Welding a manifold on Lehman 120 2715E

[GB32Patience]

I had posted earlier on several threads but thought a new post would be appropriate here. Let me know if wrong approach... open to proper info management... OK, here is the story.. A few months back, I removed my Exhaust Elbow in order to fit in a new fuel tank. Per direction from Brian at ADC, who I went to for the $2.00 gasket to replace elbow, "inspect that elbow, they have a 1600Hr replacement schedule"... sure enough.. i stuck a screw driver through the bottom and long story short... I did similar to the Manifold.... elbow.. no problem.. replace... manifold... big problem,, no one has.. lots of good and appreciated direction on forum as well. Ultimately, I am on "wait list" at ADC for new manifold but to salvage my season, I went to see if the damage (burn through) was repairable via welding. Found a local shop that specializes in this type of repair, essentially old school diesel refurb and repair.... "SuperWeld" in Farmingdale, NY... on Long Island. Once I removed the manifold from the engine and removed from boat (just me.. arg...) I worked with Roy at Superweld who assured me that I will be happy with their work. Work was done in a week.. Orig est $500, ultimately $600 as they did a bit more work than the hole repair, adding material to the mating face of the manifold... well you can see in the images... Interesting process... all I can say is that they used Silicon Bronze for the weld. Roy noted that the drilled additional holes in the manifold, either side of the burn hole in order to "join" the weld material on the inside and outside... makes sense. They also added a bit of material to the facing surface of the manifold and machined it flat to accept the exhaust elbow. That being said... At this point, I am optimistic that I have a functioning repair here. I know there are many opinions regarding welding on cast iron but these folks seemed to know what they are doing. In the "any port in a storm" approach, they seemed like a good port.. I am still on ADC, Brian's "wait list" for the new manufactured manifold but will monitor my repair. In a corner and need some specialty welding, give Roy at Superweld a ring.. good to have options.... I will be closely monitoring this repair through the season and will report to this thread... Thanks! Patience
Hopefully I pre-rotated in the right direction!

 

[warfdog]

I am close to a similar predicament so looking forward to the story of this one.

Did Brian have any though on when or if new castings would be available?

 

[GB32Patience]

No.... Only that I was "forth" on the waitlist.. his reference to timing was that it could be "months".... several or more... he also noted that the castings that he receive come in needing more and more work by him to make them serviceable.. I can look back in prior thread but there is a shop in GA I think that will make from scratch but you need to send them yours for model... let me know if you need that info...good luck

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

wow.. very cool local repair at a reasonable price

 

[Ox76]

Drill through the hole so you have clean metal inside the hole. Then you can braze it with MAPP gas and cast iron brazing rods, sourced from a welding shop.

 

[Lepke]

As long as the repair is properly prepared, preheated, and allowed to slowly cool after welding, cast iron can be permanently repaired.
Lots of new castings with imperfections get welded.

 

[Ox76]

That is correct. I was giving another option besides welding. I've successfully repaired cast iron both ways.

 

[CharlieO.]

Looks good, How many hours were on that one?

 

[GB32Patience]

Hey Charlie, Unsure actually... Boat is a 1978, meter says 850 hours but prior owner said more like 1200... I would venture to say somewhere in the 2000 Hr range. The fact that the Exhaust elbow has a 1600 Hour replacement interval per ADC/Brian sounds about right. This manifold hole was almost a duplicate of the burn through of the Elbow. This is the area where the salt water gets mixed with the exhaust so a tough environment... I would say that anyone replacing that elbow should do a little poking upstream as well.... Ironically, this all started with me trying to fit in the new Moeller tank.. (install went nicely btw)...

 

[CharlieO.]

Thanks for the info. That was one of the reasons I did the smaller tanks, I was worried if I started removing parts to get in my new tanks that I'd open up a can of worms that would delay my departure from Liberty Landing.

I'm glad your tank install went well.

I plan on checking out my cooling system this summer. I know for now I'm not losing antifreeze, not gaining raw water, and running a steady 180 degrees.

 

[GB32Patience]

You are so right about that can of worms.... good call on that strategy and glad to hear running well. See if you can address those worms one at a time....

 

[SoWhat]

I think Lehman's in general are reaching the end of their life cycle. Parts will become increasingly difficult to find. It just isn't economical to carry expensive inventory for a decreasing base. Try to find a Velvet drive CR2 control valve in stock. Custom fabrication will become the norm. I just might increase my spares inventory.

 

[GB32Patience]

Agreed and I am quickly finding out that although these engines are "good for 8-10K Hours", I am thinking now that that may be referring to the block, pistons, crankshaft, etc. There are many components hanging off of this block that have much shorter lifespans and are to be looked at as "periodic replacement based on a given/known schedule. One example is that Exhaust Elbow that has a lifespan of 1600 hours per Brian at ADC. I wonder if he has a chart, or one exists that would give replacement cycles for Heat Exchanger, Expansion Tank, Oil Coolers, etc.. the stuff that has contact with heat and liquids.... fuel lift pump, salt water pump, etc. Regular inspection and zinc replacement being a given. Wondering what expected hours for that Manifold actually is? It suffered the exact same fail as the Elbow,,,, I do agree with your "stock up" theory...

 

[jleonard]

On Boatdiesel it is referred to as “marine age” and really doesn’t have all that much to do with engine hours.
The manifold on the Lehman I had in my 1983 Albin was excellent at almost 5000 hours but the boat spent most of its life in fresh water. Plus when I had it in salt water for 15 years it got a very long fresh water flush prior to layup.
Plus some areas are more saline than others so that’s a factor.

Regarding the weld repair it looks like a good solution to me. Good luck with it.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

This is the area where the salt water gets mixed with the exhaust so a tough environment.

Although the saltwater isn't supposed to get up to the manifold (only the elbow), the picture makes it look like this happened, maybe a few times. The rust through is right inside the low point of the manifold. The saltwater drys out every time the engine is run, but only the water evaporates, leaving salt crystals to do their damage over the years.

My original owner welded on a stainless "high rise" manifold to the original cast iron elbow, shown below with the lagging removed. That made the saltwater entry (after the heat discoloration) well down stream from any cast iron. The old shortened cast iron exhaust elbow is still in place after 8,000(?) hours. The modification was made pre-1991, so I don't know exact engine hours. It appears that without saltwater contact, the cast iron elbow has lived a long life.

One of the exhaust elbow bolts is broken off, so I have an elbow replacement in my future. I'll probably go with a new stainless elbow welded to the existing stainless riser and be done with the issue for at least another 40 years.

 

[GB32Patience]

jleonard, good to see that many hours can be had and for sure the fresh water was a contributing period there. Our vessel has had a full salt water life so a bit harder on it. Re: the end of season, I will usually run 10-15 Mins in "the bucket" but considering a descaling solution this season. Will see how that goes.

Marco, agreed as well re: the salt environment and do like the ingenuity of previous owner keeping the salt injection well away from the engine itself.

I am envious of all the hours you all are spending on the water. Hopefully we will get some life and a few seasons (70-90 Hrs/ 4-5 Mos. season) out of this repair as new manifolds don't come cheap... if you can find them..

Thanks all for input and comments

 

[twistedtree]

Although the saltwater isn't supposed to get up to the manifold (only the elbow), the picture makes it look like this happened, maybe a few times. The rust through is right inside the low point of the manifold. The saltwater drys out every time the engine is run, but only the water evaporates, leaving salt crystals to do their damage over the years.



My original owner welded on a stainless "high rise" manifold to the original cast iron elbow, shown below with the lagging removed. That made the saltwater entry (after the heat discoloration) well down stream from any cast iron. The old shortened cast iron exhaust elbow is still in place after 8,000(?) hours. The modification was made pre-1991, so I don't know exact engine hours. It appears that without saltwater contact, the cast iron elbow has lived a long life.



One of the exhaust elbow bolts is broken off, so I have an elbow replacement in my future. I'll probably go with a new stainless elbow welded to the existing stainless riser and be done with the issue for at least another 40 years.

You might consider adding a flex section close to the exit from the manifold. That’s a very large structure hanging off the manifold and getting whipped around as the engine vibrates. I had such an issue on a previous boat and it ripped the turbo off (snapped all the mounting bolts) not once, but twice before I figured out what was going on and fixed it.

 

[dlucas61]

What size Moeller tank did you install?

 

[sure thing]

well depending on vessel most of you would never do it. but I might do it on mine when the problem comes. most all comercial vessel's have a dri stack exhaust. Lots of the run kill coolers with normal truck or tractor engines and parts. comercial fisherman have done it for years to save costs. we have a 40 marine trader uropa i think it would look pretty cool with a stack on it. If you have to have something made i would recommend going to the high performance inboard guys they have custom exhaust made for many of there applications and there should be plenty of sources out there. Offshore Only, would be a good place to start. I hope I gave a few thoughts some may not like but always more than the normal path to look at.

 

[GB32Patience]

Moeller 58 Gal Fuel Tank

What size Moeller tank did you install?

Hey dlucas, we put in the Moeller 58 Gal. Moeller in high capacity had been hard to come by but actually found one on West Marine for a very reasonable price down in Annapolis, and they shipped it to local store for free.... worked for me. There was one more left in Key West! but that may be claimed by now... you never know. A few interesting elements on installing these tanks... ping me if you go in that direction... I had to modify the level sender for diesel return but suitable for gas as well. Here is the "bed" I created for it.....

 

[Choices]

Good info on the welding, I will keep this string dog eared.

I don't agree with the 8-10k hours statement. I am at 6k now, no problems. Expect 20k, motor will out last the boat. Just replaced motor mounts and you can not feel the engine running from the bridge, incredible difference. I agree parts are hard to find, but this engine is still made in Turkey, although not marinized. England has them advertised regularly for export.

Just has a BW drop shaft rebuilt. I think it was Harbor Marine in Washington state. $4k, but parts are available.

I just moved the oil filter and went to the extra long filter. Will post in my blog when I get final pictures.

 

[TBill36]

You mentioned being on the wait list for a new manifold. Just curious if you looked into having one printed? I keep hearing about all sorts of stuff, guns etc., being printed, and I would think it would be an excellent oportunity for obsolete parts. I know nothing about it and just wondered if anyone has pursued this for this type of application.

 

[Choices]

The technology is there to print the manifold, but the hardware is not.

Currently printing is limited to about 30"x30".

A machine that can print that manifold is not commercially available that I am aware of.

Probably a year away....

Cost for that part would be around $10k if guessing.

 

[Nick F]

This link looks interesting. Manifolds were typically cast using sand molds. Now the sand mold can be 3D printed. Sand withstands the heat and, after the iron has solidified and cooled, the sand is broken up and cleaned out.

https://okfoundry.com/3d-printed-sand-molds/

I have no experience of this new capability but I am very interested to know if it is a viable way to make parts like manifolds. Once the computer file of the 3D shape is created it could be made available to others on the site to the benefit of the community.

Nick

 

[GB32Patience]

Have not looked into printing but by the time my weld fails hopefully the technology and equipment have refined enough to leverage that direction!

Thanks!

 

[dlucas61]

I am installing 4 Moeller 50 gallon tanks in my Marine Trader Europa 40. Removed 2 200 gallon leaking steel tanks. It been quite a project.

 

[GB32Patience]

I am installing 4 Moeller 50 gallon tanks in my Marine Trader Europa 40. Removed 2 200 gallon leaking steel tanks. It been quite a project.

You may be well along in your project but Moeller (under another manufacturer "umbrella", poss Dometic?) does have a reasonable technical help desk... the first string is helpfull but they are reading from a manual... There is a second level help desk person, although I forget his name, you better have your P/N ready "we have hundreds of 58 gal tanks out there"! and he will tell you exactly what you need regarding installation, etc. Just ask for the Moeller specialist.
Sounds like you will have a great set up. I'm sure the plumbing will be a sight to behold! Good luck.