Waiving the White Flag - Looking for opinions

[Slider70]

I have boated for 48 years. Every used boat I purchased needed work. Some substantial. I had the skill to do most of the work myself other than engine & gear rebuilds, though I did pull and re-install them. Reading though your post I think I have been in your shoes at a point in my life?

Every boat I sold was in far better condition on sale than when purchased. I made money on the commercial licenses I had on many of those boats but never on the boat. Very few people recover the cost of their up grades. You either have to mostly enjoy the complete process revolving around owning and using a boat or your doing the wrong thing with your short time you have on this earth.

One thing that always bothered me was once I decided to sell my boat I became nervous even using it. Simply the more you use a used vessel the more likely some other repair will be required. So my advice is IF you have decided to sell get the boat into sales condition ASAP and sell as quickly as possible.

However, this likely will be the worst market in many years to sell any used boat. Plus I suspect a year from now it will even be worse?

 

[Flyguy1967]

One thing that always bothered me was once I decided to sell my boat I became nervous even using it. Simply the more you use a used vessel the more likely some other repair will be required. So my advice is IF you have decided to sell get the boat into sales condition ASAP and sell as quickly as possible.

However, this likely will be the worst market in many years to sell any used boat. Plus I suspect a year from now it will even be worse?

I agree 100% with you Slider!

 

[MV Caroline]

Flyguy, I can relate, sort of, to your lament. I am in the second year of a refit to Caroline. This is my ninth full refit and so far second most expensive one. I do know, however, that there is the bright side to all the work and expense waiting just around the corner. If you are able, take some time to enjoy your boat with your family (as soon as the epidemic allows us to get out and cruise) and friends.

I have never sold a boat for anywhere near what I've put into it, and I was in the industry for a number of years.

 

[Chrisjs]

Boating is a hobby for most people on this list. Repairing old boats can be an option so that the owner can buy a fixer upper to use in their boating hobby.
Repairing old boats can be a hobby in itself. Sounds like your hobby has outlived its attraction. Time to sell. As previous, hard (unusual) to get back what you put in. Cut your losses or decide you really want to go boating and compromise on the work. But doing more work to make your pig fly will not add much (any) value, apart from making it usable for you. Also as previously mentioned, I also found that once I put my boat on the market, I basically stopped using it because it needed to be in"Bristol shape" for would be buyers to check out. Lastly, it takes a long time to sell most boats, so you will likely have plenty of time to reconsider any decision you make!!

 

[LanceD]

Don't give up take a break clear your mind and as someone commented on earlier break up your to do list and start smaller and set up a monthly goal and stick to it and please don't give up I guarantee you will be happy you stuck with it.

 

[HiDHo]

Are you a drinking man, if so take a break and chill out and have a wee dram. My Uncle who was a carpenter once said to me, regarding home ownership. It’ just sticks and bricks and it can be fixed. These wise words also apply to boats.
Remember boats are a work in progress, Messing about in boats is a fine way to relax and gets you back to basics. You may look back at this boat experience as a memory, good or bad.

 

[syjos]

Read the PO's post # 23..

His mission has changed. He doesn't need or want a 48' boat.

 

[The Brockerts]

get after it, now

I bought a 30 year boat, one that I thought I could do some easy remodeling /upgrading. When I got into it I found a lot of problems. I'm 5 months in and burned out too. You can't even walk in the boat without stepping into an open hatch. I've bury the hatchet and I'm digging into it like there is no tomorrow. Come Hxxxx or high water this boat is going to run and I'm going to retire on it in a few months. Don't give up, get after it.

The Brockerts

 

[ssobol]

You can't look at a recreational boat from a financial perspective. It NEVER, EVER pays off in a dollars and cents way that an accountant (or your wife) would be happy with.

You can only look at it from the point of the pleasure it brings you, whether it is anchored out watching the sunset, or all the projects you do to get it "just right". But it is hard to assign a $ value to those things.

 

[ancora]

I really feel for the OP, but have seen this unhappy movie multiple times. "Project" boats make sense if all of a few things are true:

1) Fixing things up is your true passionate, very favorite thing to do
2) Boating itself is way down the list from there
3) You are very handy
4) You value your time at zero
5) Money is not an issue when it comes to sourcing materials and parts
6) Money is not an issue at all when it is time to resell.

If all of the above don't apply, even a "free" boat can likely be the most expensive example of that particular craft on the market.

All six points were true when we bought our trawler twenty years ago....and they still are.

 

[AusCan]

Yes, it certainly can wear a person down.

When I bought my project, I knew there was a lot of work to do. It turned out it there was double the work anticipated and took 4 times as long as expected. I'm not sure about the cost because I stopped counting.

It sounds like the big difference with your situation is... you no longer love her.
When you fall out of love with your boat, it's time to move on.

 

[Lou_tribal]

I do not agree that this is a good plan... You will spend 50k to repower it, in extra to all what you already did, then you will loose money selling it as you won't be able to pass all your bills onto the next owner.
You may not need a 48' boot anymore, but you already have it and can enjoy it after having put much effort to renovate it.
Except if you have a big mortgage on it or want to get out of boating I don't see any good investment in selling the one you have got back to your standard and loosing money to later on buy a smaller one that you will anyway want to bring up to your standards.

L

 

[mvweebles]

Flyguy. I've been in your shoes with a boat that required significant repairs to make it marketable. Only big differences in my instance was emotional attachment and that I wanted to continue owning a boat.

My 1970 Willard 36 was tired beyond belief. Mostly cosmetic, but I was certain she wouldn't sell easily if at all. I felt like I was in an absolute hole. Unwilling to just walk away, and I didn't want to sustain the ongoing costs forever.

In the end, as decided that we had 20+ years together and liked the traditional Bill Garden design. She deserved restoration so we made an even worse financial decision. A thorough refit. Even with labor in Mexico, it makes zero sense. But it's our last boat and we're proud to do it and own her.

I do not sense the emotional attachment from you. I would prioritize first running gear to make her worthy of a sea trial. Then appearance. Both would be done at minimum viable cost. Not a total BS job, but at lowest possible "bang for the buck" dollar. I would then price her well below market to get her sold fast. You will lose money - more than you'd like to admit. But if I were in your shoes, goal would be to get away asap.

I'm sorry for your change of plans. This will not be cheap for you. But time is of the essence. You don't want a stale listing.

Good luck

Peter

 

[skipperguy]

Had a 40 foot trailer for 26 years. Sound hull, sound engines but cosmetic disaster. Put up every winter in Connecticut. Every spring consisted of Triage: what must be done before Cruising what can be done during Cruising season and what can be just put off.
The plan worked well. We had one underway failure in 26 years. I considered my approach to be perfect for us

 

[denverd0n]

No advice for FlyGuy, but I think this is a cautionary tale for all of those folks out there who think that buying a project boat is a good way to get into boating. A project boat is first and foremost a PROJECT. Buy a project boat if you want a project. Save your money until you can afford a boat that needs minimal work if what you really want is to go boating.


Good luck to you FlyGuy, however it works out.

 

[Worldhoppers3]

FlyGuy - no experience here just shopping and learning how to live the dream, but the wife and I have always had the dream. Thank you for sharing the lows as well as the highs. We are shopping in the PNW and have come to realize we can’t afford a trawler in this market - then the virus hit and now we are hoping to find “that deal” - I truly hope you get your project back together and if you ever need an amateur hand to help out and learn - please let me know. Good luck Brother...

 

[Flyguy1967]

Thank you everyone for your thoughts and comments. The broker and I are prioritizing the list of "to-do's" and I plan on pricing her aggressively.

Sometimes things work out, other times not, but I'm fortunate in that now or twenty years from now, the money lost on this endeavor will not have moved the needle.

They say we should learn form our mistakes and there have been a few with this boat. Namely, I let the mission, purpose and the price, rationalize the purchase and make the additions (i.e. installing a bow thruster, new canvass and completely rebuilding wet bar with new ice maker and dishwasher instillation). These were not critical upgrades to operation but specifically for me and all took time, energy and money and hence the fatigue.

Now that the mission has changed and the boat no longer suits us, looking back, I clearly see my mis-steps and hope from this thread, those looking to purchase, take a deep breath and do a real assessment of themselves and the boat before pulling the trigger. It's hard! This is my 10th or 11th "big boat" (last being a 42' sundeck trawler (the one in my profile photo) and I understand the emotion side of the purchase equation, but DON'T' let those emotions overrule making a sound decision.

We love boating and this will not be our last boat. We will get her sold and begin looking for the next "one" and I will try with all my might not to let my emotions rationalize the purchase. I hope

 

[Flyguy1967]

Update!

The repower is almost done (seatrial Friday) and decided we are keeping the boat! The video is it the first start in a long while!

Details about the whole ordeal can be found here:

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s6/ponderosa-48-repower-cummins-5-9-6bta-53753.html

We love to ski Mt. Hood Meadows in Oregon (we live in Olympia WA) so wife suggested we keep the boat and get on the waiting list for Hood River Marina (45 mins to the resort) and in the meanwhile get a slip in Portland or hopefully at the Dalles.

After stepping aboard GFC's Sea Ray 550 before he moved it up to Seattle https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s36/want-go-boat-ride-51820.html, we decided this would be a great design so bought a newer model, Sea Ray 560 SB (in Portland of all places which we will swap slips with the Ponderosa), so we will have a condo in Oregon for skiing and close to all that the mountain and Hood River has to offer and a boat in Seattle (I have a covered slip in the ship canal that I have been paying for all this time) which we can get to the San Juans in less than a day (the boat is deceptively quick).

I personally like to read about how things turned out for others so thought I would eat my own cooking and give you all an update.

And for what its worth, we decided we will change the name of the Ponderosa 48 to "Phoenix".

 

[Okydowky]

So I’m confused!

You decided to keep your 48 Ponderosa after sea trial.

You liked GFC’s Searay so you bought a 56’ , bigger than your 48’

And you renamed your 48’ to Phoenix and swapped slips?

Unless I missed something in there,?

 

[Flyguy1967]

A Bit of Clarification

Sorry if things were not clear.

The Sea Ray is currently berthed in PDX and the Ponderosa is in SEA awaiting a sea trial with the newly installed engines on Friday (it was actually a year ago today 2/7/20 that I delivered the engines to the mechanic). The boat has been at the mechanic's since 1/24/20.

We will bring the Ponderosa down to PDX this spring/summer and turn around and bring the Sea Ray up to SEA. The Ponderosa will be in PDX until we get a slip at Hood River or the Dalles to be used as our condo and the new Portland office for my business and the Sea Ray will be berthed in Seattle for cruising the Salish Sea.

Wife decided we have too much money wrapped-up in the Ponderosa to sell her immediately, so we got a priest, a rabbi and shaman, and had a sage smudge ceremony to purge the boat of the bad juju, then came up with the new name to hopefully totally rid the boat of the bad spirits. We are very fortunate that we could pivot and come up with an alternative and workable solution for the boat.

Below is a photo of the Sea Ray.

Cheers!

 

[mvweebles]

Thanks for the update. You're right - epilogue is always nice .

Very ambitious to go from one boat that you want to sell to two that you will keep. Sounds like a nice plan though.

Peter

 

[Flyguy1967]

They run!

Here is a short video of yesterday's (2/12) sea trial.

Engines ran great. Hit 17kts and had more to go but port transmission (brand new of course) got hot (200 F) so stopped the sea trial and went back to the barn.

The engines are super smooth and quiet. I'm standing on the sundeck with ER hatch open and door from saloon open thus funneling all sound out the door and running at 2,300 RPMs (Max is 2,800).

Now we need to pull the transmission and send back to the supplier for investigation and sort out a few minor electrical gremlins.

You can see in the background Husky Stadium, the greatest setting in college football.

Always something!

 

[slowgoesit]

Before I pulled the transmission, I would try and confirm that the transmission is the problem. It could very well be:

• Temp sender
• Temp gauge
• heat exchanger
• collapsed fluid line to/from heat exchanger
• not sure how your system is set up, could be other things as well.

Bottom line, before you assume it's a manufacturer problem and go to the expense of pulling/crating/shipping the transmission, . . . . TEST, DON'T GUESS!

 

[Flyguy1967]

Thanks!

We had Mike at North Harbor Diesel on the line before we left the dock going through a diagnosis. Before we left the dock, the port gear was 60 F and the stb was 125 F. The lines to the gears were warm but not hot and the case temp was continually monitored with a laser temp gun during the sea trial.

They are going through that stb gear today and I'll be sure to report back.

 

[bayview]

They probably did not find the root cause of the original trany failure. Blocked
heat exchanger s my bet.

 

[Flyguy1967]

Just to clarify...

The old port gear (401M PRM) did not fail but it was not in the best of shape. After I purchased the boat I sent out the gears to be tested by North Harbor Diesel.

I did have to replace the stbd gear in the 2019 refit because it was in bad shape.

What led to the replacement of the port gear was the need for a robust gear with the extra HP of the Cummins and the fact I could trade-in the non-functional Lehmans SP 225's and the pair of ZF 700 V-Drive gears that came with the Cummins for a new PRM that matched the port gear.

If they can get to the shop today (there was a major snow even in Seattle over the weekend) they will take it apart and see what might be causing the overheating issue and if nothing is discovered, send it back to North Harbor Diesel.

For what its worth, all of the heat exchangers and coolers were sent out to be boiled and rodded so at least there is a clean slate from there but I guess that does not mean there is not something still blocking in the cooling system.

I'll keep you posted!