Total Control

[BandB]

Wifey B: A contagious disease, the grouchy old man syndrome, at epidemic levels in this thread.

 

[syjos]

Wifey B: A contagious disease, the grouchy old man syndrome, at epidemic levels in this thread.

Thanks,

 

[koliver]

15, or was it 20 yrs ago I had a client at the cutting edge of this sort of technology in its developing stages. The driving force then, as he explained it to me, was to allow a supply vessel to approach a drill platform in the Gulf of Mexico and off load those necessaries onto a tiny docking platform. The tech, at that stage, was capable of holding station indefinitely within a couple of feet of the platform, while loading took place, in any sea state.
A concrete example of the success of that tech was the superyacht Attessa, the one that was originally Aviva, stretched and modernized by the Washington Group, holding station in Indian Arm while all the toys were deployed, but without an anchor, as we motored past on our way to Wigwam Inn.

 

[catalinajack]

I have always been impressed by the systems to automatically hold station (e.g. research vessels in open water, tugs, or yachts like the one in the OP.) Raymarine and others are rolling out automatic docking this year! All of this to enable an unskilled sector of the public. Before you know it, even the sailing community will be overtaken by drone-sailing tech, and then every yahoo who wants a yacht will be out there, all relying on their ship's computer to keep them safe. Without proper redundancies (i.e. being capable of manually maneuvering) this could evolve into mass chaos in the event of a GPS failure.


It reminds me of the time I almost collided with a planing power boat because its captain was down below making a sandwich. He engaged the autopilot and walked away from the helm. I wonder if the yacht in the OP had systems to keep watch while the captain was down below?



Boat handling WILL become a lost art. I pride myself on my ability to control my boat in a variety of conditions. I also enjoy the free entertainment one can find in most marinas and anchorages come happy hour. What will we do when all the boats park themselves?

Last summer we watched the boat ahead of us enterinng a lock crash into the lock wall, bounce off and into the stern of another boat, and bounce again into the wall and finally lodging the pulpit under a steel railing. Why? Because the electronic engine controls went crazy. It was later determined that the battery supplying the juice to the controls had lost voltage and the engine computer defaulted to the last known command, in this case, forward under more than idle speed. Now, this happened because of what I think was a design flaw. The battery in question was also the feed to the bow thruster. You get it. Entering the lock that battery had been worked hard and hadn't had time to recover. Perhaps the battery was undersized, or old, but it doesn't matter. On the other hand, another boat in our group had broken somwhere else, for the second time, the throttle contriol cable on his upper helm. Depending on when that had happened, he could have gone into a lock wall in the same uncontrolled manner.

Fortunately for all, the pulpit was quickly freed from the wall, damage to the boats was minimal, and the ten boats locked through without further delay.

 

[psneeld]

Grouchy old men?.... Not really....mostly a different perspective on life forged by experience.

One can embrace tech and use it regularly but still enjoy traditions and old school methods.

It's recreational boating.... with no medals awarded or pay raises for exceptional performance..... Just personal satisfaction.

 

[Fletcher500]

Most of us grew up with boats when we were young. I begged my dad to let me buy a used 10 ft. Long sailboat when I was 12, which I paid $100 using my paper route money. The nuances of learning how to deal with the ocean, weather, and boat handling were learned and ingrained in to us at an early stage. Most Joy stick boaters (pods and straight drives) entered into boating later in life without any boating or ocean back ground. Then, they won’t take the time to learn basic seamanship, Nav Rules, etc. The generalizations about these boats and their owners are accurate, like it or not.

 

[Tamrow]

The latest electronic gizmo enables the most incompetent docker to dock like a pro. http://www.raymarine.com/docksense/

 

[Group9]

Just wait. In fifty years, we will just “think” where we want the computer to take the boat! And, old hands will say, “nobody knows how to push a button anymore. It’s just a lost skill”.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Guys - I’ve been boating for 50 years, and a pilot for 15. I learned on sailboats, many with no engine, and on steam gauges in airplanes. My question is, who among us has never had a problem docking in wind and current, or landing in a wicked crosswind? In the last 24 months I’ve upgraded the panel on my plane to full electronics, and upgraded to a 50’ Beneteau that, while it doesn’t have the Dynamic Positioning button, does have joysticks at each of the 3 control stations. Why wouldn’t we make use of newer technology if it’s available? Because it breaks? Everything breaks - if you’ve never had an engine quit on you then your spending too much time at the dock. Did anyone besides me type their reply on a cell phone, or did everyone send in a letter by snail mail? Threads like this make us look like a bunch of dinosaurs waiting to die.

Don,
Love it.
I see you only have 11 posts.
I’d like to see more of the above.
Don’t go away.

 

[firstbase]

New fangled technology. 10 years from now no one will know how to ride a horse. I bet the driver was typewriting while driving.

 

[South of Heaven]

New fangled technology. 10 years from now no one will know how to ride a horse. I bet the driver was typewriting while driving.

Funny pic!

 

[Gulf Comanche]

My lifelong boat trip started in the ‘50s. Grandfather had a camp on Highland Bayou which emptied into Galveston Bay on the north side. Guy down the oyster shell street had a wooden skiff sunk in his slip. He said I could have it if I could re-float it, which I did. Then Uncle Walter gave me and my brother an old Elgin 5hp engine, the kind you turn 180 deg for reverse. I was about maybe 9 and mobil, freedom to go and dream. Now pushing 70 hard, still boat mobil and still dreaming. I love all the new gizmos, 90% of the equipment on my boat is last century excepting computer, bow thruster, depth finder and inverter. Long live the dream.
Mike

 

[Codger2]

We pretended one day by tossing a ring and some weights attached into the water that we had a man overboard. It was to see how good out autopilot and plotter was on returning on the route. It took us on the route right back to the ring, about 2 miles back. .

Interesting that you posted the MOB drill as that is exactly what I plan on doing in the next couple of days. My question, however, is this: After you selected the MOB function on your plotter did the boat automatically start navigating back to the MOB position? Why did it take 2 miles to accomplish the return?

 

[BandB]

Grouchy old men?.... Not really....mostly a different perspective on life forged by experience.

One can embrace tech and use it regularly but still enjoy traditions and old school methods.

It's recreational boating.... with no medals awarded or pay raises for exceptional performance..... Just personal satisfaction.

Wifey B: I admire experience. I have no problem with knowing old school methods. However, I do have an issue when those who have old school methods automatically put down new technology.

Sometimes those of old schools have very selective memory. Easy to cite when someone using newer technology had issues. But easy to forget all those who bounced around locks and docks, who ran aground, using old school methods but lacking experience or diligence. We've always had boating mistakes and technology isn't the blame. Every new boater lacks experience, by definition. Some seek training, some don't. Go to a lake and watch the newbies trying to back their trailer at the ramp or see how many forget to put the drain plug in. Easy to ridicule all the newbies but better to assist and advise. One of the best things TF does is guide people to training and while the training may differ, that guidance toward it would have made sense 40 years ago, does today, and will 40 years from now.

Pods and joysticks are a popular target but the wrong one. It may be true that many inexperienced boaters jump on them although I know long time boaters who have as well. However, there have always been new boaters and always been those who jumped in without adequate training. Fact is, those very boaters are better with thrusters and joysticks than if they didn't have them. The problem isn't the technology. The problem is people jumping into boating without any training and that's not a technology issue.

If the boat has thrusters, I use them. If it has joysticks, I use them. I can dock without either, but better with them. If it has twins, I use them. I've only handled a boat with pods twice and it was ok, but I wasn't overly impressed. However, with more experience with them, I'm sure I would have picked up on additional attributes. Now, one place where many of you could dock better than me and that's single engines. Outside our RIB's, I've never owned a boat with singles. I've trained a little on one but not enough to become expert. I understand the principles, but I lack the experience of others. On the other hand, I'll take anyone on with twins and technology. I'm betting I can out handle most of you with jet propelled RIB's too. Doesn't mean I'm smarter, just used them a lot more and learned. Now, I also don't know how to operate a 600' commercial ship either.

We all have our areas of less or greater experience. I don't have it at operating 7 knot boats and the unique issues there dealing with tides and inlets. However, I have more offshore experience and crossing large expanses of water experience than many. It's natural. I've seen some 30 year captains from large commercial ships who were totally lost when they jumped to operating a smaller recreational boat.

Boating is an easy entry recreation. Always has been. Always been a lot of failures of newbies just buying and taking off in their first boat. That's not technology. I'd say on lakes we're actually 1% better than we were as now at least most states require a minimal boating course. At least newcomers are exposed to a little bit of information. Should there be a driver's test like on cars? Probably, but then would you object to the additional $20 registration fee? We could make entry into boating more difficult. However, that could be very dangerous for boating in general. That could lead to fewer new boaters and even turn boating into a recreation for the privileged. I took the time, expended the effort, sought the training to become a licensed captain and to continue to upgrade but I'd hate the thought of that being necessary for a recreational boater.

I think we all need to be careful about putting down those with less experience or training than we have. We need to be careful about criticizing technology. We need to become more knowledgeable with our own equipment and technology. And the one thing we need to do is something I think TF'ers do a great job of and that is encourage training and education. I wish the rest of the boating community did as good a job at that. I see part of the sailboat group doing so but a large portion of sailboaters telling people to just jump in and take off across oceans because so and so did it and survived. Unfortunately, most new powerboaters don't start with a group like TF. The dealers and brokers often just care about making a sale and don't push them to get training. It's the entry boater who jumps in, may not take an online boater ed course, but is off boating with 15 minutes of practical instruction from the salesperson. It's to that salespersons benefit in making a sale to say how easy it is.

Many of you are very lucky in that you grew up boating. I'm lucky in that I married into it and I got hundreds of hours of training by my hubby starting immediately.

On the whole, boating is a pretty safe recreation. Has it's ups and downs, but then what doesn't. To those of you who think some of the coastal boaters are horrific, you should just go spend July 4 on a lake somewhere. You ain't seen nothin' yet till you see that. I'm glad to see safety and training as an issue discussed on TF, just don't like the sidetrack that somehow says the problem is technology. The problems are training, experience and sobriety and attention to operating boats. Now, I'm going to take the helm on this beautiful boating day as we run 35 knots off the coast of South Florida.

 

[Sea Word]

It's a very handy feature. I've had to hold stations for bridges and locks many times and it gets old fast. I'm sure many others have have the same experience.


But they also enable, and even encourage poor seamanship and boat handling skills. Why learn to control a boat when the button will do it for you. I feel the same way about many of the driving assist features in cars. They just make it easier to not pay attention while playing with your phone.


The trouble with joystick control on a boat is that they come with a lot of extra complexity, which means more stuff to break. Although no longer limited to pod drives, pods are often part of such a package, and I have heard pretty much nothing good about pods.

Learning to drive a stick or handle a boat was because we had to, if we don’t have to, then we don’t need to. Just like I don’t need to know how to make my own clothes or skin my own deer. Doesn’t mean it’s a bad idea to know, but in the future, everything will just be a button. It’s a good thing, I guess.

 

[OldDan1943]

My bro had joy sticks and pods. Coming into a harbor, things failed, boat ended up hold, above the water line. Was still under warranty (2nd boating season in Michigan) ..... they gave him a new boat, after some discussion about the accident and damage had to follow the boat's history.
The new boat had the "old fashion" 2 shaft engine control.

 

[BandB]

One thing we're doing in talking pods and joysticks is mixing a lot of variables together. For the moment, I'm going to confine thoughts to just IPS and Zeus systems. There was talk earlier about entry level boats and inexperienced users. Well, mention needs to be made of inexperienced or subpar builders too. The major issues were certainly in the earlier years. However, I've seen some of the lesser quality builders jump onto the pod wagon and they'd develop control problems just as they did with shafts and traditional wheels and controls. Two builders come to my mind quickly, one French and one British. I've seen issues with their IPS installations, but then I've seen issues with everything they do. Their workmanship, especially on their smaller boats, just isn't up to par.

Most of the boats represented on TF are quality builders. Most are either older boats with the bugs worked out or newer builds from builders who delivery quality.

 

[rsn48]

At one time guys probably didn’t trust an electric starter. They would of course have a hand crank handy.

Many a decade ago, I worked in a hospital in Elmhurst Illinois while I went to College there. One of my jobs was to take patients down to radiation therapy, this was roughly 1970 so back then if you were going to this therapy, odds weren't good for your survival. Doses have been reduced, pinpointing the cancer is better today, and therapy options are incredible compared to back then. My son is dating a radiation therapist who administers treatment and we had a long talk about the changes.

But to get back to this story. I found not infrequently people would give me a brief synopsis of their life, I assumed as they review it themselves knowing they were facing the possible end of it. One chap I met, living in Elmhurst was an inventor. One of his inventions you old farts will remember was the lawn mower starter that you wound up with a crank, then pushed down and the spring loaded gizmo started the engine. This guy invented it but originally he had designed it for cars. By the time he had the prototype up and running, the electric start had been invented so after searching for a use, he came up with lawn mower start technology. Since this mode of starting has disappeared, I'm guessing it wasn't that great.

Hasn’t anybody had their gps lose its mind and go on a 500 mph joyride?

And High Wire, I'd pay money to see your boat go 500 MPH!

Most arts die because they should, anyone can go beat clothing on a stone to clean them, maybe do this in an isolated anchorage when no one is looking, to get cleaner clothing, but by and large, we're happy this method of cleaning has died in most countries. And when I went to Elmhurst College back in the stone ages of typewriters, typing papers for a BA degree, I would have sold my soul to the devil for word processing back then. My papers usually looked like a bird with white out on its feet walking around on my submissions.

I'm happy for the guy with the "stay put" technology, he spent a lot of money for it and he will probably use it maybe ten times in his boating life - he has to get his money's worth. And the old adage - "If you got it, flaunt it" - applies here.

 

[syjos]

I embrace GPS, chartplotter, autopilot, radar, AIS as tools.

Technology is not the culprit. It's some new boat buyers that believe technology will make boating easy, so no attempt to learn seamanship, handling, navigation or etiquett.

They do irritating things like:

Race towards an unoccupied mooring buoy at 6 knots in Reid Harbor, believing they slowed down enough, throwing a wake through anchored boats. The offending boater races to the buoy because if they don't tie to a buoy, they are afraid or do not know how to anchor.

Anchor right next to us when there are plenty of anchorages further away.

Drop 40' of anchor chain in 30' deep water, then drive around for 30 minutes in reverse trying to set the hook.

Not knowing the right of way rules.

Announcing themselves on the VHF through Dodd Narrows, BC, Deception Pass, WA etc.
"Securite, securite, power boat transiting Dodd Narrows"
VHF announcments through Dodd and Deception was unheard of 10 - 15 years ago. Sure large vessels over 70 to 80 feet, log boom tows, extra wide boats and vessels with restricted manuverability should announce their passage. But currently too many small boats announcing their intention clogs up VHF ch 16. New boaters hear others announcing themselves on the VHF and think it's the proper thing to do or they want to sound knowledgeable.

When they announce, they omit the length of their boat or direction headed. Then I hear ten - fifteen boats all making the announcement to transit Dodd one right after another without adequate information. "Yes we know that there will be boats in Dodd Narrows around time of slack." Discussions usually revolve around who was first or how long they been waiting.

There is no benefit to announcing yourself when there are 20 - 30 boats all announcing themselves without adequate information. Most seasoned skippers ignore the announcements and go through when ready.

Most new boaters think Dodd Narrows is a one way channel and tries to get boats coming from the other direction to wait until they transit. They also don't realize which direction has the right of away.

The slack period is fairly short in most narrow channels, and usually crowded so it's important to get through quickly. All the waiting for the other boat to transit first is a time waster.

We don't transit at slack anymore because of the above. We usually transit 1/2 to one hour before slack depending on the current direction. We do not announce ourselves and stay on our side of the channel.

Dodd Narrows and Deception Pass are wide enough for two way passage. Transiting Port Browning Canal, Entrance to Booker Lagoon and other narrow canals should be announced prior to transiting.

The new boaters with fast boats don't realize that they need to slow through the narrows and because they are scared, power through the Narrows throwing a huge wake in narrow confines. They also don't know the passing rules because they blast past us, pretty close without any consideration to the consequences of their wake. They usually ignorantly wave friendly as they pass us too close.

We were following a boat through Dodds once about an hour or two before slack and when he saw the slight waterfall, made a 180 in front of us, almost hit the boat coming from the other direction and almost hit us as he missed the other boat.

Another time, over 10 boaters complained to the Canada Coast Guard via VHF about a log boom going through Dodd Narrows at slack with either too short or no warning. I heard the tug skipper announce the exact time of his transit at one hour, 1/2 hour and just before entering. The complainers only heard the "just before announcement"

We have had vessels call us on the VHF asking if they could follow us through narrow channels since it was their first time. We are glad to let them follow us and my wife usually reassure them on a VHF working channel.

 

[healhustler]

Guys - Did anyone besides me type their reply on a cell phone, or did everyone send in a letter by snail mail? Threads like this make us look like a bunch of dinosaurs waiting to die.

Now hold on there....I can’t be an Old Fart and a Dinosaur at the same time. I mean even my Admiral says I stink, but I’m not extinct!

 

[BandB]

It's like most anything, always some who want to take the lazy way and put no effort into learning. You see it in every field of endeavor. It's frustrating, but it's human nature. When I was young, there was no boaters education required. There was no age requirement either. I like to think I was great at 12 and 13 but I definitely wasn't well educated or trained in boat operation.

 

[Benthic2]

You can't stop technological advancement, nor should you want to!! This is not a boating issue. Tech is improving the way we communicate, listen to music, heat our homes, cook our food...and just about everything else we do. Its not that long ago that when a car reached 100k miles it was just about done, but now "flipping the odometer" is pretty routine.

Like BandB said, its not the technology it's the way people use it. There will always be shortsighted people who don't know their limitations. They will run into problems with a boat no matter how sophisticated it is.

And, there will always be a learning curve with new technology while the bugs get worked out. I am grateful to the early adopters who are willing to have the latest and greatest gadgets. If there weren't people willing to spend the money and take the risks, these ideas would never become mainstream and benefit us all. Sure, at one time people crossed the Atlantic without satelite weather forecasts, only a rough idea of their longitude, no refrideration, hand pumps and leaky boats. Those men had amazing skill and courage that is hard to fathom. I am very glad boating doesn't take that level of skill anymore.

 

[koliver]

I embrace GPS, chartplotter, autopilot, radar, AIS as tools.

They do irritating things like:

Announcing themselves on the VHF through Dodd Narrows, BC, Deception Pass, WA etc.
"Securite, securite, power boat transiting Dodd Narrows"
VHF announcments through Dodd and Deception was unheard of 10 - 15 years ago. Sure large vessels over 70 to 80 feet, log boom tows, extra wide boats and vessels with restricted manuverability should announce their passage. But currently too many small boats announcing their intention clogs up VHF ch 16. New boaters hear others announcing themselves on the VHF and think it's the proper thing to do or they want to sound knowledgeable."

Thank you for this rant. You have identified and echoed one of my pet peeves. Announcements such as this only serve to identify inexperienced boaters, but we usually get other clues to their inexperience so don't need that reminder.

 

[syjos]

I embrace GPS, chartplotter, autopilot, radar, AIS as tools.

They do irritating things like:

Announcing themselves on the VHF through Dodd Narrows, BC, Deception Pass, WA etc.
"Securite, securite, power boat transiting Dodd Narrows"
VHF announcments through Dodd and Deception was unheard of 10 - 15 years ago. Sure large vessels over 70 to 80 feet, log boom tows, extra wide boats and vessels with restricted manuverability should announce their passage. But currently too many small boats announcing their intention clogs up VHF ch 16. New boaters hear others announcing themselves on the VHF and think it's the proper thing to do or they want to sound knowledgeable."

Thank you for this rant. You have identified and echoed one of my pet peeves. Announcements such as this only serve to identify inexperienced boaters, but we usually get other clues to their inexperience so don't need that reminder.

Thanks Koliver,

I appreciate your comment.

 

[psneeld]

Just to be clear...I am neither putting down tech or the people who lean on it....


Grouchy...nope just sitting back and enjoying...


Also happy for the camaraderie I enjoy by being someone who knows both new/old school and the traditions picked up along the way.

In 30 more years, some of the people here may be in the same "boat" ..... they may know different stuff, but some of today's memories may be valuable to the new boaters in 2050.

 

[RT Firefly]

...or no control?


https://www.itv.com/news/2019-06-02/cruise-ship-collides-with-tourist-boat-in-venice/

 

[Codger2]

Originally posted by BandB Interesting that you posted the MOB drill as that is exactly what I plan on doing in the next couple of days. My question, however, is this: After you selected the MOB function on your plotter did the boat automatically start navigating back to the MOB position? Why did it take 2 miles to accomplish the return? [/QUOTE]The above was my post earlier...still waiting for a reply to my question....

 

[firstbase]

I would assume it was due to the new MOB technology. It allows you to assign status to the MOB. "Child", "Wife", "Close Friend", get an immediate Williamson Turn. In this case he probably used the "Ex-Wife" setting.

 

[psneeld]

Usually just stopping and backing down/turning around is better than any fancy MOB maneuvering usually found in manuals or autopilots. Williamson turns are for large vessels that cant stop in a couple hundred feet like most of us can. If you loose sight of the MOB....bad things can happen. In a 2 mile turn, drift can carry the MOB off the trackline.


When a MOB would be critical... one should be running a recorded trackline on the plotter anyhow...then just follow till wherever needed....again...it only wors with speed of return to MOB and hopefully little drift.

 

[OldDan1943]

Originally posted by BandB Interesting that you posted the MOB drill as that is exactly what I plan on doing in the next couple of days. My question, however, is this: After you selected the MOB function on your plotter did the boat automatically start navigating back to the MOB position? Why did it take 2 miles to accomplish the return?

The above was my post earlier...still waiting for a reply to my question....[/QUOTE]

No one noticed?