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Old 05-05-2022, 09:58 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Iggy View Post
I bought TZ Navigator last December. On Feb, 17th I added C-Map to it for $250. Now C-Map for your MFD is not the same format so its treated as two different products. A little disappointed but OK.

On May 3rd I receive an e-mail that C-Map for Navigator has been updated. Unlike Garmin and C-Map for your MFD, there is no free update within the first year or next update. They will only give you a free update within 30 days! But C-Map did send me a free update for my MFD! That was good and I bought that last year.

TZ did offer 50% off to update their map. If your thinking of updating ask when the next update will be released. In may case, I don't even have my boat in the water yet and if I want to update the maps I must pay for it and I already spent $1000 within the last 4 months on the software.

Just to add, I am not trying to put them down. Just buyer beware! Their tech support has been great. A big help for me in setting up the software for my boat.

Just for clarification garmin does not give a free update. I found this out last month.
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Old 05-06-2022, 06:14 AM   #22
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Chris:

Since I'm not an owner of it, I am researching online and talking to dealers at shows. Set me straight if I don't have this right.

Furuno has 3 layers to the package. Hardware is Furuno. Then you have to buy / subscribe to TZ. Then you get charts. Any other option is 2 layers. I just don't get it on an expensive electronics package where you have to subscribe to 3rd party software to use the electronics.

Charts. Seems no one has ALL of the charts options. Part of what I'm trying to get a grip on is WHAT charts do I want. Yeah, all of them can deliver NOAA vector and rastor charts, so having that is no differentiator between MFD brands. But what do I want? You have pretty (which is in the eye of the beholder) but that's not my deal. This is an issue we have danced around earlier in this thread. Stuff can look pretty, stuff can look detailed, but is it ACCURATE? And it seems stuff can be great in one area and get you into trouble elsewhere. The perfect package seems not to exist, so options to bail out to something else seems important, if it seems right to do. Brands are backing into corners on that score.

NOAA charts are fine and in fact preferable in deeper open waters. Less clutter. But you are on the Chesapeake and you know a lot of anchorages have thin water and can be tricky. Open up a NOAA chart on some place like Fairlee Creek (Eastern Shore, Kent County, on the Bay north of the Chester River mouth). A NOAA chart won't get you in there safely. Now go online to the Navionics site and look at the detail, and that's much better. Now do the same thing with C-map. Both have more detail, but a bit different. Which is right? Cmor doesn't show its maps, so one can't judge it.

All the time I see people say they run something like NOAA charts on the MFD but have something like Aquamaps up on an iPad next to it. If you are running an older MFD and that's a solution to keep things working, that's great. If I am about to spend $35k on an electronics package and I have to have an iPad or laptop to make things work well on a brand new system, well that's pretty much a BS situation.

That's my quandary. Set me straight. Please. The dealers can't. They say that's pretty much true, and so just pick your poison.

We are talking Furuno at the moment. Simrad has its own issues. Garmin has its own issues. Rest assured I'm not picking on Furuno.

Well first, my previous Furuno equipment was NavNET 3D, installed in 2009... and my copy of TZ on the computers is v2.x from back then too... so things may have changed.

But I just go to this link and download charts, the free ones in our case (NOAA raster and vector, 3D, sat photos, bathymetric, fishing, etc.):

https://www.furunousa.com/en/products/gps_and_chart_plotters/browse?filter=Discontinued.eq.false&group={CFBDF65 2-0102-4A61-9835-CF99FD2D0A6F}&groupName=Charts%20for%20NavNet%203D ,%20TZtouch,%20TZtouch2%20and%20TZtouch3

Or if that doesn't work for you, go here https://www.furunousa.com/en/product...chart_plotters and then choose the Charts option.

Each download installs on both computers (TZ) and on the MFD (Furuno).

Yes, Fairlee Creek is tricky. The first local knowledge we had for entering was "drive the bow up on the beach, turn left 90°, drive the bow up on the beach, turn right 90°, power through the cut, E Voila!"

Yes, the NOAA raster and vector charts only show minimal detail. OTOH, I just checked not-up-to-date C-Map vector charts in their older Plan2Nav app, up-to-date vector charts in Wartsila's iSailor app, and up-to-date vector charts in Aqua Map... and all of those vector charts are all pretty much identical with the NOAA vector chart. I suspect if I checked the Garmin charts on the boat... same same (and if I remember, I'll do that next time on onboard and let you know if I'm wrong).

I think part of the point is that no chart will get you into Fairlee Creek safely without some luck; best to have some local knowledge to have a clue. For that particular place. And for others with similar issues (some inlets, for example).

We do use tablet apps, but that's about the charts only in one instance... otherwise, it's mostly for hot backup of the main MFD craps out*... but mostly for convenience... so crew can be wandering around the boat or sitting out of MFD view and still see/pay attention to where we are and where we're going.

(* PC with TZ, two laptops, two phones... lots of layers of back-up on board... never had an MFD failure yet...)

Aqua Map is indeed the slight exception to that; they also offer an inexpensive in-app purchase for "recent" (last 3 years) USACE survey data and that is specifically useful for traveling along some places in the AICW. That said, many just follow the ATONs with no problem... so it's not like this extra info is critical, especially for relatively shallow draft vessels and for navigators who can read the tide charts.

Garmin charges ($99, IIRC) for our vector chart update; I suspect that's an annual update, don't know yet. Haven't done this year yet. I don't notice their charts being any better, or even much different, than the NOAA vector charts.

We get our new Furuno TZT3 16" MFD installed next week. I've been assuming the newer MFDs use the same charts as the older units (that link above seems to confirm), but I''ll know more about that when the smoke clears.

-Chris
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Old 05-06-2022, 06:34 AM   #23
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Chris:

What I have been using to compare things from a desktop investigation is this:

https://webapp.navionics.com/?lang=e...%7BqtnFf%7BbpM


And this:

https://www.c-map.com/chartexplorer/

Look at Fairlee, which I am just using as a comparison example point for something I know to be tricky.

The NOAA charts tell you pretty much nothing. The Cmap really not much more, giving no indication of where the channel is. The Navionics shows you what you need to do, and where the advice to put your starboard side against the beach is premature.
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Old 05-06-2022, 07:08 AM   #24
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FWT - where do you suppose Navionics or CMAP get their update data from?

Here is a brief description of NOAA source data for ENCs. How does Navionics reliably improve on this?

Frankly, I can think of a couple small inlets with privately maintained ATONs on the Florida Gulf Coast where eChart (MFD or tablet, NOAA ENC or Navionics) is incomplete, misleading, or simply wrong. There's only one thing worse than no data (ENC), and that's incorrect data (CMAP).

Honestly, I think this level of granularity is beyond the reasonable accuracy of a universal chart. Using a chartplotter to enter a small and tricky private channel means the chart is over-zoomed. Sometimes it will be correct. Sometimes it won't. It's not how charts are intended to be used.

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Old 05-06-2022, 07:12 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FWT View Post
Chris:

What I have been using to compare things from a desktop investigation is this:

https://webapp.navionics.com/?lang=e...%7BqtnFf%7BbpM

And this:

https://www.c-map.com/chartexplorer/

Look at Fairlee, which I am just using as a comparison example point for something I know to be tricky.

The NOAA charts tell you pretty much nothing. The Cmap really not much more, giving no indication of where the channel is. The Navionics shows you what you need to do, and where the advice to put your starboard side against the beach is premature.

Not sure I understand your point about those links.

The Navionics chart I see at that link looks exactly like the NOAA vector, older C-Map, new iSailor, and new Aqua Map vector charts. I don't see any instructions?

The C-Map chart at that link adds contour lines, but otherwise looks the same as the others... and it looks like the contour lines are geometrically applied (versus soundings)... although that's just a guess.

-Chris
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Old 05-06-2022, 07:36 AM   #26
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Not sure I understand your point about those links.



The Navionics chart I see at that link looks exactly like the NOAA vector, older C-Map, new iSailor, and new Aqua Map vector charts. I don't see any instructions?



The C-Map chart at that link adds contour lines, but otherwise looks the same as the others... and it looks like the contour lines are geometrically applied (versus soundings)... although that's just a guess.



-Chris
Pretty sure Navionics interpolates readily available soundings to create contour lines. There is an adjustment in the Navionics settings to define intervals. In my opinion, this is part of the reason I believe operators are given a false sense of data integrity. It looks much, much more accurate than it actually is.

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Old 05-06-2022, 07:47 AM   #27
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Pretty sure Navionics interpolates readily available soundings to create contour lines. There is an adjustment in the Navionics settings to define intervals. In my opinion, this is part of the reason I believe operators are given a false sense of data integrity. It looks much, much more accurate than it actually is.

I didn't see contour lines at the Navionics link FWT posted. Saw contour lines at his C-Map link; they look interpolated.

-Chris
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Old 05-06-2022, 07:58 AM   #28
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There are two Navionics offerings you can switch between: The default (which I presume uses the same data as everyone else) and their Sonar Chart (crowd sourced and unique to Navionics I believe).

I see no great value to their standard offering. I like the Sonar Chart data with the obvious caveats.

The now-removed Navionics option for some Furuno displays was the default, not Sonar Chart.
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Old 05-06-2022, 07:58 AM   #29
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Navionics: bottom left corner click to select SonarChart
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Old 05-06-2022, 08:08 AM   #30
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So for the sonar chart readings (which I believe requires an active subscription), how does Navionics adjust for transduce offset of the contributing vessels? You are talking about using this functions in skinny water. Difference of two feet is meaningful. And that assumes the data is otherwise accurate. And yet the graphic representation to the navigator is identical to a USCG maintained shipping channel - no adjustment for zone-of-confidence factors.

There's a difference between data and information.

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Old 05-06-2022, 08:35 AM   #31
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Navionics: bottom left corner click to select SonarChart

Ah. OK, now I can see Navionics contour lines.

And they're different from the C-Map contour lines.

Hmmm....

But I don't think either shows me anything more useful (for Fairlee Creek) than the NOAA chart.

It's just a place where I'd want to have local knowledge in advance. And the first time, maybe follow someone else in, too. (Although our first time in was just using local instructions, not following someone in... and we didn't ground so it must have been right.)

I think Peter's comments about data control apply: transducer offset? time relative to tide (actual or predicted)? et cetera...

-Chris
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Old 05-06-2022, 11:25 AM   #32
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Ah. OK, now I can see Navionics contour lines.

And they're different from the C-Map contour lines.

Hmmm....



-Chris
And now you see what I have been questioning about accuracy.

More ACCURATE detail is helpful. Inaccurate detail can get you into trouble. No detail? Well at least you know you are blind even though being blind is hardly a good thing.
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Old 05-06-2022, 01:19 PM   #33
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And now you see what I have been questioning about accuracy.

More ACCURATE detail is helpful. Inaccurate detail can get you into trouble. No detail? Well at least you know you are blind even though being blind is hardly a good thing.

Yep, I understand more about what you're seeing now. But I think Peter's got it right: more stuff on the screen doesn't make it accurate, useful, etc.

Consider how many survey boats you see out there being run by Garmin, Navionics, Furuno, -Map, etc... (I'd guess none.)

Consider all the potential technical issues associated with normalizing crows sourced data. (Many.)

Using Fairlee Creek as an example again, what do the Navionics and C-Map contour lines -- which also differ from each other -- add to your knowledge about how to get in and out of there? (For me, not much, if anything.)

I guess I don't see all that much useful difference in charts from the big 4... at least for out typical area. I've read Navionics sucks in the Bahamas, C-Map charts for the Bahamas include the Explorer charts which are very useful, one brand or other (forget which) isn't great off the Australian coast, etc... but for our run-of-the-mill general purposes, they all seem decent enough.

(Except annual NOAA updates are free and Garmin charges $99 for what looks to be essentially the same updates.)

-Chris
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Old 05-06-2022, 02:50 PM   #34
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Just for clarification garmin does not give a free update. I found this out last month.
If they don't that's something new. My experience is that if you buy the chart, say from Defender. You are initialed to one free upgrade. Same goes try in buying one of there MDFs.

Keep in mind that in buying the chart over the counter or in a MFD you don't now how old the chart is.
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Old 05-06-2022, 02:52 PM   #35
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Charts. Seems no one has ALL of the charts options.
On my Raymarine Axioms, I can display NOAA and CHS raster and vector, Raychart vector, Navionics, C-Map, and a few others. Even all at the same time (I think) though I only routinely do 2 at a time.
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Old 05-06-2022, 03:51 PM   #36
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If they don't that's something new. My experience is that if you buy the chart, say from Defender. You are initialed to one free upgrade. Same goes try in buying one of there MDFs.

Keep in mind that in buying the chart over the counter or in a MFD you don't now how old the chart is.

Thats how i thought it was when i bought the vision g3 chart for $350.00.less then a year a new update showed up but if i wanted it i had to buy it. There new policy is they only guaranty the chart based on the purchase date. If you buy a mfd and they come out with a new chart after it will cost you. If the mfd had an old chart loaded at the time you register the unit you can update the unit to the chart version based on the date you purchased the unit.
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Old 05-06-2022, 04:12 PM   #37
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On my Raymarine Axioms, I can display NOAA and CHS raster and vector, Raychart vector, Navionics, C-Map, and a few others. Even all at the same time (I think) though I only routinely do 2 at a time.
Good to know. Thanks for that.
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Old 05-07-2022, 06:33 AM   #38
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If they don't that's something new. My experience is that if you buy the chart, say from Defender. You are initialed to one free upgrade. Same goes try in buying one of there MDFs.

Keep in mind that in buying the chart over the counter or in a MFD you don't now how old the chart is.
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Thats how i thought it was when i bought the vision g3 chart for $350.00.less then a year a new update showed up but if i wanted it i had to buy it. There new policy is they only guaranty the chart based on the purchase date. If you buy a mfd and they come out with a new chart after it will cost you. If the mfd had an old chart loaded at the time you register the unit you can update the unit to the chart version based on the date you purchased the unit.

This boat came with a Garmin 7612xsv, installed probably circa 2016-ish. New versions of both software and charts were available when we got to the boat in June. Software update free. Chart update, $100.

Now there's a newer chart update available. $100.

-Chris
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Old 05-08-2022, 09:17 AM   #39
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This boat came with a Garmin 7612xsv, installed probably circa 2016-ish. New versions of both software and charts were available when we got to the boat in June. Software update free. Chart update, $100.

Now there's a newer chart update available. $100.

-Chris
Sounds right? But has their policy changed? The chart update was more than 50% off than? When you say software, do you mean firmware. Firmware is always free, its the dam charts that cost us $$$.

Garmin as C-Map has always been 50% off on updates. But no more Garmin for me!
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Old 05-08-2022, 10:43 AM   #40
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Sounds right? But has their policy changed? The chart update was more than 50% off than? When you say software, do you mean firmware. Firmware is always free, its the dam charts that cost us $$$.

Garmin as C-Map has always been 50% off on updates. But no more Garmin for me!

I dunno about their policies; we're recent inheritors of the system, so dunno what it was like before.

I said software because it wasn't (I think) BIOS. The process seemed more like updating the operating system. And it wasn't charts, anyway. I think our current system is v20.40 (and I can't find my notes on what the earlier version was).

Our chart update was from G2 to G3 "built-ins". Currently installed is v2021.50.v23.00 (ditto notes on previous version number). My Garmin Express account says there's a G3 update available, but I haven't begun to pay attention to that yet.

-Chris
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