seller as much as possible, and the broker the highest possible commission), I don't know if it really works all that well in anything but an insane seller's market.

There's a broker in New England (who will remain nameless) who I've talked with many times over the past >20 years. Very polite, courteous, responsive, knowledgeable, and well-known locally. Their approach has always been ask an absolutely b@tsh!t insane crazy price to start, and then very slowly, lower the price over a long period of time, and be relatively firm at each price point. Kind of like a 'Dutch Auction.'

I've talked with them about it a few times, and their response is, 'you can always lower the price, but it's hard to raise it.' Fair enough. But their approach often seems counter-productive, and has turned me off to dealing with them.

Just one example, there was a boat they had listed a long time ago, for $399k. I thought it was worth low $300's, and offered $325k. I was laughed at and told 'even $375k probably wouldn't buy the boat.'

That boat was listed on yachtworld for six (6) years. The last price I saw it listed at was $249k, and I understand it finally sold for $225k - $100k less than I offered, six years before.

Another boat they had listed for $895k. I saw the boat at a local boat show. It was beautiful and pretty much exactly what I wanted. Again I thought it was way overpriced. I thought it was worth low $500's, and said I would be willing to offer $525k, maybe as much as $550k if they twisted my arm.

Again I was laughed at and told 'not even $750k would buy the boat' and that the price 'had to have an 8 in front of it. The boat was for sale for two (2) years, and finally sold for $495k - again less than I offered, two years before.

Maybe the 'ask the moon' approach works most of the time. Maybe it generally works in a seller's market. Maybe my experiences are unique to the kind of boats I'm interested in. But I suspect not. About a year ago the same broker listed a boat for $399k. I looked into it as one of the last used boats I considered before throwing in the towel and ordering a new one. I liked it, but it had needs, I expected to be putting $150-$200k into it, and said I'd be interested somewhere in the mid $200's. Again I was rebuffed.

The boat is still for sale, now listed at $199k.

It got to the point where regardless of how interesting a boat seemed, I would no longer bother with that particular broker, because I just didn't want to play the game. Life is too short, and my remaining time is too limited for that kind of nonsense.

Except in a crazy seller's market, sometimes the first offer you get is the best offer. Sometimes, it's the only offer.

Anyone else have similar observations?

 

[Comodave]

Well, if the sellers go along with extra high pricing and slower sales then that must work because they are still in business. I usually price a boat fairly aggressively so that it will sell and then I can buy a new boat…

 

[BruceK]

Sky high initial pricing can come from a broker given to "overquoting" to get the listing(though it could also come from an over expectant owner). The biggest liar wins the listing.

Having gained the listing at a price unlikely to be realized, the broker has to "condition" the seller to accept much less than was promised. Same boat, same market, but the "blue sky price" isn`t attainable and the seller finds out the hard way. Thus the "price adjustments"(drops) to get to a price within the range it might really sell.
This scenario comes from real estate sales, and probably applies to many situations where the broker is just that and doesn`t own his "stock".
Reprehensible in an agent who owes the seller "a duty of utmost good faith", which is what a broker is. Only out is at the time of quoting, the broker was not yet appointed as agent.

 

[proudsailor]

The market will bare what the market will bare. Been searching for almost a year now and have been amazed at what appears on YachtWorld and lingers forever. A boat we took to survey after being listed for months and months had so many issues, we rejected it, the price dropped by almost a quarter (our survey caused that) and eventually it sold at 2/3rds its original list price, and even then was overpriced. It pays to know the market, follow listings, and look at comparables to know if you're buying at a fair price. I track them on marketplace, craigslist, broker sites, boats.com, and boattrader.com, and although I'm much more knowledgeable, I still feel underprepared!

 

[O C Diver]

There's a broker in New England (who will remain nameless) who I've talked with many times over the past >20 years. Very polite, courteous, responsive, knowledgeable, and well-known locally. Their approach has always been ask an absolutely b@tsh!t insane crazy price to start, and then very slowly, lower the price over a long period of time, and be relatively firm at each price point. Kind of like a 'Dutch Auction.'

It would be interesting to know how often they close at above market value. If most of their listing take years to sell, it's hard to imagine how they stay in business.

Just curious, each time you made an offer, did they present it to the owner? Did you make the offer through them or another broker. It's been my experience, when a broker is getting both sides of the commission, they work harder to sell it to the owner.

Ted

 

[slowgoesit]

As stated above, many times brokers blow sunshine up Sellers . . . nose knowing that there's no way they can sell the boat for the asking price.

• Sometimes it's because they want to get the listing, knowing that the price will have to be lowered at some point to be really competitive.
• Sometimes it's because they have no idea how much the boat should sell for (and therefore shouldn't be a broker)
• Sometimes it's because they have empty space at the brokerage dock, and a requirement of the listing is for the boat to be on the broker's dock . . . paying moorage fees to the broker . . . . even if there's no chance in Hades that it will sell for that price
• Sometimes . . . who knows?

Unfortunately in cases like this, the broker doesn't really have any skin in the game, and the people being hurt are the sellers, who are still paying moorage, insurance, upkeep, if the buyer is lucky, and sometimes, the brokers are having "their people" do the maintenance . . . as the boat sits, depreciating without a prayer of selling at the ridiculous price it is offered at . . . many times their total effort at selling the boat is placing an ad on YW. Many listings have few, or poor pics, inaccurate info like incorrect tank sizes, listing items that aren't in sale, blatant falsehoods, super exaggerated economy claims "Yes this Hatteras, with twin GMC 892's can be cruised economically at 8 kts on just 4 gallons/hour total!" (This was taken from a recent listing on YW)
There is always a disclaimer on YW stating that the listing broker is not responsible for any inaccurate info . . . .

 

[Delta Riverat]

If it's too expensive, don't buy it.

 

[IRENE]

Looking at boats in the 100K range.

As I've researched a few different brands over the last few months it seems a high % of boats on Yachtworld are priced higher than what I find of Facebook Market place, Search Tempest, Kijiji, broker sights...etc....

Opinions?

It appears you have taken the time to learn the market. You likely have more awareness about the boats you are looking at (narrow focus) than the brokers listing them (wide focus). It is what you see.

As has been mentioned, the brokered vessels have a 10% commission to cover. It has to be covered in the price, just like a real estate transaction, because the broker or brokers are getting paid when the funds are disbursed.

Accordingly, it makes sense that the private sellers would have a lower price in their listings.

This next part is a bit of thread drift - I have experienced it and watched it many times each. Often the private seller is more involved in their boating hobby and more detail-oriented than those selling with a broker. You can get a sense for this in the quality of many of the private listings. Importantly, I believe that same attention to detail is reflected in the maintenance and condition of those vessels. I prefer to purchase one of those vessels directly from a detail-oriented owner.

My comments are not intended to state a position for or against brokers.

 

[Nick14]

Sky high initial pricing can come from a broker given to "overquoting" to get the listing(though it could also come from an over expectant owner). The biggest liar wins the listing.

As stated above, many times brokers blow sunshine up Sellers . . . nose knowing that there's no way they can sell the boat for the asking price.

Good points. I hadn’t thought of the real estate analogy, which I’ve experienced myself.

One house we owned and sold, we let ourselves get led down exactly that garden path. A local realtor, well-known, effectively had a monopoly on listings in our area, came in with a price that seemed high to us but backed up by their ‘research.’

8 months and 5 (five) price reductions later, the house finally sold – for 2/3 of the originally listed price. Every month we’d get a phone call from them with the same speech – “Pricing is an inexact science”, “The worst thing you can do is ignore what the market is telling you.”

Not surprisingly, seems the same games apply to boats.

Just curious, each time you made an offer, did they present it to the owner? Did you make the offer through them or another broker. It's been my experience, when a broker is getting both sides of the commission, they work harder to sell it to the owner.

Ted

I don’t know if my offers were presented. I made offers twice. I know the first time the broker said they weren’t going to ‘bother’ presenting it because they knew the owner wouldn’t accept it. I don’t know about the second time, I just kept hearing a lot of laughter that my offer didn’t have an ‘8’ as the first digit. The last time I didn’t bother to make a written offer, with the strong discouragement I heard from even trying.

Each time I was contacting the selling broker directly, not working with a buyer’s broker. I pointed out that they would get the full commission, not having to split it with anyone, which only resulted in more laughter.

If it's too expensive, don't buy it.

I didn’t, and don’t. Neither did other people. What I find surprising and amusing is how many times boats seem to finally sell at prices below what I had offered. In addition to getting less, the owners also had the carrying costs, dockage, insurance, maintenance, etc. When I talked to the broker about the second boat, I pointed that out about the first one (the one that sat on the market for 6 years), that in addition to selling for $100k less than my offer, the seller probably incurred another $100k in costs over that time. There was no laughter to that, only silence.

Greed is such an interesting and funny thing.

 

[DDW]

It isn't only brokers that have an unrealistic view of the value of a boat. Often the owners do too. They may be emotionally involved, know what work or maintenance or upgrades they have put in, and have an unrealistic view of the value of those. In a series production boat, the historical sold prices will tell you what the boat is worth. In capitalism a thing is worth what someone will pay for it.

 

[Larry M]

Looking at boats in the 100K range.

As I've researched a few different brands over the last few months it seems a high % of boats on Yachtworld are priced higher than what I find of Facebook Market place, Search Tempest, Kijiji, broker sights...etc....

Opinions?

We have friends that owned a boat brokerage. They wouldn’t list boats priced less than $75,000. Their reasoning was the effort to sell a $75,000 or $200,000 boat was the same. Throw in a potential co-brokering agreement and the 10% of $75,000 now became 5%. With the office overhead, advertising and time involved they decided on $75k as the cut off point.

 

[slowgoesit]

We have friends that owned a boat brokerage. They wouldn’t list boats priced less than $75,000. Their reasoning was the effort to sell a $75,000 or $200,000 boat was the same. Throw in a potential co-brokering agreement and the 10% of $75,000 now became 5%. With the office overhead, advertising and time involved they decided on $75k as the cut off point.

Larry, I've run into this before with brokers. Although I understand the concept, I believe it to be a pretty short sighted attitude, especially for brokers who are planning on staying in the business for the long haul. Many times the guy that is selling the $70k boat will be looking for a $150k boat as his/her next boat. Or after he sold his $70k boat and bought a more expensive boat which he then decides to sell several years down the road, he would remember fondly the guy who listed and sold his $70k boat, and treated me fairly and with respect.
I've also run into brokers who won't work hard for to sell the $100k boat, even though it's money in the bank when it sells, but will work harder for a $400k boat. I can understand this within reason, especially when it comes to advertising $$$, but heh, if I agree to work for/represent someone (and it's my choice) I don't give more of me for the $15.00 an hour job, than the $40.00 job. When I agreed to work for them, they got ME, not the $15.00 me, or the $40.00 me.
We purchased our current boat, and worked though a broker, the Seller's broker, who treated us fairly and with respect. When we eventually sell the boat, if we don't sell her on our own, we will definitely look up the broker who we last worked with and offer him first crack at the listing, providing we are in the same area.

What goes around, comes around, for better or worse, and I have made notes of the brokers who ignored us in our boat buying search, treated us like dog poo, and those who acted like professionals. When it comes to selling our boat, I will pull up that list.

 

[Nick14]

What goes around, comes around, for better or worse, and I have made notes of the brokers who ignored us in our boat buying search, treated us like dog poo, and those who acted like professionals. When it comes to selling our boat, I will pull up that list.

Me too.

 

[Insequent]

I've seen the same kind of over-priced listings lingering for a long tie in this part of the world as well. I wonder how the brokers survive, because they only receive commission on completed sales. Of course they may like to have a large number of listings to give the impression that they are the "go-to" people to deal with.

I've also seen the other extreme, where brokers "price to sell" from the outset. They move a lot of boats, bank the commissions and move on. I suspect that some of the sellers know that they left money on the table, but realise that a boat sitting for sale for a long time will have significant holding costs such as insurance, moorage and maintenance. A quick sale where the buyer gets a great deal can be a win-win-win.

When it comes times to sell I hope I can find a good balance between the two extremes. It depends on who sees the listing at any point of time. Someone might have been waiting for that to come on the market..... And I remember an marine valuer and auctioneer telling me that no-one can do better than get to within 10% at any particular time.

 

[socalrider]

I'm always mystified by a set of boats I see here in San Diego sitting in their $800/mo ~40' slips, wasting away, year after year, with "For Sale" signs on them, asking mid five-figures, never ever used... gotta cost their owners $15-20k per year, 30-50% of the boat's value each year, over and over and over.

 

[SteveK]

Too high priced boats help sell good value for your dollar boats.
So are we being properly misled by these overpriced boats to believe that?

 

[slowgoesit]

I'm always mystified by a set of boats I see here in San Diego sitting in their $800/mo ~40' slips, wasting away, year after year, with "For Sale" signs on them, asking mid five-figures, never ever used... gotta cost their owners $15-20k per year, 30-50% of the boat's value each year, over and over and over.

It's not just San Diego . . . . We are in a small marina in the PNW. A little over 100 boats. I walked the docks with one of the other guys in the marina the other day and we counted the boats that we've ever seen out of their slips. We came up to 17 . . . . Out of 104 that have left the marina that we know of since September of 2021 since WE have been there, 16 months. We probably missed a few, but I sincerely doubt that the number was over 25. Maybe half of the 100 plus boats appear to be well maintained, with probably half of the remainder looking like they are in God's waiting room, waiting to die. But from a Marina owner's perspective, those are GREAT customers. Less people taking up parking spaces, less people using the bathrooms, less people using water (included with the moorage), and if they pay their moorage on time, it's just money in the bank!

 

[Art]

Such terrible "1st world" problems we face to buy and sell our beloved boats! A lot of women like to go cloths shopping. Some kids like bicycle shopping, Us boat nut [grown up??] guys simply love to keep going boat [and other toys] shopping.

A$k what we can get. Pay what we can find! Enjoy!!

 

[Nick14]

I'm always mystified by a set of boats I see here in San Diego sitting in their $800/mo ~40' slips, wasting away, year after year, with "For Sale" signs on them, asking mid five-figures, never ever used... gotta cost their owners $15-20k per year, 30-50% of the boat's value each year, over and over and over.

Human nature and psychology is such a funny thing. As others have said, people get very emotional about some things. Maybe most notably, boats (and houses). We get stuck on how much we think something we have is 'worth' and just won't sell it for less (regardless of what the sometimes unpleasant reality of the market is telling us).

People can all too easily get blinded by emotion. When that happens it supersedes logic. We decide we're willing to spend more money and net less, in the interests of not 'selling' something we own for less than we think it's 'worth.' 'I've got $xxx in that boat and I just won't take any less!!', though it's silly if you have to spend $15-$20k a year (or more) just in carrying costs.

Math and money don't care about emotions. Spending $50k to get $25k more for something might make a person feel better, but of course doesn't make sense financially. I've seen this happen so many times, with boats and houses.

As long as it makes someone feel better, it's their money, and everyone is free to do what they want with it. But it sure can be funny to watch

 

[Gdavid]

But from a Marina owner's perspective, those are GREAT customers. Less people taking up parking spaces, less people using the bathrooms, less people using water (included with the moorage), and if they pay their moorage on time, it's just money in the bank!

I see your point but in reality, I doubt it is always the point. A friend manages a marina, and the derelict boats are massive headache. He inherited several when he started the job. Frequently they aren't paying the bill for some reason or another, you can't just set them adrift and the process to put a lien on them to then sell or dispose of them is also a headache. The local boat yards don't want anything to do with them as you have no documentation of insurance even if it is covered so having them hauled and crushed is both expensive and tough on marinas without their own boatyards. In addition to that the unmaintained boats may or may not have functioning bilge pumps so the risk of sinking and contamination is real as well as no one coming to adjust lines or prepare them prior to storms.

 

[tiltrider1]

Human nature and psychology is such a funny thing. As others have said, people get very emotional about some things. Maybe most notably, boats (and houses). We get stuck on how much we think something we have is 'worth' and just won't sell it for less (regardless of what the sometimes unpleasant reality of the market is telling us).

People can all too easily get blinded by emotion. When that happens it supersedes logic. We decide we're willing to spend more money and net less, in the interests of not 'selling' something we own for less than we think it's 'worth.' 'I've got $xxx in that boat and I just won't take any less!!', though it's silly if you have to spend $15-$20k a year (or more) just in carrying costs.

Math and money don't care about emotions. Spending $50k to get $25k more for something might make a person feel better, but of course doesn't make sense financially. I've seen this happen so many times, with boats and houses.

As long as it makes someone feel better, it's their money, and everyone is free to do what they want with it. But it sure can be funny to watch

The automotive world is currently in denial. Used car Dealers know their inventory has dropped in value by 30%. They can’t bring themselves to sell cars for a loss. Result, cars suddenly are not selling and their lots are full with cars that they owe money on. The smart move is to take a smaller loss now. Instead most will pray for a turn around only to go broke latter.

 

[Art]

The automotive world is currently in denial. Used car Dealers know their inventory has dropped in value by 30%. They can’t bring themselves to sell cars for a loss. Result, cars suddenly are not selling and their lots are full with cars that they owe money on. The smart move is to take a smaller loss now. Instead most will pray for a turn around only to go broke latter.

In Nor Cal the dealers seem to be having hard time selling expensive new cars and their good condition used cars are well appreciating in price.

Good condition classic car and truck values here have gone through the roof!

 

[tiltrider1]

In Nor Cal the dealers seem to be having hard time selling expensive new cars and their good condition used cars are well appreciating in price.

Good condition classic car and truck values here have gone through the roof!

Lets remove classic cars from the discussion. New car dealerships are still not getting full allotments of trucks. This means there is still pressure keeping luxury truck prices high in both new and used markets.

On everything else I think you are looking at old data. Only 45% of the cars sent to auction last week actually sold. Dealers are still asking high prices but cars suddenly are not selling. Basically the interest rate has put cars out of reach of most people. New car dealers are finding that people are walking away from pre ordered car deals because they no longer qualify for the loan.

Now not all the country reacts at the same time and its possible that SoCal is slightly behind in this trend.

 

[Art]

Lets remove classic cars from the discussion. New car dealerships are still not getting full allotments of trucks. This means there is still pressure keeping luxury truck prices high in both new and used markets.

On everything else I think you are looking at old data. Only 45% of the cars sent to auction last week actually sold. Dealers are still asking high prices but cars suddenly are not selling. Basically the interest rate has put cars out of reach of most people. New car dealers are finding that people are walking away from pre ordered car deals because they no longer qualify for the loan.

Now not all the country reacts at the same time and its possible that SoCal is slightly behind in this trend.

I'm referring to Nor Cal. Hard for me to keep up with it all; not that I'm trying very much to do so. Just mentioning what I hear/see in this area. You must have close ties into the new and [fairly recently new] used auto industry?

I know that you would rather take classic cars/trucks out of the picture... but... just gotta say... I have 3 classics [one 1967 Buick Wildcat luxury muscle car / two 1-ton 4wd trucks; an 85 and a 92]. Each has doubled [or more than] in sale-price value over the last few years. Heck... even my wife's low mileage [not 100K miles yet] 2014 Lincoln MKT SUV with all options we purchased 4 yrs. ago for $16.75K has similar low-mile MKT's selling around here for $20 to $24K these days.

 

[slowgoesit]

Thread Drift!

Lets remove classic cars from the discussion. New car dealerships are still not getting full allotments of trucks. This means there is still pressure keeping luxury truck prices high in both new and used markets..

Actually, let's just remove ALL cars from the discussion please!
This is boating forum, and the thread is "What's up with YachtWorld", which deals with BOATS, not cars. Thanks for understanding!