water ballast

[troutbridge]

Hi, I have a Eurobanker 28 made in Denmark in 1978 there is a holding/ ballast tank at the foreword half of the vessel under the soul floor it holds 22gal water it runs from the engine room bulkhead amidships to the bow locker . A previous owner installed a bowthruster and the bottom of the bow locker has been opened to accommodate it so water was slopping about ,does anybody know if this is a water ballast tank as when emptied the boat was a bit lively ,if you can help thank you very much as I do not want to go to sea like this . Dave

 

[Larry M]

I'd say no. 22 gallons of water only weighs ~183 lbs. Are there any hoses coming or going or a vent.

 

[Al]

I'd say no. 22 gallons of water only weighs ~183 lbs. Are there any hoses coming or going or a vent.

To the contrary, 128# in a 28 foot boat has a large impact. Our boat is 28 feet and mentioned in several past threads/post, we added a total 1400# of lead ingots to the already 1500# located internally of the keel at build. We did this to accomplish what the OP indicated 'Lively' action. In our case we lay 800# of the 1400# directly over the keel under the engine bed. We then added 400# toward the aft of the reduction gear split on each side. The remainder we used as adjustment factor. We purposely went out in fairly challenging water to see what different positioning of the remainder would reflect. The end result that gave the best sea kindness was placing one ingot [50#]under the anchor chain/rope. The next 50# is located under the forward bunks at the V. The last 100# was added to midship forward of the engine on either side of the engine bed stringers.
Prior to this placement, the boat would 'Hobby Horse" to a greater degree until the 200# was located, now we beat into head seas. I will also mention that with this weight in total, the boat as small as it is, rides vertical over wake waves, extremely less rolling there and in beam seas, head seas in any quadrant is as a larger boat in terms of reaction. Following seas remain the weak sector as it is with most square stern boats, yet even here there is a improvement to our mind.
If the tank is not a dedicated holding tank then is there one on the boat? If not the tank is for that purpose. If there is a different tank then the thought of using this as an adjustment for ballast holds merit.

Al-Ketchikan

 

[troutbridge]

To the contrary, 128# in a 28 foot boat has a large impact. Our boat is 28 feet and mentioned in several past threads/post, we added a total 1400# of lead ingots to the already 1500# located internally of the keel at build. We did this to accomplish what the OP indicated 'Lively' action. In our case we lay 800# of the 1400# directly over the keel under the engine bed. We then added 400# toward the aft of the reduction gear split on each side. The remainder we used as adjustment factor. We purposely went out in fairly challenging water to see what different positioning of the remainder would reflect. The end result that gave the best sea kindness was placing one ingot [50#]under the anchor chain/rope. The next 50# is located under the forward bunks at the V. The last 100# was added to midship forward of the engine on either side of the engine bed stringers.
Prior to this placement, the boat would 'Hobby Horse" to a greater degree until the 200# was located, now we beat into head seas. I will also mention that with this weight in total, the boat as small as it is, rides vertical over wake waves, extremely less rolling there and in beam seas, head seas in any quadrant is as a larger boat in terms of reaction. Following seas remain the weak sector as it is with most square stern boats, yet even here there is a improvement to our mind.
If the tank is not a dedicated holding tank then is there one on the boat? If not the tank is for that purpose. If there is a different tank then the thought of using this as an adjustment for ballast holds merit.

Al-Ketchikan

The tank does not have any pipes connected to it and the shower sump is separate , the only holding tank is a rubber black waste tank at the stern port quarter in the lazarette below the stern deck . Blow the helm amid ship is the ford Lehman 80 hp engine and on each side of that are fresh water tanks 2 x 130 ltr (28.596 gal )to port and 2 x 130 ltr stbd , aft of the gearbox a fuel tank of 681.913 ltr (150 gal ) is fitted . I am trying to find out more about this vessel type Eurobanker 28 flybridge sedan made in Denmark ,the boat weights about 6 ton imp.

 

[eyschulman]

From the posted picture of the boat it looks like a lot of superstructure for a 28 foot boat if also a round bottom and relatively narrow beam I would expect a lot of roll. Some standard remedies would include flopper stoppers-anti roll fins added to hull and a riding sail of proper size and location. The ultimate remedy would be a small gyroscope anti roll unit now being marketed for small boats.

 

[Al]

From the posted picture of the boat it looks like a lot of superstructure for a 28 foot boat if also a round bottom and relatively narrow beam I would expect a lot of roll. Some standard remedies would include flopper stoppers-anti roll fins added to hull and a riding sail of proper size and location. The ultimate remedy would be a small gyroscope anti roll unit now being marketed for small boats.

Hi Eyschulman- Been a while to share a post

Here is a site that shows a sister boat to ours, Maybe Troutbridge will respond after viewing what our hull appears. He is wider than our boat by a foot at least..condition we experienced on purchase. Until we added the mentioned weight of 1400# deployed as described, the boat was a total disaster for weather. Like 15 knt, 2 foot seas would have you wondering why you left port and hoping to make it back. Roll like a barrel, hobby horse like crazy and on a following sea, you could not keep the wheel steady, turning from stop to stop anticipating every aft wave. It was horrid, Of course on the day of purchase in a distant location, the water was flat clam!! Not until home did the weakness show up and now confirms why the boat was not well used over the years and probably more owners than normal.
After the weight addition, the boat now rides so perfect for the size. Impresses those who ride. Facing yet not any favorite, 2 foot seas to about 4 foot is now a breeze from any quardrant. Even astern waves do not offend the spirit as one can maintain with a minimum of activity on the wheel.
Nice to hear from you,

http://albin.boats.com/listing/gall...othouse-Pocket-Cruiser/113648551?r=113648551&

Al-Ketchikan

 

[troutbridge]

Valiant has a top speed of 10 knots ,cruising speed of 7 knots . Im beginning to think that because the vessel was produced in Holland it had to be designed to take their seas ,so fitted a water ballast tank over the keel . With the ballast in the boat is about 6 imp ton .

 

[eyschulman]

Hi Eyschulman- Been a while to share a post

Here is a site that shows a sister boat to ours, Maybe Troutbridge will respond after viewing what our hull appears. He is wider than our boat by a foot at least..condition we experienced on purchase. Until we added the mentioned weight of 1400# deployed as described, the boat was a total disaster for weather. Like 15 knt, 2 foot seas would have you wondering why you left port and hoping to make it back. Roll like a barrel, hobby horse like crazy and on a following sea, you could not keep the wheel steady, turning from stop to stop anticipating every aft wave. It was horrid, Of course on the day of purchase in a distant location, the water was flat clam!! Not until home did the weakness show up and now confirms why the boat was not well used over the years and probably more owners than normal.
After the weight addition, the boat now rides so perfect for the size. Impresses those who ride. Facing yet not any favorite, 2 foot seas to about 4 foot is now a breeze from any quardrant. Even astern waves do not offend the spirit as one can maintain with a minimum of activity on the wheel.
Nice to hear from you,

1978 Marben Flybridge Trawler Pilothouse Pocket Cruiser Title

Al-Ketchikan

Yes I omitted extra ballast in my remedies my bad. I have a automatic tendency to favor light craft just a personal thing. I have rarely experienced a really heavy boat's ride. The one time I got caught in some nasty stuff just north of San Diago in a heavy sail boat we had to turn tail because we could not make adequate way through the waves the ride while not dangerous was not all that comfortable. Another heavy a 10 meter sail boat just cut through the stuff. I was in a 32 foot fat heavy. I take away from that experience not all heavy displacement craft are created equal. All my personal sail and power craft including a 40 ft Pilgrim trawler were on the light or medium side of the equation. I have heard and read that heavy craft can ride well when properly designed. Glad to hear that the extra ballast made a good easy solution.

 

[MartySchwartz]

The tank does not have any pipes connected to it and the shower sump is separate , the only holding tank is a rubber black waste tank at the stern port quarter in the lazarette below the stern deck . Blow the helm amid ship is the ford Lehman 80 hp engine and on each side of that are fresh water tanks 2 x 130 ltr (28.596 gal )to port and 2 x 130 ltr stbd , aft of the gearbox a fuel tank of 681.913 ltr (150 gal ) is fitted . I am trying to find out more about this vessel type Eurobanker 28 flybridge sedan made in Denmark ,the boat weights about 6 ton imp.

So no hoses or fittings at all on that tank? That would mean there was no way to fill it with water so I would guess that it could be flotation then.

Marty...................

 

[Al]

. All my personal sail and power craft including a 40 ft Pilgrim trawler were on the light or medium side of the equation..

Of the several "Lust For" boats in my mind are the Pilgrim and the Lord Nelson.

As I study the lines and listen to the stories, I come to the conclusion that had I obtained either, I would address the shallowness of the draft to the total dimensions with the thought of adding ballast much in the manner although perhaps not the percentage of weight, that I applied to our boat. It is unbelievable the difference the deep weight makes to the sea motions.

I recall my days on a real tugs where the fuel capacity was such that with full tanks fuel and water, the ride was just wonderful when in modest to somewhat heavy water. The rig just drove through the seas with no regard for reactions such as our light craft exhibit . Ballast in a common sense increment installation proved a winner for us .

Al-Ketchikan

 

[Islanddreamer]

Wouldn't water ballast need to be baffled? I can imagine that a live load could be a deterrent. Didn't some older trawlers use iron ore for ballast?

Also- where would you get lead pigs?

 

[Phil Fill]

Not many plrasure boats have water ballast, its more of a commercial, navy long range. As fuel supplies are used water its replaced with water for stability. If the eagle attempted as ocean crossing depending on condition I would pump water into tanks for stability as it has a third mid fuel tank we don't use. The tank does have baffles.

The eagle hull keel is filled with concrete for ballast. My wife and I have talked about buying silver gold is use as balast retirement. Still might.

 

[Al]

Wouldn't water ballast need to be baffled? I can imagine that a live load could be a deterrent. Didn't some older trawlers use iron ore for ballast?

Also- where would you get lead pigs?

Good point on baffles, should have remembered and mentioned. The size of the tank in discussion would have at least one regardess if designed as a ballast tank or holding. It would be helpful if the poster receives confirmation on the tank design and offical dedicated use. Often questions are posted, and final solutions are not shared leaving the contributors in a flux.

We obtained our ingots from a commercial fisherman who obtained 'Used Lead" from a salvage metal source. I can not recall from our conversations if he obtain in ingot form or he performed the melting.

I had during my seeking of this level of ballast, thought to gather up much of the abandoned removed zinks from the local boat grid and yard locations and melt these bits and pieces of zinks using bread pans as molds. Not sure they would hold up for many melts ya or nay.

In 50+-# ingots they place well and are relatively easy to handle.

Al-Ketchikan

 

[Al]

The eagle hull keel is filled with concrete for ballast. My wife and I have talked about buying silver gold is use as ballast retirement. Still might.

 

[JLD]

I won't be much help as I'm kinda new to this, but are you sure it only holds 22 gallons?

There are some small, trailerable sailboats, like the MacGregor 26 that are water ballasted. The MacGregor 26 holds about 1150 lbs (about 132 gallons) of water in ballast.

The thinking for water ballast in this case is that you can drain the water ballast when the boat is taken out of the water and placed back on the trailer and that is 1/2 ton less boat you are pulling around.

Jim

 

[eyschulman]

Of the several "Lust For" boats in my mind are the Pilgrim and the Lord Nelson.

As I study the lines and listen to the stories, I come to the conclusion that had I obtained either, I would address the shallowness of the draft to the total dimensions with the thought of adding ballast much in the manner although perhaps not the percentage of weight, that I applied to our boat. It is unbelievable the difference the deep weight makes to the sea motions.

I recall my days on a real tugs where the fuel capacity was such that with full tanks fuel and water, the ride was just wonderful when in modest to somewhat heavy water. The rig just drove through the seas with no regard for reactions such as our light craft exhibit . Ballast in a common sense increment installation proved a winner for us .

Al-Ketchikan

My experience with the pilgrim is such that I do not consider it a good open water boat and the designer builder told me so. If I owned it in the PNW I would deepen the keel and put some form of roll stabilization on the boat probably a gyroscopic system. It would still not be an open water boat but much more comfortable.

 

[brian eiland]

Roll Stabilizing using Ballast

I was just searching thru the forum for subject threads dealing with roll stabilization utilizing ballast. Found this one and some interesting contributors. I'll soon decide on whether to start a new thread of add to this one.

 

[CDreamer]

The McGregor water ballast works a little differently than a power vessel because sailboats "heel" - when the boat heels the tank of water on the high side is above the surrounding water surface. As stated above, draining the tanks does lighten the boat for trailering.
But McGregors other claim to fame is that they can be run like an outboard. Drop the sails, empty the tanks and go 20+ knots.

 

[boatpoker]

From the posted picture of the boat it looks like a lot of superstructure for a 28 foot boat if also a round bottom and relatively narrow beam I would expect a lot of roll. Some standard remedies would include flopper stoppers-anti roll fins added to hull and a riding sail of proper size and location. The ultimate remedy would be a small gyroscope anti roll unit now being marketed for small boats.

$35,000 for the gryo, another $10,000 for the installation probably more than the boat is worth and where would you find the 7cu.ft of space required in a 28' boat ?

Paravanes (flopper stoppers), you'd have to rebuild the hull to take the additional loads.

Riding sail, way too small a boat to put on a mast high enough to get the square footage required for what is almost always a negligible effect.

Fins, bat wing fins might help but I wouldn't try that without a design by an NA.

 

[OldDan1943]

Submarines do a lot of water ballasting down. SMIRK

The key, in my feeble mind, is you don't want the ballast sloshing around. On a small boat, if you don't fully ballast down, you have your ballast aka center of gravity, changing. Fill the ballast tank or keep it empty, no half way. Large car carrier have been known to have the load shift during a storm and that does cause significant problems. The navy sometime ballasts down by replacing the used fuel with sea water as a storm approaches. Ballasting down is a serious decision. Trust me, ballasting down REALLY pisses off the personnel in the boiler room. They have to be extra careful with the fuel oil separators and checking the fuel for residual water.
So if one is going to ballast down on a small boat, find a calm spot, fill it all the way, venting the tank of all air inboard so you know when you are full up. You may even want to vent it again once the boat rocks a bit. The key is to keep the tank totally full.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. OD. You have noted the most important aspect of water ballast. Full or empty. No in-between. FSE... What is Free Surface Effect | Marine Notes

 

[OldDan1943]

Greetings,
Mr. OD. You have noted the most important aspect of water ballast. Full or empty. No in-between. FSE... What is Free Surface Effect | Marine Notes

I am ex sub sailor so I know these things.

 

[RT Firefly]

 

[GoneFarrell]

Also- where would you get lead pigs?

Here's one place to get them....
https://www.rotometals.com/cut-in-half-lead-pig-ingot-58-62-pounds-99-9-with-freight-included/

I have some lead downriggers for ballast forward that offset the increased weight of the diesel aft (it was remotored in '07).

Also known as an Alaskan sleeping pill....
https://www.fisheriessupply.com/lead-weight-round-lead-weights-fishing-anchor-rode-sentinel

And you guys with distributed ballast are right on. Engineer-speak, the effect on moment of inertia is squared with distance from the center of gravity/mass.

 

[brian eiland]

Halsey's Typhoon

Seems as though there are several threads on this subject of ballast, and this other one has a greater number of postings. So I thought I dupplicate this posting over here:
Trawler Forum - View Single Post - Ballast?

Halsey's Typhoon
While on vacation this summer I was given a book to read by an old friend.
The book:
Halsey's Typhoon
What a GREAT book!!

some excerpts

synopses
"Describes how, at the height of World War II in the Pacific Theater, Admiral William "Bull" Halsey unwittingly sailed his undefeated Third Fleet into the heart of a powerful typhoon while supporting General Douglas MacArthur's invasion of the Philippines, a destructive act of nature that devastated the fleet and inflicted untold damage and loss of life."

One item that becomes apparent is how a number of the destroyers and destroyer escorts succumbed to the seas due to extremely low fuel loads (lots of trouble refueling at sea due to the bad weather), and the addition of lots of new hardware (radars, etc) to their upper superstructures.....lost of some of the stability they had been designed to originally.

GREAT book and story

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Similar... https://www.damninteresting.com/the-fall-of-the-eastland/

 

[Lepke]

Years ago there was a maker of an anti roll system for commercial boats the was basically 2 tanks on opposite sides that restricted flow between them. Don't know if they're still around. Probably too big for yachts unless you could utilize existing tanks.

 

[RichieBoat]

Hi, I have a Eurobanker 28 made in Denmark in 1978 there is a holding/ ballast tank at the foreword half of the vessel under the soul floor it holds 22gal water it runs from the engine room bulkhead amidships to the bow locker . A previous owner installed a bowthruster and the bottom of the bow locker has been opened to accommodate it so water was slopping about ,does anybody know if this is a water ballast tank as when emptied the boat was a bit lively ,if you can help thank you very much as I do not want to go to sea like this . Dave

Hi
If there are no hoses or vents how did you empty it and re fill it to measure how much it holds?
Did you ever get it sorted ?