Well, I was hoping.....

[Airstream345]

We just went through a similar process. Survey came back with a fix list and a fair market value. We called the broker and re-offered the survey value....the sellers accepted. I the end we paid about 35% less than the listing and everyone was happy. We accept the needed repairs they sold their boat.

It's worth what it's worth in the end. If the sellers want more they need to remediate to improve the value or adjust their expectations of the market. Tough stuff for both sides.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Star0210

I guess I look at the valuation as similar to a house appraisal. Why would you pay more than it’s worth? The bank won’t loan more than it’s worth.

It's not similar to a house appraisal. The appraiser may not even have access to Sold Boats to give a history of sales. There's not the same information available. I can look at all houses sold in a neighborhood, look at price per sq ft, look at conditions and add or subtract a little and come darn close to a real estate appraisal. But on boats, its very different. You don't have easily available comparables. No two boats are in the same condition. The pricing varies widely by location. The surveyor is not necessarily a market expert. This is one huge advantage of a buyer's broker as they could give you someone to bounce this off of.

I wouldn't dismiss this information yet, but I wouldn't take it as gospel yet either. Ask the broker for Sold Boat of all comparables. Then discuss with the surveyor. Discuss with other boaters you have confidence in. Don't do anything without more information. Perhaps the surveyor is 100% right and has saved you from a mistake. However, perhaps they are wrong as well.

I sold a boat not long ago for more than market. We told the buyer. We had no plans to sell the boat. They loved the boat and they wanted the specific boat in spite of the fact there were others from the same year for considerably less. We quoted our ridiculous price and they said they'd take it. The buyer is even more thrilled with the purchase now. Honestly, they got a good boat at a reasonable price but not based on comps.

Consider and evaluate all information.

[Insequent]

Yes, get more info. If the surveyor does not have access to sold boats, or is not a broker himself as well, he may be wildly off. Even brokers can differ a lot on boats - one told me that in this kind of price range and age opinions can differ by +/- 20%. Boat valuations are nothing like houses, very far from 'exact science'.

The market here has recently shifted towards boats under 10 years old. Older boats are not really in demand, and market values for them drop. I am in the process of getting 5 year survey and valuation. Two different people being used, as the tasks themselves are very different IMO. I don't like what I'm hearing on value, but I'm pragmatic as that's what the insurers will accept on an 'agreed value' policy. Brokers here also say it is very difficult to sell boats with Detroits in them. That is not going to improve any time soon, but at least you (and I) don't have that problem.

At the end of the day it is what you are willing to pay, and what the seller is willing to take. The broker who traded it is will know how long it can take to find someone like you who wants it, and has to consider holding cost of financing and marina berth costs also. Given there are defects not apparent when you previously agreed a price you do have points to negotiate with. You might be quite surprised about what offer will be accepted.

My view on used boats is that you should only pay 70% of your budget for the boat. The other 30% is for repairs and upgrades in the first year. If you don't spend it that's great, but if you do then you are set for manageable annual costs thereafter.

[Star0210]

Originally Posted by BandB

It's not similar to a house appraisal. The appraiser may not even have access to Sold Boats to give a history of sales. There's not the same information available. I can look at all houses sold in a neighborhood, look at price per sq ft, look at conditions and add or subtract a little and come darn close to a real estate appraisal. But on boats, its very different. You don't have easily available comparables. No two boats are in the same condition. The pricing varies widely by location. The surveyor is not necessarily a market expert. This is one huge advantage of a buyer's broker as they could give you someone to bounce this off of.

I wouldn't dismiss this information yet, but I wouldn't take it as gospel yet either. Ask the broker for Sold Boat of all comparables. Then discuss with the surveyor. Discuss with other boaters you have confidence in. Don't do anything without more information. Perhaps the surveyor is 100% right and has saved you from a mistake. However, perhaps they are wrong as well.

I sold a boat not long ago for more than market. We told the buyer. We had no plans to sell the boat. They loved the boat and they wanted the specific boat in spite of the fact there were others from the same year for considerably less. We quoted our ridiculous price and they said they'd take it. The buyer is even more thrilled with the purchase now. Honestly, they got a good boat at a reasonable price but not based on comps.

Consider and evaluate all information.

Thanks. We are definitely seeking more information. We do have a broker...actually two....they are a husband and wife team. They were there with David yesterday. We will be talking with them tomorrow once they’ve had a chance to look at the survey report.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Star0210

Thanks. We are definitely seeking more information. We do have a broker...actually two....they are a husband and wife team. They were there with David yesterday. We will be talking with them tomorrow once they’ve had a chance to look at the survey report.

They are your broker and not the seller's broker?

[Star0210]

Originally Posted by BandB

They are your broker and not the seller's broker?

Yes...they are ours. They are local here. The seller is a broker and he owns the boat. He took it as a trade in.

[Star0210]

Originally Posted by Insequent

Yes, get more info. If the surveyor does not have access to sold boats, or is not a broker himself as well, he may be wildly off. Even brokers can differ a lot on boats - one told me that in this kind of price range and age opinions can differ by +/- 20%. Boat valuations are nothing like houses, very far from 'exact science'.

The market here has recently shifted towards boats under 10 years old. Older boats are not really in demand, and market values for them drop. I am in the process of getting 5 year survey and valuation. Two different people being used, as the tasks themselves are very different IMO. I don't like what I'm hearing on value, but I'm pragmatic as that's what the insurers will accept on an 'agreed value' policy. Brokers here also say it is very difficult to sell boats with Detroits in them. That is not going to improve any time soon, but at least you (and I) don't have that problem.

At the end of the day it is what you are willing to pay, and what the seller is willing to take. The broker who traded it is will know how long it can take to find someone like you who wants it, and has to consider holding cost of financing and marina berth costs also. Given there are defects not apparent when you previously agreed a price you do have points to negotiate with. You might be quite surprised about what offer will be accepted.

My view on used boats is that you should only pay 70% of your budget for the boat. The other 30% is for repairs and upgrades in the first year. If you don't spend it that's great, but if you do then you are set for manageable annual costs thereafter.

I don’t know for certain if he has sold boat info. I know we have that info. Our broker provided it to us when we made the offer on the first boat. I didn’t really look at it so I don’t know off the top of my head what info we gleaned from that...I was pretty out of it at that time recovering from my back surgery. I will study that info tomorrow. I recall there not being many comps.
The survey rates this boat as being in “fair” condition. The report says this:

“The grading of condition, developed by BUC RESEARCH, and accepted in the marine industry, for a vessel at the time of survey, determines the adjustment to the range of base values in the BUC USED BOAT PRICE GUIDE, for a similar vessel sold within a given time period, as a consideration to determine the Market Value.”

I would be really interested to know what his surveyor valued the boat it when he had it surveyed a few months ago.

David and I have a lot to discuss tomorrow.

[BruceK]

If the value would be more like the purchase price but for defects the surveyor found, then there is good reason to renegotiate. Subject of course to the seller offering to make good the defects.
But if you,on one view, made a mistake agreeing to a price, under advice from your own broker,changing that could be unfair to the seller.
A surveyors principal expertise is boat assessment, not valuation. Though you would expect he has some knowledge of value. The value of most things usually lies in a range, rather than at one precise figure.
It seems to me a sale agreement is usually little more than an option given to a buyer to check the boat, and if satisfied buy it, at the agreed price, or another agreed price.
It sounds like this is getting a little complex and stressful. Deep breaths, take it easy, step by step. I read you are prepared to walk away if you have to, let`s hope it won`t come to that but if it does, so be it. The preparedness to do that puts you in a powerful negotiating position. You are fortunate to have your own broker`s advices.

[Comodave]

I would not be too concerned about being fair to the seller, he is a professional boat broker. I would be more concerned about being fair to myself. The owner/broker is sitting on an asset that he is paying interest on and it is depreciating every day. I would use the survey to renegotiate the price based on the value as determined by the survey unless you are just in love with the boat and are willing to pay any price. Either way, I wish you good luck and hope you end up happy with whatever decisyou make.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Star0210

“The grading of condition, developed by BUC RESEARCH, and accepted in the marine industry, for a vessel at the time of survey, determines the adjustment to the range of base values in the BUC USED BOAT PRICE GUIDE, for a similar vessel sold within a given time period, as a consideration to determine the Market Value.”

That is even worse. He just pulled a value from a book. I've checked values against BUC and found it useless and inconsistent, both high and low. BUC offers a personalized service but this one is all computer algorithm. Also, it really seems more in line on smaller production boats sold in very large volume, not for larger or small volume boats. It's not a carefully determined value by a professional.

[Star0210]

Thank you all very much for sharing your thoughts, opinions, and knowledge with me. It really helps to have a sounding board and to be able to talk it out.

[Star0210]

Originally Posted by BandB

That is even worse. He just pulled a value from a book. I've checked values against BUC and found it useless and inconsistent, both high and low. BUC offers a personalized service but this one is all computer algorithm. Also, it really seems more in line on smaller production boats sold in very large volume, not for larger or small volume boats. It's not a carefully determined value by a professional.

Thanks...I’m not familiar with it. I know David has done some research and looked at that and a couple of others that I can’t remember the names of. If I am remembering correctly, I think he said BUC was the lower of them all.

[firstbase]

First, I know little to nothing so keep that in mind. I went through the same process a year ago. Actually started 2 years ago. I found much what B&B said. Boats, houses, two different things. The valuations from surveyors varied greatly. When looking at one surveyors low valuation I asked him if he could show me comparables he could not. Even as a newb, I was the one spending hour upon hour deep diving on every website and source looking at boats. I knew the list pricing ranges of the boats far better than he did. Yes, not actual sales prices but I used a 10% factor for a big picture view. Sold 10% less than listing. Sure there were/are outliers, great deals as well as highly overpriced boats but..big picture I found that I was pretty close. My point is that most likely you know better than he does as you have been the one searching and looking. Plus...what factors are important to you that you are willing to pay for? For me it was a "northern" boat that hadn't spent 30 years in the Florida sun, FL 135's, teak decks that were serviceable, and an engine room that showed signs of care and not just sprucing up for a sale. I was willing to pay more for those. I am happy with my price even though some would probably say it was a little high. Again, those that said it couldn't show me any actual real life boats to prove their point.

Second thing I did was I banked away 10% of the purchase price for 1st year maintenance and repairs. Even though I found the "perfect boat" with no known issues, impeccable shape for 30 years old, I spent that 10% and a little more. Things seem to pop up out of nowhere. My experience is that is the norm not the exception.

[StarsMan]

All very good info and feedback and yes, all things we are looking at, considering, and digesting. I’ve looked at NADA, ABOS, BUC and sold boats of this model from the last three years. The range is huge and no specific rhyme or reason to it. There has been a general market appreciation in the last year or two rather than the standard depreciation of 5 years ago. That also plays into it.

As for what we are willing to pay for vs what we are willing to fix, that is also something we have discussed and have a pretty solid list on. This boat ticks 4 of the top 5 items. The stray electrical current corrosion though is a pretty big deal. And an issue we haven’t encountered before so I don’t have the research basis for it yet. But I will work on that today.

[Donsan]

Second what firstbase says about northern boats. I see 2 Cruisers Yachts 50' Sedan Sports in the the upper midwest on YW. These boats are likely to be always freshwater. They spend 7 months a year inside a heated barn in the winter. The condition of the northern boats are normally head and shoulders better than a FL salt water boat. The main problem would be getting it home as you would not want to tackle the inland waterways during spring flood season. Of course, these northern boats too would need to survey out so YMMV.

Sounds like you have a real hard decision and hope it works out. That model has a fantastic layout.

[Star0210]

Originally Posted by Donsan

Second what firstbase says about northern boats. I see 2 Cruisers Yachts 50' Sedan Sports in the the upper midwest on YW. These boats are likely to be always freshwater. They spend 7 months a year inside a heated barn in the winter. The condition of the northern boats are normally head and shoulders better than a FL salt water boat. The main problem would be getting it home as you would not want to tackle the inland waterways during spring flood season. Of course, these northern boats too would need to survey out so YMMV.

Sounds like you have a real hard decision and hope it works out. That model has a fantastic layout.

Yep...we are very familiar with all the boats of this make and model that are on the market currently except there’s a new one that just popped up in the last couple of days in Florida. We know the history of nearly all the boats as well. The one in Ohio is very very nice cosmetically. But it has the smaller Volvo engines. Also that hull is not painted, it’s wrapped. The current owner bought it in Florida and brought it up to the Midwest. Now they are ready for a bigger more expensive boat. The blue hulled boat in Michigan is the only other one that has the big Volvo’s like “ours” does. We haven’t made any serious inquiries on that boat so other than basics we don’t know much about the condition of it. We weighed the cost of getting a boat home from way up there and the wait and time to be able to get it home and decided the money we would spend on that we could spend “sprucing up” a boat down here.

The first boat we had a contract on had the Detroit’s in it. Those engines were crap and the boat did not perform anywhere near what it should have. David spoke to another broker who has one or two of the other listings and one of them has the same Detroit’s and he gave us performance data on that boat that we were underwhelmed with. He also said it wasn’t meant to go any faster than that. Weird statement. Anyway, we decided we didn’t really want a boat with these Detroit engines in it. We decided we like the bigger Volvo’s and there are only two boats currently listed that have these engines. This one we have a contract on and the one in Michigan.

The layout is probably what we love the most about the boat. It’s what drew us to it. It’s very open.

[Star0210]

Originally Posted by firstbase

First, I know little to nothing so keep that in mind. I went through the same process a year ago. Actually started 2 years ago. I found much what B&B said. Boats, houses, two different things. The valuations from surveyors varied greatly. When looking at one surveyors low valuation I asked him if he could show me comparables he could not. Even as a newb, I was the one spending hour upon hour deep diving on every website and source looking at boats. I knew the list pricing ranges of the boats far better than he did. Yes, not actual sales prices but I used a 10% factor for a big picture view. Sold 10% less than listing. Sure there were/are outliers, great deals as well as highly overpriced boats but..big picture I found that I was pretty close. My point is that most likely you know better than he does as you have been the one searching and looking. Plus...what factors are important to you that you are willing to pay for? For me it was a "northern" boat that hadn't spent 30 years in the Florida sun, FL 135's, teak decks that were serviceable, and an engine room that showed signs of care and not just sprucing up for a sale. I was willing to pay more for those. I am happy with my price even though some would probably say it was a little high. Again, those that said it couldn't show me any actual real life boats to prove their point.

Second thing I did was I banked away 10% of the purchase price for 1st year maintenance and repairs. Even though I found the "perfect boat" with no known issues, impeccable shape for 30 years old, I spent that 10% and a little more. Things seem to pop up out of nowhere. My experience is that is the norm not the exception.

You sound like my hubby. He made a spreadshett with data on all of the boats of this make and model that are on the market so he could look at them each side by side and have easy links to their ads.

The thing that’s most important to us is to have good, sound engines. The first boat we had a contract on was a bit nicer overall but survey found the engines needed substantial work to the tune of $50-$60k. Then there was no guarantee that it would perform as it should. Performance is very important to us. I don’t want to buy a boat that needs viagra! Lol

And yes...we have funds set aside to do whatever needs to be done on whatever boat we end up with. There’s ALWAYS stuff to do...whether it’s stuff that NEEDS to be done or stuff that you just WANT to be done.

Our first boat (the one in David’s profile pic) was an inexpensive boat. We put 2-3 times over what we paid for it into it. Most of that was expected things...either upgrades or general maintenance...some of it not so expected like blowing a hole in the generator and having to buy a brand new one. Ouch. Lol

We’re certainly not going to buy a boat that we cannot afford to maintain properly or fix should something unexpected happen.

I want to pay a fair price for a boat...we aren’t looking for a steal of a deal. I do think the survey valuation is a bit low but given the things that were discovered that we did not know about, I think there is some room for negotiation.

[Pedro]

My humble opinion:

1) "Old" boat will never ever be in pristine mechanical condition, no matter what the seller tells you; I doubt it that any owner of an used boat knows what and when will fail, he can only validate to the best of his knowledge, that can be very good or poor. It is a fact that even new boats will seldom be defect-free.
2) "Price" is an amount of money that someone is willing to pay for a good. It cannot be superseded by survey, or ay concept of market value.
3) Banks are never sure of the real price of what they finance, specially used goods. For that reason, they do not finance 100%, but you have to offer 100% of the good as colateral, and often more stuff.

[Donsan]

Isn't the value assigned by surveyors for insurance purposes rather than sales pricing?

[Star0210]

Originally Posted by Pedro

My humble opinion:

1) "Old" boat will never ever be in pristine mechanical condition, no matter what the seller tells you; I doubt it that any owner of an used boat knows what and when will fail, he can only validate to the best of his knowledge, that can be very good or poor. It is a fact that even new boats will seldom be defect-free.
2) "Price" is an amount of money that someone is willing to pay for a good. It cannot be superseded by survey, or ay concept of market value.
3) Banks are never sure of the real price of what they finance, specially used goods. For that reason, they do not finance 100%, but you have to offer 100% of the good as colateral, and often more stuff.

I’m not sure what I ever said that would make you or anyone else think we are expecting to purchase a 14 yr old boat and have it be in perfect condition mechanically or otherwise. We do however expect,for the price we are paying, to have a boat that is free of any MAJOR issues. A stray current corrosion issue seems to be a pretty major issue to me. Simply replacing the running gear and prop doesn’t fix the problem.