What kind of insulation is this?

[albinalaska]

Howdy gang!

Im looking for some advice on the insulation we have on an engine room hatch of our Albin Trawler we just brought up to Alaska from Seattle. I’m curious to see if anyone out there with an older boat or experience recognizes what type of insulation this may be or knows anything about it.

This old stuff probably hasn’t been manufactured in years but we are researching a comparable replacement for sound proofing with something new on the market.

There seems to be a half inch layer of the yellow stuff then a pliable though rigid thin layer and then another inch of yellow.

Appreciate it!

 

[GregBrannon]

Pictures?

Greg

 

[albinalaska]

Apologies - must have forgot the “upload” button last time. Thanks!

 

[Swfla]

Looks like fiberglass.

 

[GregBrannon]

Possibly 2 layers of the same fiberglass stuff with the exterior 'coating' disintegrating due to age and heat. I may have similar stuff in my ER, but it's not falling apart.

Greg.

 

[OldDan1943]

Looks like what I have in my American Tug. Fiberglass with a foil covering.

 

[Comodave]

Looks like fiberglass with a decoupling layer in the middle. The decoupler is to help stop the sound vibrations from moving through it to the other side fiberglass. Take a look at Soundown insulation. I have used it on multiple boats and it is good stuff. They make different sound insulation for gas and diesel.

 

[FF]

Look at Soundown.com and see if its the same.


Frequently one layer of 1 or 2 lb/sq,ft lead , fiberglass and noise absorbing outer surface.

 

[Keysdisease]

Thats (probably incombustible) fiberglass with what looks like a lead barrier (maybe vinyl) in the middle, commonly called "Hullboard"

Available in 2", 3" and 4" overall thickness with 1 or 2lb sq ft lead. Board size usually 2' x 3', sometimes 2' x 4', several facings foil or white.

 

[albinalaska]

That’s exactly what this stuff looks like! Thank you so much for the info!

With regards to a comparable replacement; does anyone have recommendations? This Incombustable hullboard seems to be unique in its thermal absorption as well as sound insulation properties but I’m wondering if there is something out there that might work better?

Soundtec makes some insulation at Fisheries Supply (Seattle) (https://www.fisheriessupply.com/soundtec-sound-insulation-vinyl-foam-barrier-composite) that seems to be of comparable thickness but I can’t believe that vinyl foam will have anywhere near the same performance qualities as incombustible hullboard. Unless I’m wrong?

As we’re going through the vessel and doing repairs/replacements I’d just like to enclose this the right way so we don’t cover ourselves with Yellow shedding fiberglass after each engine check.

 

[Keysdisease]

Soundtec makes some insulation at Fisheries Supply (Seattle) (https://www.fisheriessupply.com/soundtec-sound-insulation-vinyl-foam-barrier-composite) that seems to be of comparable thickness but I can’t believe that vinyl foam will have anywhere near the same performance qualities as incombustible hullboard. Unless I’m wrong?

The pictures and part numbers in the Fisheries link look like Soundown Product.

All these type products use the same assembly as they are bound by the laws of physics.

A vapor barrier to keep the oil and fuel off the absorber layer

An absorber layer, to keep the noise from increasing by reverb off hard surface

Barrier layer thats mass, typically vinyl or lead

Decoupler layer, "separates" the barrier from the structure, enhancing barrier performance

What these various layers are made of make little difference in noise reduction. A 1lb vinyl barrier looks just like 1lb of lead to noise. For decoupling and absorbing fiberglass and foam act very similar.

The big difference is these two products is that the fiberglass/lead product is incombustible, and in fact is approved for use in USCG inspected vessels. The vinyl foam products will burn, but are self extinguishing.

The vinyl foam is also less expensive and easier to install, the fiberglass has a little better thermal properties

$00.02

 

[Comodave]

They don’t use lead anymore for the decoupler layer, it is a mineral loaded vinyl in most cases. The lead has not been used due to potential problems with lead poisoning.

 

[Keysdisease]

They don’t use lead anymore for the decoupler layer, it is a mineral loaded vinyl in most cases. The lead has not been used due to potential problems with lead poisoning.

Not true. Lead is used where incombustible is required, it's not used as often because of the cost vs. mass loaded vinyl which works the same.

Lead is used as the barrier layer, and is available, mostly used on inspected vessels or large class approved yachts.

 

[Comodave]

I was referring to our recreational boats.

 

[Keysdisease]

I was referring to our recreational boats.

If AlbinAlaska wanted to buy some for his boat, he could, there is no restriction on the sale or use of lead, there are reporting and warning requirements.

 

[Comodave]

But why??? Absolutely no reason to use lead instead of loaded vinyl. Personally I would not even want to do the install. Arguing that it can be done doesn’t make any sense if there is no good reason to do it. Loaded vinyl works very well and doesn’t present any dangers like lead does. Then there is the ongoing risk of the insulation breaking down like the OP has and the lead could become exposed. No sense at all to use it when there is a completely acceptable alternative.

 

[albinalaska]

This has really been helpful! Can't thank yall enough! In a scenario where I opted for mass loaded vinyl would I place that between the two layers of the sound insulation vinyl foam composite and then encase that in mylar tape or should the vinyl go down first before the layers of insulation?

 

[Comodave]

It will come as one piece with the foam, vinyl and then foam bonded together. You will have to have some means of attaching it to the boat. You can use 3M spray contact cement but it is best to do some mechanical attachment also especially if it is on the overhead. You can use sheet metal screws with large fender washers or they sell some spike type that you epoxy to the backing and then push the insulation onto the spikes and then put a cap on the spike. Go to Soundown website and they will show install process.

 

[Keysdisease]

But why??? Absolutely no reason to use lead instead of loaded vinyl. Personally I would not even want to do the install. Arguing that it can be done doesn’t make any sense if there is no good reason to do it. Loaded vinyl works very well and doesn’t present any dangers like lead does. Then there is the ongoing risk of the insulation breaking down like the OP has and the lead could become exposed. No sense at all to use it when there is a completely acceptable alternative.

I'n not arguing it can be done, I'm stating that it can if someone wants to. There are "old timers" that insist on lead, no logic will change their minds, and it's available to anyone.
There are several good reasons to use an incombustible insulation with lead as a barrier in a recreational boat. A steel or aluminum boat is basically constructed of an incombustible material (very high temp for AL) and as a rule the Marine Industry prefers to not use combustible insulation in an incombustible construction. Same could be said for the additional safety of the passive fire protection incombustible insulation provides.

Lead is poison, but it typically must be ingested.

 

[Keysdisease]

This has really been helpful! Can't thank yall enough! In a scenario where I opted for mass loaded vinyl would I place that between the two layers of the sound insulation vinyl foam composite and then encase that in mylar tape or should the vinyl go down first before the layers of insulation?

No, the VINYL foam composite has a mass loaded vinyl barrier layer in the middle of the 2 foam layers. Fisheries may only show 1" thick 1lb vinyl product but their supplier should be able to supply 2" thick 2lb sq ft product, which is the "standard" stock top of the line product.

Look at the pictures of the Fisheries link you supplied, you will see the same layers as your insulation, just instead of fiberglass / lead / fiberglass its foam / vinyl/ foam. Same type assembly for the same reasons, just different materials.

 

[Comodave]

I have used both the 1” 1 pound and the 2” 2 pound insulation. Both can be had with the vinyl in the middle. I use the 2” where weight and size doesn’t matter. Last year I reinsulated my deck in the salon. I didn’t want the extra weight in the hatches since some of them are really big so I went with the 1” 1 pound per square foot insulation.

 

[albinalaska]

Thank you again for the help yall!

Got in touch with the people at www.soundown.com and they were able to help! I ordered the 2" 2lb Vinyl Composite to replace this old shaggy fiberglass. Customer Support said the Vinyl does have similar sound absortion properties as the old Hull Board and the new silver will make it look spiffy and clean. As stated farther up the thread there ARE insturctions on their website on how to install though it's fairly straight forward.

Any advice on how to cut the material once it arrives would be appreciated! Table Saw? Razor? Appreciate the help!

 

[dennismenace111]

Take a look at 3M™ Thinsulate™ Acoustic Insulation SM600L

 

[FF]

Any advice on how to cut the material once it arrives would be appreciated! Table Saw? Razor?

A good sized set of tin snips works fine.

Not aviation sheers , they dont open wide enough.

 

[friz]

Looks like fiberglass with a decoupling layer in the middle. The decoupler is to help stop the sound vibrations from moving through it to the other side fiberglass. Take a look at Soundown insulation. I have used it on multiple boats and it is good stuff. They make different sound insulation for gas and diesel.

What thickness?

 

[Keysdisease]

Any advice on how to cut the material once it arrives would be appreciated! Table Saw? Razor? Appreciate the help!

face down

Razor knife, face down, 2-3 passes fr 2lb vinyl. Use a straightedge

If you have a lot of cutting to do an electric carving knife, like the kind that get used at Thanksgiving, work real well.

 

[Mako]

Also I would not leave the edges exposed like in your photo. You can use aluminum HVAC tape or similar to cover the edges.

 

[Pete Meisinger]

It looks to be homeowner type. I prefer the black soft foam, it deadens sound better than fiberglass.

I'm not so sure about the heat retention factor.

Yours looks to be shot.

pete

 

[Mako]

I agree with you Pete. Typical homeowner fiberglass insulation is rather poor quality in so many regards. It's not very good for houses either even though it is pretty much exclusively used. In commercial construction we always used rock wool of various densities to meet the required performance specs.

 

[Datenight]

Any advice on how to cut the material once it arrives would be appreciated! Table Saw? Razor? Appreciate the help![/QUOTE]

As has been mentioned above, a straight edge and razor knife works well and does not tear the insulation.

If using screws and fender washers to attach to the overhead run the driver/drill in reverse until the screw meets the wood. If you run in the usual forward direction you will wrap the insulation around the screw and tear a big hole. Don’t ask how I know!

I also used Soundown in my application and was very pleased with the results.

Rob