Tips (Gratuities)

[rwidman]

Nobody says anyone HAS to tip. You must admit that boatyard employees are pretty low on the income scale in the marine service industry. All I am saying is that I have no issues with helping them for helping me. Moreover, in their eyes they may indeed make plenty of money for what they do, but a small gesture that says, "Thanks." or "Please give me your best." is NEVER a bad idea and goes a long way. Sure, that can include doughnuts or even just a thank you note. Even a firm handshake and pat on the back can help, but you are fooling yourself to think you will get the same level of service just because you expect it and give them nothing.

What I find interesting is that Bess and I are very likely on the lower end of the income bracket among TF members. We have both worked in businesses where tips are part of our take-home pay, yet we seem to be in the minority of people willing to make tips a regular part of boating. As it may only add up to a few hundred bucks a year, we will enjoy continuing to make you guys look like a bunch of rich cheapskates. :lol: (just kidding there guys)

Tom-

If you had quoted my entire post, you would have included this part:

I keep a stack of $5 bills (I call them "boat dollars") on hand. I tip the guy at the fuel dock and a dockhand who helps me to dock the boat. I give the dockhands at my marina $25 or so in a Christmas card each year and my wife makes home made salsa and zuchini cake for the dockmaster and office staff.

On the other hand, if you own a home and a boat and your boat is worth more than a dockhand's home (if he even owns one), it seems pretty cheap not to hand him a tip for good service.

By leaving that part out, the impression is that I am some sort of cheapskate. Taken in its entirety, I don't think my post would lead someone to that conclusion.

 

[Jeffrey S]

I tip infrequently. I hate the whole idea of tipping.

I think I'd tip a lot more if I could also hold back a few dollars for the times when I received poor service.

 

[mahal]

dwhatty and Gonzo,

I also question the buyers broker's objectivity for reasons you've cited. That is why I came up with the 10% tip. I've always used a buyer's broker with boats and real estate and have never regretted it. It cost me nothing and I am as less involved with the deal as possible. I am going through this right now in purchasing an apartment building and my agent is great. He also has a property management company which I've hired to do the management. He also knows that I want to be as less involved as possible and he respects that. To me a win win.

 

[bobofthenorth]

I think I'd tip a lot more if I could also hold back a few dollars for the times when I received poor service.

I was going to say "you can" (meaning you can hold back the tip) but then I considered that you may mean "hold back something from the entire bill in lieu of service not received." And I agree wholeheartedly that this would be a great arrangement.

I think part of the disconnect here is that some of the posters return repeatedly to the same marine service providers. In that case their claim that they receive better service as a result of past tips makes sense. For those of us who wander a lot, tipping is just another expense. The service provider will likely never see us again so their current attitude is what it is. Which leads logically to my desire to tip only for exceptional service and my resentment that some employer/employees expect me to tip regardless of the calibre of the service.

OTOH, when I check into a hotel for a long stay I will often make a point of tipping excessively at the start of the stay in order to ensure future service. Maybe that's selfish but its also logical.

 

[Tom.B]

I am some sort of cheapskate. I think my post would lead someone to that conclusion.

:lol::lol::lol:

Sorry Ron... I will do a better next time. I really wasn't picking on you at all, just that that portion of your post is what sparked the train (or train wreck) of thought that I had. It was more of an inspirational quote. Not one to shed you in a bad light. Again, my apologies.

 

[Tom.B]

I think part of the disconnect here is that some of the posters return repeatedly to the same marine service providers. In that case their claim that they receive better service as a result of past tips makes sense. For those of us who wander a lot, tipping is just another expense.

Why should it matter? If you tip at haulout, you stand out from the crowd for your entire stay. If you tip at the end, you walk away with them feeling good and with yourself feeling better that you appreciated their effort.

Of all people, Jeff, you should know that the boating community can be small in some markets. They WILL remember most boats for many reasons. It only cost me a few bucks for them to remember mine and it will always make them feel good about it.

Tom-

 

[bobofthenorth]

Keep telling yourself that Tom. As long as there's guys like you out there then all of us can at least hope to get the level of service that we should be entitled to, without having to bribe the service providers to provide that level of service. After all, as long as I'm polite they don't know until I leave that I'm also a cheap SOB.

 

[Underway]

Compared to the ragbaggers most of you guys are philanthropists.

 

[captrigney]

Compared to the ragbaggers most of you guys are philanthropists.

The owner of a marina I worked at in college HATED sail boaters. He would say: "The wind's free; they think everything else should be"

 

[BruceK]

As an ex real estate agency owner and retired real estate lawyer who as often as not represented buyers, I always had great difficulty wrapping my brain around the concept, and legally recognized practice, of a "buyer's broker" (a broker who is supposed to represent the best interests of a buyer, including advising the buyer as to the current market value of a particular property and helping the buyer negotiate the best price) being paid a commission by and through the seller's broker based on the percentage of the sales price paid by the seller to the seller's broker.

That kind of "buyers broker" sounds hopelessly conflicted. Some real estate buyers here use, and pay a fee to, a "buyers agent" (we call brokers "agents"), to sift listings,look for new or coming listings,negotiate price or bid at auction. Some seller broker/agents would be astounded at (but would probably still ignore) their responsibilities if they checked out the law of Agency. I had some experience in real estate after retiring from law.BruceK

 

[Edelweiss]

The owner of a marina I worked at in college HATED sail boaters. He would say: "The wind's free; they think everything else should be"

--------------------------------------
Heard that a lot back in the 70's and 80's, not so much anymore.

Back in the day, the "free Spirit" crowd who frequently lived on their little floating paradise would take advantage of the marinas unguarded services, to the anger of the harbor master and paying tenants.

Unfortunately, the actions of a few jaded the welcome for the rest. They used to say, "Sail boaters slide in after dark and slip out before dawn." They would often anchor in the bay adjacent to the marina, waiting until the port office closed, tie up in any empty slip, use the power, and port facilities, slip out early in the morning without paying.

The night security officers check every boat in the marina each night against the tenant log now.

Larry B

 

[markpierce]

... They used to say, "Sail boaters slide in after dark and slip out before dawn." They would often anchor in the bay adjacent to the marina, waiting until the port office closed, tie up in any empty slip, use the power, and port facilities, slip out early in the morning without paying.

The first time moored at Ayala Cove (Angel Island, California) a couple months ago, noticed two sailboats arriving late in the afternoon and leaving early morning. seemingly without paying the $30 per night mooring fee.

 

[RickB]

Why should anyone have a problem with the idea of a "buyer's broker"? In large yacht waters it is the norm.

A client decides to buy a boat, he come to a brokerage, which quite often is part of a management firm, and finds a broker to assist in the search. The broker finds a boat, introduces the prospective purchaser and guides the process to its conclusion. If the boat is not under the broker's central agency, his fee is taken from the brokerage fee that is part of any sale which includes a broker. The seller doesn't pay more, the buyer doesn't pay more, the brokers share the fee and if they resent sharing they don't understand their own business. They will get it back next time they take a buyer to another broker. No one brokerage has all the boats.

Does anyone here expect the buyer's advisor to work for free? Just because the buyer doesn't directly pay the commission doesn't mean the work that went into the matchmaking process didn't cost anything ... it was very time and money consuming, all from the buyer's broker's pocket.

 

[dwhatty]

That kind of "buyers broker" sounds hopelessly conflicted.

That was always my concern.

 

[rwidman]

Why should anyone have a problem with the idea of a "buyer's broker"? In large yacht waters it is the norm..........

I understand how it works. I think the thought is that since the buyer's broker is working on commision, he or she may steer the buyer to a more expensive boat or perhaps just "any" boat in order to get a commision or a bigger commision.

 

[rwidman]

The first time moored at Ayala Cove (Angel Island, California) a couple months ago, noticed two sailboats arriving late in the afternoon and leaving early morning. seemingly without paying the $30 per night mooring fee.

Would they have been allowed to anchor in the cove without paying a fee? Does the fee include privileges such as restrooms, showers, trash dumping?

Some local governments have placed mooring balls in former anchorages and outlawed anchoring, presumably to collect revenue from those who formerly were able to anchor in the area for free. That seems unfair. It's not like charging for parking on a street where they own the street. They don't "own" the water.

 

[Underway]

...from another marina manager..."they sail in with one five dollar bill and one pair of underwear and never change either one".

Theft of services is commonplace, especially when they travel in packs. One boat rents a slip to get door lock codes to showers/restrooms, three anchor out. When the sun goes down the fleet of dinks arrives. Next morning the facilities are trashed. The racers in the vaunted Chicago-Mackinaw race are some of the worst offenders. They rent one slip and multiple boats slide in and out through the night. Dump a week of garbage, take on water, mess up the facilities. Loaner power cords are stolen. It's more than a few who have established the reputation for cheapness. And they're proud of it...the salty pirate schtick. Many of them are teaching your kids.

They routinely tell of anchoring for weeks at a stretch in the North Channel or Georgian Bay on Lake Huron.....never visiting a marina. They'll complain of diesel smoke from power boats in the anchorages, but no mention that they obvious dump weeks of sewage in those pristine waters.

Marinas are less vocal about the problem in recent years because sailboats make up the majority of boats that are moving these days...so they have to be nice to the former bad actors (who are still bad actors).

 

[RickB]

I understand how it works. I think the thought is that since the buyer's broker is working on commision, he or she may steer the buyer to a more expensive boat or perhaps just "any" boat in order to get a commision or a bigger commision.

The buyer tells the broker what kind of boat, what size, what price range, and the broker finds boats that fit those "desirements" and from then on it is the buyer's decision.

I don't think I have ever come across a buyer who lives and works in a vacuum where he or she isn't aware of what the market has to offer. Unless you are buying a boat on a credit card at used boat lot a broker has a great deal of interest in seeing that the buyer gets what he wants and trusts the broker enough to develop a long term scope of relationship that normally extends beyond the point of sale.

The worst outcome I have seen in this business occurred when new buyer purchased a boat without a broker in the middle.

 

[Tom.B]

I would prefer that brokers that insist that they be called a "Buyers Broker" work ONLY on a flat fee paid by the buyer. That way, to me, is the only way complete objectivity can be obtained.

 

[CPseudonym]

As a former Realtor I can not begin to fathom the paranoia about a "Buyers Broker". It's not exactly a new concept or anything. As in any transaction, if you feel your representative has less than your best interest as their focus fire them and get another.

Before a fire I had letters from former clients that I represented on both sides of the same transaction(buyer and seller of the same home) stating at no time did they feel I was not representing their best interest. THAT is a situation with opportunity for a less than ethical broker, not representing only the buyer or seller.

 

[CPseudonym]

As for tipping, the subject of the thread. Put me in the cheapskate camp. I tip exceptional service exceptionally well. I don't tip at the gas pump.

 

[RickB]

As a former Realtor I can not begin to fathom the paranoia about a "Buyers Broker".

As one who works with brokers and buyers of yachts, I too cannot fathom the paranoia. Does the anti buyer's broker crowd think that the seller's broker or a plastic hammer surveyor are going to work for his interests?

 

[Marin]

Why should anyone have a problem with the idea of a "buyer's broker"? In large yacht waters it is the norm.

A client decides to buy a boat, he come to a brokerage, which quite often is part of a management firm, and finds a broker to assist in the search. The broker finds a boat, introduces the prospective purchaser and guides the process to its conclusion.

While we certainly did not buy a yacht, this is exactly the process we followed and we would never have found the boat we have today without our "buyer's broker." Like real estate, brokers often learn about boats coming onto the market before they are actually listed. This was the case with our boat. Owner wanted to unload it as he'd just bought a larger and newer GB. Told a broker in Alameda to sell the GB36, that broker called the GB dealer he had done business with in the past in Bellingham/Seattle and asked if they knew anyone who might be interested in an old GB36. A few minutes after he faxed the specs to the Seattle office, we walked in.

Our "buyer's broker" accompanied us to California to check out the boat and his experience with and knowledge of Grand Banks boats was invaluable to us in making our decision. After we decided to buy the boat, on his own he negotiated a cost-to-repair reduction in the price for the autopilot that none of us had known the boat even had until we saw it.. Later, after the boat had been trucked to Tacoma and had a number of things done to it, he accompanied me on it's two-day maiden (for us) voyage up to Bellingham which was great since other than previous charters we were unfamiliar with this kind of boat. And for all this he received what to us was a surprisingly small commission.

In fact we felt sort of bad about it so we gave him a $200 "bonus." When we next returned to the boat we found two brand new bronze "Grand Banks" boarding plates on the settee table, the ones that mount on the caprail at the boarding gate. Our boat did not have them and even back then they were very expensive to buy new. I'm sure the dealer got a substantial reduction in the cost but our broker was certainly under no obligation to supply them for us.

What did we get out of it all? A boat which while old has served us very well now for 14 years. What did he get out of it? Some customers who ultimately bought boats that came to him based on our recommendation.

 

[THD]

I think the difference, in fact snd in perception, between a selling broker and a buyer's broker is pretty clear irrespective of the source of the payment-the selling broker's obligation is to the owner of a specific boat, his obligation is to get the best deal he can for the owner of that boat alone. The buying broker's obligation is to the buyer, to get hiim the best deal on a predefined boat type, not that specific boat If the selling broker's boat is not the best deal and the best fit, the buying broker moves on. The selling broker is still tied to selling that boat.

 

[Tom.B]

So you really believe that a "buyer's broker" would voluntarily try and fully negotiate a seller into a lower price, thus cutting his or her own commission without prejudice or bias? It's not possible... THAT is my point.

And with that, I think I must bow out of this discussion, especially since it is so off the OP topic.

 

[rwidman]

I think the difference, in fact snd in perception, between a selling broker and a buyer's broker is pretty clear irrespective of the source of the payment-the selling broker's obligation is to the owner of a specific boat, his obligation is to get the best deal he can for the owner of that boat alone. The buying broker's obligation is to the buyer, to get hiim the best deal on a predefined boat type, not that specific boat If the selling broker's boat is not the best deal and the best fit, the buying broker moves on. The selling broker is still tied to selling that boat.

I don't konw how this got here from tipping the haulout staff but;

A seller's broker is paid a percentage of the sale price of the boat. His/her imcentive is to get the highest price for the buyer and the highest commision for him/herself.

A buyer's broker is in the conflicted position of trying to get the best value for the customer but that could mean a lower commision for the broker.

It's like when I had a stock broker and he would recommend that I sell one stock and buy another. He was making a commision on the sale so I was never sure if he was watching out for me or if he needed money for a new car.

 

[Marin]

So you really believe that a "buyer's broker" would voluntarily try and fully negotiate a seller into a lower price, thus cutting his or her own commission without prejudice or bias? It's not possible... THAT is my point.

Of course it's possible. We're talking about people here, not machines. It totally depends on the person acting as your "buyer's broker." In our case, our "buyer's broker" negotiated a reduction in the boat's price on his own initiative after we discovered a piece of equipment that wasn't even listed to be on the boat didn't work. And we continue to hear from local GB buyers who use him to help them find boats that he looks out for their interests the same as he looked out for ours. In some cases--- since the company he's the lead broker at tends to work with newer GBs--- he's gotten the price of a boat reduced by tens of thousands of dollars for his customers.

But that's him. It's why we continue to recommend him to people who ask us who a good person is to talk to about finding a GB. Are all "buyers brokers" like this? I have no clue. He's the only one we've ever used.

 

[jeffnick]

I may tip before the work begins, and maybe again after. I want to be differentiated from the rich cheap bastards.

 

[rwidman]

I may tip before the work begins, and maybe again after. I want to be differentiated from the rich cheap bastards.

But Jeff, in your case you're doing the work yourself so do you tip yourself?

 

[markpierce]

Would they have been allowed to anchor in the cove without paying a fee? Does the fee include privileges such as restrooms, showers, trash dumping?

Some local governments have placed mooring balls in former anchorages and outlawed anchoring, presumably to collect revenue from those who formerly were able to anchor in the area for free. That seems unfair. It's not like charging for parking on a street where they own the street. They don't "own" the water.

Angel Island is a state park. There are several but less-protected anchorage locations around the island, but no anchoring that I'm aware of in Ayala Cove. There are boat berths for day use only and the moorage for day/night use. There are toilet facilities and trash cans ashore. ... Hate to imagine the chaos of unregulated anchoring in the cove, especially with the quirky tidal currents along with the frequent ferry services.