WARNING: Safety issues with Mathers controls

[diver dave]

Most planes we travel in are fly by wire type, the throttle pedal in most cars is electronic, as well as the power steering and the cruise control..... I had mechanical Morses that got jammed, as well as the throttle mechanical cable on a 200 HP outboard (@half speed forward) while docking .... so who will cast the first stone?

You will be shocked with two facts.
1. How much testing faa and sae/auto demands
2. How little testing CG and ABYC etc demands.

 

[rslifkin]

Most planes we travel in are fly by wire type, the throttle pedal in most cars is electronic, as well as the power steering and the cruise control..... I had mechanical Morses that got jammed, as well as the throttle mechanical cable on a 200 HP outboard (@half speed forward) while docking .... so who will cast the first stone?

Nothing wrong with well designed electronic controls. But what I'm getting from the various functional descriptions, problem descriptions, associated failure modes, etc. listed in this thread is that the specific electronic controls in question aren't well designed. In other words, they're nice when they're working, but it doesn't take a whole lot to make them misbehave in potentially dangerous ways.

 

[helm]

I can’t add much other than to say our micro commander controls work flawlessly after 20 years on our Lindell 36, which by the way is all fly by wire, Mathers engine controls and ComNav steering from the stations at the cockpit and fly bridge, with hydraulic steering at the salon station only. The only time we have had an issue is when my wife inadvertently turned off all the DC power while we were running down the fairway out of our slip, I asked her not to do that again.Eric

 

[EngNate]

Wiring and connection integrity between the control head and actuator is critical! The MMC uses an analog control head. A potentiometer is supplied +5V at one end and 0V (neg) at the other. The handle moves the signal tap between the two values, 2.5V at neutral. Any loss of integrity on the 0V will drive the signal toward full ahead and any loss on the 5V will drive it toward full reverse from whatever position it is in. On the signal wire, partial short circuits between it and either the +5V or 0V due to corrosion and its by-products will have the same result. There aren't separate shift and throttle signals, it is handle position - the voltage on one single wire controls both, and anything that messes with it is trouble. Glendinning and Kobelt systems use digital communication. I've come up with three failed Kobelt actuators, two due to internal components not tightened sufficiently. One of these failures nearly did cause a serious 'marine incident'.

I've installed and/or done service calls on a fair number of MMCs, 585's and 9100's, and I only remember one failed actuator. Erratic operation usually is due to a bad control head or wiring, and this most often occurs at weather-exposed stations. These are very, but not totally, weatherproof, and definitely not washdown proof. On outside stations the seal at the control head base is critical.

Power supply issues have been gone over, Whenever one of these suddenly goes to idle & neutral there is a power supply problem. The APS and dual supply is essential for any EEC. There should always be a way of stopping the engine(s) from any control location.

 

[catalinajack]

Last year

Sorry to hear about your control problems, I wanted to clarify any misconceptions about marine electronic engine controls. There are over 100,000+ vessels with the MicroCommanders worldwide (including Navy vessels and Coast Guard Vessels), commercial ships, pleasure craft and others. The MicroCommander is USCG approved, ABS Classed Approved and hold many other marine certifications. These are very reliable controls when installed and maintained properly. These controls have been on the market since 1987 and we have some of those first generation controls still operating in the field today.

The problem you describe could be caused by a couple of different issues. The first is a worn control head, these units are a wearable item and depending on the usage and weather exposure will need to be replaced when they start showing symptoms. The second cause of this problem could be your battery voltage. These units require 12 volts or better to operate properly, if you have low voltage going to them (such as bad batteries, corroded wiring, etc) then that will effect the operation of these units. We require a APS (auto power selector) to be installed with these systems which take battery voltage from two different battery banks and provides constant power to your controls. I have found a lot of installations that did not include these into the system which can be a problem.

The processor (MicroCommander Box in engine room) is the brains of the system, it sends a 5 volt signal up to the control heads which is controlled by a potentiometer in the levers. This pot is a 5k unit that basically cuts the voltage in half and returns it to the MicroCommander, telling it that you want neutral. As you push the handle forward you increase the signal down to the processor telling it you want ahead, continuing to move the lever increases the signal more which then increases the throttle. The same thing happens when you go astern (except voltage decreases) which tells processor to command reverse and throttle as requested.

If your battery voltage drops below the 12 volts then the power going to the control heads could vary as well causing vessel to shift astern, this is why we require a APS to be installed on all systems.

I have seen numerous postings about MMC (now ZF) MicroCommander Problems on Mainships and some other vessels so I thought I would clarify the most common problem I find with the installation of these controls. My company is Control Masters Marine Systems and we are the top US distributor of ZF Mathers Engine Controls. I have been installing and servicing these controls for over 35 years so my back ground is very extensive. I also have these controls on my 50ft motor yacht and they were installed in 2000 operating with no problems.

Also to note that even mechanical, pneumatic and hydraulic control systems can and will fail at some point with depending on use and age.

I posted on this forum (see below) a year or two ago about the problems with MicroCommanders on the Luhrs Mainships and have pasted that below.

Luhrs/Mainship

I installed the first MicroCommanders for Luhrs Mainship at their plant in St. Augustine. These were installed using a 10 amp breaker for each MicroCommander, to power up the MicroCommander you turned on the breaker (simple and safe). When Mainship began installing these units themselves they installed an ignition relay (if your controls power up when you turn on your key or activate the ignition circuit then you have a relay). This relay is the number one issue I have seen and corrected on the Mainships as the relay can fail causing the power to the processors to be lost.

What I do and recommend to all Mainship owners with electronic controls is to rewire the MicroCommanders to 10 amp breakers and eliminate the ignition relay, this will solve about 90% of the control problems on the Mainships.

The other thing to keep in mind is the control head (lever you push to shift and throttle) is a wearable item and over time may need to be replaced. Under normal conditions they will last 15 years or more. Those exposed to the weather may not last as long as it all depends how they were installed.

I have also noted where some believe the MicroCommanders may be causing their engines to shut down. That cannot happen with the MicroCommander as the main things these controls do is provide a neutral safety interlock if you try to start in gear, shift the transmission, increase or decrease throttle, and provide auto synchronization on twin engine vessels. They do not control engine shut down and even if you turned off the power to the controls the engines will keep running.

Last year I followed a Mainship 34 into a lock and witnessed it driving uncontrolled into the lock wall at an angle, bouncing off and into the stern of another boat, bouncing off that and wedging the bow underneath a steel railing. I later learned that the cause was the controls being wired to the bow thruster battery which had been being used thus reducing the voltage and causing the problem.

 

[Raffy]

MicroCommanders

I will agree with the previous poster that spoke about wiring issues on these vessels with electronic controls. The MicroCommander, Glendinning System and Kobelts are all great engine controls. Like all things on a boat if not installed properly they will not work correctly. Its not ZF's fault if the installer did not follow the requirements per the manufactures specifications and someone had issues. ZF requires a APS be installed with their system to prevent voltage failures, I will not install a system on a vessel with out it. To assume that these controls are junk is not knowing what one is talking about. That is like saying the engines should keep running if you run out of fuel.

 

[johnpauljones610]

Wish I’d read this before buying my boat, I’ve just been quoted £7500 parts only to replace my old ZF Mathers system with a new ZF system, they won’t help to fix the issue with the old unit, they seem totally clueless! I’ll be fitting cable!

 

[boatnbump]

I will agree with the previous poster that spoke about wiring issues on these vessels with electronic controls. The MicroCommander, Glendinning System and Kobelts are all great engine controls. Like all things on a boat if not installed properly they will not work correctly. Its not ZF's fault if the installer did not follow the requirements per the manufactures specifications and someone had issues. ZF requires a APS be installed with their system to prevent voltage failures, I will not install a system on a vessel with out it. To assume that these controls are junk is not knowing what one is talking about. That is like saying the engines should keep running if you run out of fuel.

Exactly.

 

[Symphony]

Johnpaul, that’s bad news. But wait! I was advised to do the same when I had a 15-year-old Boat with intermittent throttle problems.

One I fixed by rubbing eraser on a tiny contact at the point where the cables plugged into the engine room commander module. The other one I fixed by carefully measuring Resistance coming out of the throttle handles themselves, and found that the offending engine had one corroded/bad patch on the pot. This would cause the engine to unexplainably go into reverse, which now makes sense, but at the time mystified me and every tech in the Marina.

Cleaning that and adding a jumper of solder fixed it and I used it without any flaws for years. In both situations techs and my marina neighbors advised me that I had to get an entire new system and get rid of that ZF commander…

 

[Bmarler]

Wish I’d read this before buying my boat, I’ve just been quoted £7500 parts only to replace my old ZF Mathers system with a new ZF system, they won’t help to fix the issue with the old unit, they seem totally clueless! I’ll be fitting cable!

Care to say what exactly are the problems you’re having?
Micro commanders are really pretty good systems. If you understand them, they are easy to use and troubleshoot. I wouldn’t just pull them out as a matter of course.

 

[jgwinks]

It's not just yachts they have had problems. The new USCGC Mackinaw on her maiden voyage steamed into Grand Haven, MI for the annual Coast Guard Festival. Halfway up the channel with concrete walls on both sides the ship decided to make a 90 degree right turn all on her own. Tore a big hole in the bow and did a couple million dollars damage to the wall. The Commanding Officer retired a few weeks later, no doubt a lot earlier than he had planned.

 

[Raffy]

ZF Mathers

Sorry for the long time in posting on these controls, we have been traveling the world doing installs on everything from a 28 ft center console to a 200ft island freighter. As I have said in previous post the ZF MicroCommanders, and the Glendinning System are ranked as some of the best in the industry. As with any other electronic or mechanical device the proper installation is the key. They should ALWAYS HAVE AN APS INSTALLED WITH THE SYSTEM TO PROVIDE MULTIPLE POWER SOURCES. Some of the issues I am reading about on the forum are power issues (installer or boat builder did not follow ZF guidelines). This is not a fault of the product as this product is currently in use by over 300,000 vessels worldwide including Commercial Vessels, Coast Guard, US Navy, Mega Yachts and various other vessels. As far as for control head failures the control head levers are a wearable item and will usually give you a warning when need replacing (hard to establish control, engine rpm fluctuation or bumping into gear). If you experience one of these systems you should contact an authorized ZF Dealer and replace the unit. If you continue to ignore the symptoms then you are risking complete failure. Also all of the ZF control should give you an audible alarm if they detect a problem. Like anything else on the boat they need to be kept in good working order. Again I am always happy to provide free tech support to help our Trawler Forum members keep boating.

 

[Bmarler]

Sorry for the long time in posting on these controls, we have been traveling the world doing installs on everything from a 28 ft center console to a 200ft island freighter. As I have said in previous post the ZF MicroCommanders, and the Glendinning System are ranked as some of the best in the industry. As with any other electronic or mechanical device the proper installation is the key. They should ALWAYS HAVE AN APS INSTALLED WITH THE SYSTEM TO PROVIDE MULTIPLE POWER SOURCES. Some of the issues I am reading about on the forum are power issues (installer or boat builder did not follow ZF guidelines). This is not a fault of the product as this product is currently in use by over 300,000 vessels worldwide including Commercial Vessels, Coast Guard, US Navy, Mega Yachts and various other vessels. As far as for control head failures the control head levers are a wearable item and will usually give you a warning when need replacing (hard to establish control, engine rpm fluctuation or bumping into gear). If you experience one of these systems you should contact an authorized ZF Dealer and replace the unit. If you continue to ignore the symptoms then you are risking complete failure. Also all of the ZF control should give you an audible alarm if they detect a problem. Like anything else on the boat they need to be kept in good working order. Again I am always happy to provide free tech support to help our Trawler Forum members keep boating.

Just curious, have the low voltage issues been on 12 volt systems only? I have some experience with these controls, and have a set that I will eventually install on my current boat. I think they list 12-24 (or was it 12 to 40) volts input. Instead of a aps, couldn’t one install a regulated power supply? A regulated 12 to 24 volt power supply should eliminate low voltage issues right?

 

[Raffy]

Electronic engine controls

Then ZF Mathers controls will work on 12 or 24 VDC as they are auto select on the power input. Usually power issues are found on the 12 VDC inputs as the unit can start seeing some issues at 10.5 volts, again that is why ZF specifies using an APS (Auto Power Selector) on all installs. Glendinning also has an APS as battery voltage is the most important thing to any electronic control.

Not many issues on 24 volt system except maybe some loose connections.

 

[mvweebles]

A friend with a 2014 built yacht had his ZF controls go rogue when docking. Issue was traced to moisture intrusion into the controls on his command bridge controller (I use term "command bridge" vs flybridge because it has a solid hard top and solid forward facing windows so well protected from elements).

Not sure the IP rating on these controls (if any), but something to consider. If/when these do fail, it will invariably be during close quarter maneuvers. Electronic controls are seductively silky smooth. But when they revolt, it's villagers with pitchforks.

Peter

 

[rslifkin]

One thing I don't understand with electronic controls is why nobody offers an option to configure control heads for split control functionality? It seems like it could easily be handled in the software, but everyone seems to assume that single lever per engine is the "desired" state and that nobody would want anything else unless forced. Personally, with a single engine, either style is fine. With twins, I much prefer split controls, as they're easier to use without looking when docking (no risk of overshooting the in gear at idle point when shifting) and the longer throttle travel is nice for being precise about throttle adjustments while cruising.

 

[Adopo]

I have wondered if this was a control issue as being discussed...

Go to around 4:54 below.

 

[andrewf]

Actually you should have stop buttons at each station where there is a control head. I start from my pilot house and run the boat from the flybridge. I have start & stop buttons at the flybridge location but the master switch is in the pilot house. Most of the time you will get a warning about a control head becoming worn (hard to take control, lever position not equal, shift point not the same) before you have an issue. The problem is most people ignore this issue until things get worse. Just for your comfort my control head in my pilot house is 19 years old and works fine. I have replaced my flybridge once since new but I have also been in 3 hurricanes with this boat so the flybridge control took a beating.

Hi Raffy
I know this is an old thread but I thought I would ask anyway. Your knowledge of Microcommanders seems amazing.
I am in Australia and finding help with these is difficult.
I have 1998 Horizon with cats and duel station MC controls
I have replaced flying bridge control about 7 years ago and it is well protected.
However just lately randomly on start up I get immediate beep caused by port engine moving into ahead position on gearbox
It will go to reverse but in neutral indent its in forward.
That control gets locked out then randomly it will correct itself.
So I can’t figure out a pattern to cause it it is random but regular and annoying
Any thoughts??
Many many thanks

 

[Slider70]

I have phoned the folks making these controls. They were extremely helpful with the questions I had.

 

[Symphony]

Corrosion on tiny pads in the throttle control. It’s easy to disassemble and reassemble. You will see.
Happy new year from the yanks.

 

[Raffy]

I would look for corrosion on the terminal strip on the bottom of the control head. These are analog controls so you are dealing with low voltage signals at the control head. The control heads are wearable items and depending on usage will need to be replaced when worn. Based on the timeline you of your replacement you probably have the older style unit that had a single band wiper in the control head pot. The new units now have dual band wiper pots that are epoxyed in to avoid any slippage or false signals. Normally when the pot wears you will have a hard time taking control as ZF only allows you to take control in the normal neutral range (about 4.95 on the A/D value). Also when a control head becomes worn it will normally stay faulty. If this is an intermittent problem then I would look for loose or corroded connections. Hope this helps.

 

[andrewf]

Thanks so much for the great input.
Are you suggesting that the terminals on the exterior bottom of the handset could be corroded or do you suggest I pull it apart and look and clean inside.?

I will attach a pic of my controllers.

One other thing that may be relevant is that lately on start up which I do from lower station it takes some time to gain control at that station.

I do have upper and lower station. Lower is original as far as I know vintage 1998. Upper I replaced about 6 years ago as I had random alarms at that time

Thanks in advance and Happy New Year

 

[Raffy]

those are the 460-4 control heads, look for corrosion on terminal strip on bottom. Do not take apart as there is nothing you can repair inside the unit and you may damage it taking it apart. Also what is the processor numbers in the engine room?

 

[andrewf]

Thanks Raffy
I will check for corrosion however I very much doubt that there will any as the unit is pretty much in an enclosed wheelhouse and is completely out of the weather and is actually inside the galley ceiling from underneath.
Today as a mayor intereste I found and inspected the old previously replaced unit that was faulty. It had no corrosion at all. I dismantled it just to see and it was perfect inside.
I will attach pics of the dismantled old unit for your interest.
Yes nothing serviceable in there.
Also interesting today I did a check and the problem arose immediately on start up. Checked found gear selector on engine to be not in neutral position just about half in forward
You could select reverse no problem but not forward.
I then took control upstairs and it corrected itself.
Now I can’t induce the fault again for now.
I will attach a pic of the engine room processor.
Many thanks

 

[Raffy]

Ok now I see you have 24 year old ClearCommands. These units have a feed back pot in them that sends a signal to the circuit board to let it know what position it is in. This pot could be getting worn causing the issue. Due to their age these units are no longer repairable and you would have to update the two processors in the engine room to the new style replacement units. You would use all the existing wiring and control heads and we would provide you with the two new processors and a couple of new harness's for syncrhonization.

 

[Eli27]

We took 2 months this summer with our new to us Tolly 43. All went well EXCEPT

Several times we lost control of our engines .. shifts and throttles, apparently due to malfunction of our Mathers controls.

I have since learned that these issues are common and well known. Engines can suddenly, with no warning, shift gears or go to high throttle extreme. This happened at least five times. Once this caused me to lose control during landing and damage my boat and the adjacent boat.

Mechanics in Canada and Anacortes worked on the problem and diagnosed battery issues .. replacing the starboard alternator. They told me (and I have since learned this is true, that low battery or high voltage could both cause dysfunction.

Getting back home, Seattle, I now learn this is a well known issue with mathers and not just Mathers and not just the old one.

Maintenance for these things is poorly described

The newer units have error codes but ONLY on the engine not at the bridge

The newer units do have an alrm to alert that ther eis a malfunction!

The install should include a voltage device that automatically selcts which batter has the best voltage.

Here are some facts.

1. Our controls are old, probably installed in the mid-nineties. Our engine date from 2006 so the controls must have been reinstalled then.

2. We have two stations, one on the FB, one below.

3. On these occasions I have
-lost control of the stbd engine.
-had stbd engine reve to max
-had one engine go into reverse

I know all catch alot of flack for this but it's just me being me. I love my Morse controls! Nice, cable operated with low maintenance. Pull the controls if you can't access from underneath. Do a quick survey of all connections and replace your cables every 10yrs. Or sooner.

I work on cars,,, over 20yrs. I've seen the fly by wire come in and take over. Nothing beats mechanical connections.

 

[Raffy]

Actually both the old Mathers and the new ZF require a APS unit (Auto Power Selector) when installing these controls. All electronic control systems require this so if your vessel does not have one then the install was improperly done. I would recommend purchasing the APS and having it installed in the system. This unit draws from 2 separate battery banks and is always drawing its power from the strongest bank. When we install them we draw from two battery banks and then have the power sent to two isolated 10 amp breakers that control the ZF/Mathers Processors. This way when the breakers are on the only thing drawing any current thru the APS are the processors. Mine have been on our boat for 24 years and never have I had that issue. Same with thousands of other vessels where the units are installed correctly. Let me know if you want to purchase the APS they are around $250.00.

 

[andrewf]

Thanks Raffy.
That’s good to know
I am slightly confused though as on one hand you say the pots in the handsets get worn. And on the other you say I can upgrade the boards in the engine room boxes and keep existing handsets.
Good to know and a relief.
But don’t I need to replace the offending handset first. ?
Downstairs unit is as you said circa1997 the upstairs is much newer as I replaced it about 6 years ago.
I am now very suspicious of the lower station as it is original. And yesterday I did some tests that seemed to prove that that is the problem child.
Also it is very slow to take control on lower station compared to top station and has been for a while especially on start up.
I have attached photos of both port and stb setups for your interest
Can you advise the cost of new boards and a new 406-4 handset?
Many thanks again

 

[Raffy]

Yes I would replace the worn control head now and then if you want wait until the old boxes fail to replace them with the new Series. The 460-4 control head is $1,085.00 or you can use the 463-4 which is the same control head with Morse style handles and it is $757.00 (this is the one that I use on my boat). The replacement boxes you would use are the 96100 and they are $3300 each. You would also need a couple of new harness's for sync. which would be around $400 depending on length.

 

[andrewf]

Thanks Raffy.
Sorry to keep pestering you but just so I know.
Regarding the boxes is it complete box replacement or just the boards in the boxes you replace?
And re the sync harness does that go from engine room to the handset or is it just in the engine room. ?
I have replaced a handset myself before but to meddle in the engine room boxes sounds above my pay scale.
Regards
Andrew