What engine manufacturers support Right To Repair?

[stubones99]

I understand that John Deere, and some other manufacturers don't allow you to access the diagnostic port data to do your own repair work. Are there any current diesel engine manufacturers that will allow you to do your own repair work?

 

[BDofMSP]

My understanding with John Deere is that access to those settings was being used to change settings that made less powerful (and less expensive) engines perform like more powerful versions. These engines weren't built for the higher ratings and developed problems. Between lost revenue and higher warranty claims, they pulled the plug completely. This of course had other consequences. This was primarily in farm settings as I understand it.

BD

 

[Lepke]

The big issue is John Deere tractors, combines and related electronics. Farmers have banded together to hack into their machinery electronics to get repair codes.
And it's not just John Deere. And it's not just farm equipment. Search "right to repair" and you'll get a lot of info.

Some manufacturers will only sell replacement parts if they do the repair. One of their issues is they think farmers are changing settings that create more emissions. Farmers say the stuff they disable doesn't work right. (Something I've said about emissions addons since the 1960s). Current diesels are about 100 times cleaner than engines from 20 years ago. But they're unreliable.

Many engines have various HP settings for the same engine and the dealers want their fee to reset the engine. This goes back many years. One I'm familiar with is the Cat 3412 has at least 3 HP electronic settings only the dealer can make. But as far as I know you can buy mechanical parts.

 

[twistedtree]

I'm all for right to repair. Yes, it will be abused by some. But I think that's far less than the abuse of customers by manufacturers by locking you out from independent and self-repair, and locking you into dealer-only repair. I know for many people, self-repair and/or independent repair is about time and getting something working again. This is huge for working machines, which is pretty much everything. They can't wait around for a dealer, and and need it fixed NOW.

 

[BDofMSP]

Like many aspects of manufacturing, it comes down to lack of consideration of the customer in the design process. It's all about lower manufacturing costs and higher service revenues. They could definitely have designed separate configuration systems for non-customer settings (like increased HP) vs customer settings, but that would have cost more, and given the history of this issue it was likely never even thought of.

In many ways, this has parallels to the Apple vs Android saga. Apple decided to "make things easier on everyone" and locks the user out of mostly everything. And then charge a premium for it and the service along with it. Google decided to open things up at the expense of a less stable, but more flexible environment. But there is no "Android Store" that you can walk into and get help from an "expert". In the end they are both viable (and legal -there is no "right") business model. The market will decide which it values.

Manufacturers should listen to their customers and decide how to best deliver to their expectations, and then design and charge accordingly, including serviceability.

BD

 

[Solly]

Absolutely no reason you couldn't-shouldn't be able to access the trouble codes. You can on cars and trucks ever since ECM's came out. OBD I and OBD II. It would be simple to lock out changing the software settings w/o a dealer connection.

 

[mvweebles]

Absolutely no reason you couldn't-shouldn't be able to access the trouble codes. You can on cars and trucks ever since ECM's came out. OBD I and OBD II. It would be simple to lock out changing the software settings w/o a dealer connection.

Quaint thought. Actual issue is much more complex - realize, there's more to it than just an engine. Includes large heavy equipment made by OEMs such as Deere and Cat. Couple this with BMW's recent approach to turn-on options (such as adaptive cruise control) via a monthly subscription versus a 1-time purchase and there's suddenly very strong reasons to align with old-technology. I'm happy with my 1990-era Perkins 4.236.

Right-to-Repair article here. Interesting approach to call your customers "agitators."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...deere-over-who-gets-to-fix-an-800-000-tractor

"Anything a farmer does on a modern tractor, beginning with opening the cab door, generates messages captured by its main onboard computer, which uploads the signals to the cloud via a cellular transmitter located, in many Deere models, beneath the driver’s seat. These machines have been meticulously programmed and tested to minimize hazards and maximize productivity, Deere says, and it’s all too complicated for farmers to be getting involved in. The issue isn’t actually repair, says Stephanie See, director of state government relations for the Association of Equipment Manufacturers—it’s agitators who insist on the right to modify the machines.

“One tweak could cascade throughout an entire software system and lead to unintended consequences,” says Julian Sanchez, Deere’s director of precision agriculture strategy and business development. In a fast-moving vehicle weighing as much as 20 tons, he says, that could mean carnage. It doesn’t take much imagination to envision a coding mistake by a hacker, or even a well-intended farmer or mechanic, that sends a 500-horsepower combine careening into a farmhouse or through a clutch of workers eating lunch in the fields."​

 

[BDofMSP]

That's all very interesting, but the answer is to remove the user completely from the system? Clearly there are read-only details and other modifiable settings that could be turned over to the user. But they've just taken the easy route out and shut down the whole thing. Much cheaper than having to design and think through which settings are which. If it's really that important to customers, another vendor will decide to invest in that direction. I'll bet (although I don't have direct knowledge) that some are already more open than others.

I think in your example however, it's not very appealing for modern farmers to return to 1990s era hardware. They're making a living off this, not recreation. The productivity advantages are massive.

BD

 

[stubones99]

Honestly, my favorite trawler would be a steel boat with two Deutz 1980 Model 6-cylinder normally aspirated air-cooled diesel engines. As hard as that is to believe, it would easily outlive me, and be overhaulable to outlive the next owner too.
But, they are not Tier III compliant and therefore banned...
Instead, you have to have a half electronic brained diesel engine with common rail injection and the slightest lightning strike will kill the MCU, leaving you dead in the water.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

I just read the entire article. WOW!

I can see the crossover as yachts manufactures are being required to install EPA mandated equipment.

I think I will keep my 1980's era smoky 3208s.

P.S.: If you have friends who are farmers and ranchers, forward this article to them.