Water Maker options

[socalrider]

Yes, you just backwash it to clean it, but not necessarily every time. And it's no more of a petri dish than a cartridge filter. There's an article on putting one together in my blog. A search there should turn it up pretty easily.

Found it! Pasted below for others' reference - very helpful.

Adventures of Tanglewood: Water Maker Media Filter

I haven't had any issues with my stock Spectra Ventura setup (single 5 micron filter) in SoCal, but I run mostly in open water that's quite clear, but great to have this option in mind for if/when we're running in cloudier water more regularly.

 

[twistedtree]

Found it! Pasted below for others' reference - very helpful.

Adventures of Tanglewood: Water Maker Media Filter

I haven't had any issues with my stock Spectra Ventura setup (single 5 micron filter) in SoCal, but I run mostly in open water that's quite clear, but great to have this option in mind for if/when we're running in cloudier water more regularly.

It very much depends on where you are, and I don't think you can judge by looking at the water, or at least I can't. I've had two Spectra's in the past and was always having to change filters every 3-5 hrs of run time. I had a set that I would cycle through, washing in between, but it was honestly a real nuisance and made me question to utility of a water maker.


And to complicate matters, I would regularly hear from people like you who seldom have to change their filters, yet there I was having to change them every several hours. I always ran in open, clear water, so was really stumped. Along the way I started hearing about media filters and discovered that they were pretty common in the PNW. Then I saw a vendor at the Seattle boat show and bought his display model to try out.


All I can say is WOW, what a difference.

 

[OldDan1943]

Hmmm Rainmaker is still on the internet.

https://www.rainmandesal.com

 

[ksanders]

It very much depends on where you are, and I don't think you can judge by looking at the water, or at least I can't. I've had two Spectra's in the past and was always having to change filters every 3-5 hrs of run time. I had a set that I would cycle through, washing in between, but it was honestly a real nuisance and made me question to utility of a water maker.


And to complicate matters, I would regularly hear from people like you who seldom have to change their filters, yet there I was having to change them every several hours. I always ran in open, clear water, so was really stumped. Along the way I started hearing about media filters and discovered that they were pretty common in the PNW. Then I saw a vendor at the Seattle boat show and bought his display model to try out.


All I can say is WOW, what a difference.

That me. I change my 20 micron filter every couple weeks in the summer, and change the 5 micron unit maybe every other time. Winter is of course less because less sunlight means less marine life.

I do not wash them out, but probably should. I just buy them on amazon about once a year or so.

That might change as I head south but for now it's not an issue. I go through about 50 gallons of potable water a day on average. Some days more, some less of course.

 

[twistedtree]

That me. I change my 20 micron filter every couple weeks in the summer, and change the 5 micron unit maybe every other time. Winter is of course less because less sunlight means less marine life.

I do not wash them out, but probably should. I just buy them on amazon about once a year or so.

That might change as I head south but for now it's not an issue. I go through about 50 gallons of potable water a day on average. Some days more, some less of course.

Oh, I also discovered along the way that Spectra watermakers seem much more susceptible to filter blockage, and after a very long time, figured out why. Their boost pumps - the pump that draws from the seacock and pushes the water through to the filters - is very low power/pressure. It doesn't take much blockage to lose enough pressure for the watermaker to complain.


In contrast, AC-powered watermakers typically have much larger boost pumps that run at 30 psi or more, so it takes a lot more blockage before you start to starve the high pressure pump.

 

[socalrider]

Oh, I also discovered along the way that Spectra watermakers seem much more susceptible to filter blockage, and after a very long time, figured out why. Their boost pumps - the pump that draws from the seacock and pushes the water through to the filters - is very low power/pressure. It doesn't take much blockage to lose enough pressure for the watermaker to complain.


In contrast, AC-powered watermakers typically have much larger boost pumps that run at 30 psi or more, so it takes a lot more blockage before you start to starve the high pressure pump.

Great point - this is a great discussion.

You have the Spectra Newport 1000, which has 5x the flow rate of my Ventura 200 - I wonder if your boost pump is less than 5x the rating of mine and thus more sensitive to blockage?

 

[Ka_sea_ta]

On our last boat I used an above ground pool 12 inch sand filter as the pre-filter, as you might expect it did help to extend the time between changing out the 20 and 5 micron filters.



On our current boat with a cruise ro WM, instead of a sand filter I added a 50 micron cartridge filter. It seems to me that the time between primary filter changes is about the same as with the sand filter. The fact that you can back flush the sand filter makes it a better choice if you have the room.

 

[ksanders]

Oh, I also discovered along the way that Spectra watermakers seem much more susceptible to filter blockage, and after a very long time, figured out why. Their boost pumps - the pump that draws from the seacock and pushes the water through to the filters - is very low power/pressure. It doesn't take much blockage to lose enough pressure for the watermaker to complain.


In contrast, AC-powered watermakers typically have much larger boost pumps that run at 30 psi or more, so it takes a lot more blockage before you start to starve the high pressure pump.

Now I understand. When I bought my "kit" the low pressure pump was a Jabsco potable water pump. Pressure was regulated by a bypasss valve between the output and input.

I was not a big fan of this and installed a Jabsco Variable flow pump and eliminated the complexity of the bypass valve. This pump will produce 45psi at I think 4 GPM. My normal boost pressure runs around 30 psi after the filters when they are new. I watch this pressure and when it gets down to close to zero change out the filter(s).

I am not in complete agreement with Rich on this design using a 12V boost pump. He likes them because they allow timed periodic flushing on boats that are not full time inverter equipped, which fits his sailboat cruiser market segment.

At some point I might source an AC powered low pressure pump as long as it is variable flow and has a good PSI output, something I will keep in mind based on your comment. That is down the road though as I am fully spared up.

 

[twistedtree]

On our last boat I used an above ground pool 12 inch sand filter as the pre-filter, as you might expect it did help to extend the time between changing out the 20 and 5 micron filters.



On our current boat with a cruise ro WM, instead of a sand filter I added a 50 micron cartridge filter. It seems to me that the time between primary filter changes is about the same as with the sand filter. The fact that you can back flush the sand filter makes it a better choice if you have the room.

Space is indeed the down side to a media filter. I have heard other people having success with a "plankton filter" which I gather is a fine mesh stainless strainer basket type of filter. I suspect that's much the same as your 50 micron pre-pre filter. I considered a plankton filter, but decided I wanted to hit the problem with the biggest possible hammer I could find, so I went straight to a media filter.

 

[twistedtree]

Great point - this is a great discussion.

You have the Spectra Newport 1000, which has 5x the flow rate of my Ventura 200 - I wonder if your boost pump is less than 5x the rating of mine and thus more sensitive to blockage?

The Newport 1000 actually had tandem pumps, presumably to overcome this exact issue.

 

[Hippocampus]

Now have a AC Sea recovery on this boat. Membrane was removed and stored on land. Second owner used RO but third not at all hence it was decommissioned. I’m restoring it to running condition. Any tricks of the trade I should know about? Has two large commercial prefilters which is a new wrinkle for me.
BTW we went through the paper filers every 200-400 g and the expensive carbon one about every 6 m using a spectra Cape Horn extreme didnt wash them The Clark pump and Z ion on it make it a great system for sailboats. Didn’t need the northern lights to run it. With the daytime trades and tropical sun if on the boat all day would turn it on in the morning.off come evening. That was enough for all our needs with no water use restrictions . Ran it twice a week.
This Sea recovery back flushes automatically weekly. Will see what usage is and then decide about pickling or decommissioning entirely.
If I was a east coast boater and had a decent size tank and went port to port agree it’s another thing to maintain and not worth it. If I only came in for food regardless of cruising grounds then it a game changer.
Most power boats have AC gensets and they’re on more frequently than sailboats. In that case a high output AC watermaker makes more sense imho. If going DC would definitely pick the Cape Horn extreme again. No electronics, most efficient quiet and excellent ppm with no need for maintenance or cleaning chemicals over our 8 years of ownership. If going to,the tropics stock up on SC-1. There’s no place to buy RV potable water antifreeze.

 

[MVDarlin]

With 800 gallons you won't need a watermaker. To keep wife happy install a 100 gallon "reserve" bladder someplace and transfer pump.

 

[garychurch]

800 Gallons for the two of you? Sounds plenty for some extended cruising. If you were in the Bahamas or Caribbean where water may be scarce and you’d pay $0.50 a gallon a water maker may be worth the cost and hassle but it’s just one more thing to maintain and no doubt occasionally repair.

 

[Rick Hudson]

I wrote an article on watermakers in the Oct 2020 edition of Pacific Yachting that you might find useful. Although I caution I was at the other end of the spectrum - little space and limited budget. That said, there are a number of observations that you might find handy.

https://www.pacificyachting.com/water-water-everywhere/

 

[amapola]

If we carried 800 gallons, we wouldn't need a watermaker. We carry 200 gallons and can go a month if we conserve. The watermaker is great in the Bahamas or Caribbean but we don't use it in the ICW from Florida to the Chesapeake Bay.

 

[RickyD]

Now have a AC Sea recovery on this boat. Membrane was removed and stored on land. Second owner used RO but third not at all hence it was decommissioned. I’m restoring it to running condition. Any tricks of the trade I should know about? Has two large commercial prefilters which is a new wrinkle for me.
BTW we went through the paper filers every 200-400 g and the expensive carbon one about every 6 m using a spectra Cape Horn extreme didnt wash them The Clark pump and Z ion on it make it a great system for sailboats. Didn’t need the northern lights to run it. With the daytime trades and tropical sun if on the boat all day would turn it on in the morning.off come evening. That was enough for all our needs with no water use restrictions . Ran it twice a week.
This Sea recovery back flushes automatically weekly. Will see what usage is and then decide about pickling or decommissioning entirely.
If I was a east coast boater and had a decent size tank and went port to port agree it’s another thing to maintain and not worth it. If I only came in for food regardless of cruising grounds then it a game changer.
Most power boats have AC gensets and they’re on more frequently than sailboats. In that case a high output AC watermaker makes more sense imho. If going DC would definitely pick the Cape Horn extreme again. No electronics, most efficient quiet and excellent ppm with no need for maintenance or cleaning chemicals over our 8 years of ownership. If going to,the tropics stock up on SC-1. There’s no place to buy RV potable water antifreeze.

Hey Hippo...(sorry, I couldn't help myself)... I also have Sea Recovery. Mine is quite old. PO did not use. I recommissioned it and use it regularly. I have the fresh water flush option with a carbon filter to take out the Chlorine. I try to flush once a week but probably average once every 2.5 weeks. I have never pickled. I have an intake strainer, very large silt pre-filter, then a large oil pre-filter, before getting into the unit. It is a 600 gal. per day set up with three membranes. My boat is supposed to carry 200 gals. of water but the old tank was removed. I believe it probably holds more like 160 now. With 3 showers and washing machine we can go through water faster than I could have imagined. I need a water maker. I mostly use filtered dock water but I try to run this system frequently to keep it in shape. My Sea Recovery dealer is in San Diego and it is not cost effective to have them work on it but I do call and ask questions now and then. Very nice people. It has an LED system to indicate the quality of the water and the product must meet minimum standards to allow flow into the water tanks. I have a remote control panel in the galley and can also control from the engine room. Now that I understand it, I like it. I just don't have an easy set up for pickling or membrane cleaning. One of these days.......

 

[Hippocampus]

Still trying not figure this one out. Does automatically back flush weekly. But I don’t understand how to pickle it. There’s really two issues with water.
One, water to drink and cook with. In short for ingestion.
Two, everything else.

For everything else I’m not too fussy. Almost any shore water will serve. But for ingestion there’s a major variation depending upon the local municipal supply. This boat has a significant filtration system. Would definitely have such a system particularly if dependent upon shore water even if only in North America or Europe.

 

[OldDan1943]

One, water to drink and cook with. In short for ingestion.
Two, everything else.

The water produced from the water maker is "one flavor". In other words, the water produced is good for #1 and #2.

 

[RickyD]

Still trying not figure this one out. Does automatically back flush weekly. But I don’t understand how to pickle it. There’s really two issues with water.
One, water to drink and cook with. In short for ingestion.
Two, everything else.

For everything else I’m not too fussy. Almost any shore water will serve. But for ingestion there’s a major variation depending upon the local municipal supply. This boat has a significant filtration system. Would definitely have such a system particularly if dependent upon shore water even if only in North America or Europe.

For pickling, there is some chemistry needed. If you are making good water it is almost like distilled, you can use that product to fill a 5 gallon bucket, though you may need two. Mix the chemistry, pickling stuff, and run it through your system in a closed loop, not out the thru-hull. Once properly “pickled” you can leave it for months I believe. My system was pickled when I started to use it and the 2004 membranes were still good. It had not been used in 2.5 years before me.

 

[socalrider]

For pickling, there is some chemistry needed. If you are making good water it is almost like distilled, you can use that product to fill a 5 gallon bucket, though you may need two. Mix the chemistry, pickling stuff, and run it through your system in a closed loop, not out the thru-hull. Once properly “pickled” you can leave it for months I believe. My system was pickled when I started to use it and the 2004 membranes were still good. It had not been used in 2.5 years before me.

Yeah you need a pickling solution - propylene glycol (not ethylene glycol!) works, but best to consult your manual and follow the procedure precisely. Like most things watermaker, it's not super complicated but you have to do it correctly. Basically you're preserving the membrane in a solution that inhibits growth of any bugs; you can keep it pickled for a year or more, then flush the pickling solution out & go back to making water.

 

[Hippocampus]

We used SC-1 packets in the spectra. it took 15 minutes to pickle and was easy. Could use the RV 100 pink stuff for domestic water but it unavailable in the islands as there’s no winters and few RVs. The packets took up very little room so I preferred them as well. However if I was coastal in the US would use the 100 stuff. It’s cheaper and good for a year. SC-1 is good for 6 months from what I remember. Both are cidal but 50 isn’t. You need undiluted 100.
My comment was aimed at SeaRecovery systems which are new to me.
Of course RO water can be used for anything. Problem is it taste flat as there little or no minerals in it and very little dissolved gasses. There’s packets predesigned to give you the minerals you need for health you can throw in when you are living for a long time exclusively on RO water. Usually for most cruisers you get enough what docs call “free water” from your food and shore bought drinks it’s not an issue. However, if we were living on the hook for several weeks we did add those mineral supplements. The absence of minerals seems to be more of a problem with the huge land based desalination plants supplying domestic water to towns. I think now they routinely add them at the plant. I don’t know much about that other than knowing you need to be concerned about the absence of minerals required for health if you’re on exclusive RO water.

 

[ksanders]

Still trying not figure this one out. Does automatically back flush weekly. But I don’t understand how to pickle it. There’s really two issues with water.
One, water to drink and cook with. In short for ingestion.
Two, everything else.

For everything else I’m not too fussy. Almost any shore water will serve. But for ingestion there’s a major variation depending upon the local municipal supply. This boat has a significant filtration system. Would definitely have such a system particularly if dependent upon shore water even if only in North America or Europe.

first I never back flush. I use my watermaker almost daily. Backflushing is easy though as a short term solution to avoid areboic bacteria from forming when your watermaker is dormant for short periods of time.

When i leave the boat for any length of time i pickle it. Pickling is far more reliable than backflushing and is really easy. The process takes less than 5 minutes.

To pickle...

Measure about three tablespoons of "pickling powder" (which is simply a product known as Sodium Metabisulfite and is sold on Amazon) in a gallon jug.

Then I fill that jug with water and stir to disolve.

Then I turn the valve on my watermaker to "pickle", put the "pickle hose" in the jug and turn on the low pressure pump.

The liquid sucks out of the jug and that is it. Done deal.

Too many people make way too big a deal out of pickling a watermaker because they have not done it.

 

[Hippocampus]

That’s been my practice as well Kevin. Except would have pickle solution recycle through the machine for ~10 minutes. Both draw and return placed in that bucket.
Machine is new to me. No manual on board. Don’t sure which valve and where. Machine is a SeaRecovery. What’s yours?

 

[ronobrien]

I will be installing a WM on my GB when the refit is done. I have looked on Youtube and seen several systems built by the owners. I am probably going to go that route as I have sufficient experience as a marine mechanic. This obviously depends on your own skills. I am going this way because all of the systems available on the market rely on electronic control boards. One little issue and your system might be out of commission. I want something that I built and therefore know intimately. I also don't want any electronics to fail. These systems are also much less expensive than the prepackaged ones. The components seem to be the same as used in the commercial systems. I will just have to devise a manual control set up. If for nothing else, the Youtube videos are interesting to learn the inner working of a WM.

 

[OldDan1943]

A water maker is not needed until you need it.

 

[socalrider]

I will be installing a WM on my GB when the refit is done. I have looked on Youtube and seen several systems built by the owners. I am probably going to go that route as I have sufficient experience as a marine mechanic. This obviously depends on your own skills. I am going this way because all of the systems available on the market rely on electronic control boards. One little issue and your system might be out of commission. I want something that I built and therefore know intimately. I also don't want any electronics to fail. These systems are also much less expensive than the prepackaged ones. The components seem to be the same as used in the commercial systems. I will just have to devise a manual control set up. If for nothing else, the Youtube videos are interesting to learn the inner working of a WM.

I agree it's good to get a fundamental understanding. There are systems available without electronic controls - all the Spectra units (I think) have two options & my Spectra Ventura 200T is fully manual for the reasons you give. The Cruise RO systems are manual as well if you want the lower cost 120V system for use off a generator - they're basically DIY systems using off-the-shelf components, but with the components hand-picked by someone who's done this a million times and is available on the phone if needed, sold at a ~$500 premium.

 

[ronobrien]

I agree it's good to get a fundamental understanding. There are systems available without electronic controls - all the Spectra units (I think) have two options & my Spectra Ventura 200T is fully manual for the reasons you give. The Cruise RO systems are manual as well if you want the lower cost 120V system for use off a generator - they're basically DIY systems using off-the-shelf components, but with the components hand-picked by someone who's done this a million times and is available on the phone if needed, sold at a ~$500 premium.

I hadn't seen any W/O electronic control. Good to know. Thanks for the info.

 

[TheBigWhit]

A couple comments that might clear up some questions.

1) Your body can't absorb minerals from water so having minerals in your drinking water does nothing for your health. This may sound controversial but its a fact. Water in the body is used to maintain electrolytic balance of your electrical system and flush your kidneys of waste. The purer the water the higher the osmotic pressure thru your kidneys flushing more contaminants.

2) There are two types of sterilizing or pickling.
Short term and long term/anti-freeze. Short term is typically good for several months provided all valves are closed in your system and no air is allowed to enter. Ambient temperature has a major influence with cooler temperatures (-70F) being better for short term sterilizing. The short term chemical approved by all membrane manufacturers is sodium meta-bisulfite (SBS). Mix a tablespoon into 5 gallons of RO product water in a bucket and recirculate for 10-15 minutes then close all valves.
Long term and freezing temperature sterilizing is done by mixing a tablespoon full of SBS into a glass of warm water so that it dissolves. Then mix the liquid SBS into one gallon of USP grade glycerin. Mix this solution into 4 gallons of RO water and recirculate for 15-20 minutes or until the water gets aroun 90 degrees F. Close all valve and you are good down to around -10F. For colder storage there are other techniques.

We found that the glycerin/SBS mixture lasted for 3-4 years in systems that remained sealed. The SBS is an oxygen scavenger and when combined with glycerin it stops all aerobic and anerobic growth. Open a valve for just a moment allowing air in and the membranes will start to grow biology and cause a foul smell in the product water when you re-start the unit.

Fresh water (RO product) flush is a wise practice for any RO shut down for more than a day or two in tropical conditions. Colder water in the NW will allow you to go for 3-4 days without issue. After that corrosion starts on metal components and bacterial growth starts on the membranes.

The numbers above are meant for average marine sized RO units in the 200-1500 gpd range (2.5" membranes). Larger units (4" membranes) require more chemical and solution mixing size due to amount of water contained in the unit.

Hope this info helps out.

Whitney

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

A water maker is not needed until you need it.

How true!!! Crusty taught me that line of thinking.

 

[trawlercap]

“Everything is ok, as long as everything’s ok.” I used this to temper my “gun ho” working in the Bering Sea. Example: “why are you charging into this lousy weather with a gen set down?”