Thoughts on widebody boats

[Islanddreamer]

Walk around with no steps. Helps when trying to move around the boat quickly and / or in the dark.

 

[FlyWright]

I think the Helmsman 38 is an interesting and functional full width salon layout.

 

[GFC]

Our boat has a walkaround deck with 3 steps leading up from the cockpit to the side deck. Even with that we have a fairly decent size saloon.

 

[FlyWright]

...in all fairness, Mike, your boat is about 20 ft longer than the 38E. A beaut for sure, but in a whole different league from 40-ish footers.

 

[AusCan]

.....or 30-ish footers. You guys have more than 2 options.

 

[Insequent]

Walkaround side decks were high on my list of wants. Now I've had them for 5 years I find that I don't use the parts adjacent the saloon very much at all. Sure, the boarding gates are there but they could be further back, at the cockpit. Going out of the pilothouse doors (almost amidship) and around the Portuguese bridge and onto the foredeck is something we do all the time. But access to the cockpit is typically via the saloon rather than along the side decks.

So the Helmsman 38 style would be OK. But better with internal stairs to flybridge. And of course the Portuguese bridge is essential!

 

[theTopsail]

There were many different variations of this boat but none gave up the interior space for side decks. Some had a ladder and large hatch in the vee berth as an alternative way of going to the foredeck.

This version below was on of the more common styles. They were often used as charter boats and to get approval for this in Australia they required high bow rails, but no side rails.

Quite an interesting design. I suppose going through the hatch from the foredeck to the cabin could work out however if I am soaking wet in foul weather gear, I would prefer to keep salt water out of the cabin!

 

[theTopsail]

We have a wide body, and it is only a minor inconvenience. We just make an effort to dock on our stbd side where the walkway is. But port side is still accessible - just at a different level. From the cockpit you can still walk the port perimeter all the way forward, but most of it is from the boatdeck/pilot house level. From the cockpit, you just go up the stairs to the boa deck, and continue forward along the outside edge of the boat. It's a straight shot to the bow. Also note that on the stbd side here is a set of stairs to the bow as well - hey are just forward of the saloon rather han aft. We just hang fenders down from the upper rails, and run lines from different locations. And we have run through many locks both port and stbd side tied. The only real inconvenience is that there is no boarding gate on the port side at dock level, so you need to board using the swim platform. Again, no big deal.

I think it's worth it for the extra space in the salon (OK, RT, Saloon). But if the whole port side were not accessible, which I think might be the case with some designs, I'm sure I would feel differently.

I assume when you dock on your port side, you can only run lines from hawses on the bow and stern?

 

[Al]

The balance between deck space and interior space comes back around to the boat cottage ratio issue. Many see and use their boats as a cottage on the water and wide decks take away from interior space. Others who want or need access to the entire boat including the side decks will go more toward the boat side of the ratio and trade interior space for the access. There is no ultimate right or wrong just preference. If a sizable boat is short of crew or uses locks often the side decks low free-board of the boat side of the equation comes to the fore. On the other hand if a boat spends a lot of time on the hook or at a dock and living aboard comfort is most important access becomes less important. My personal situation is single handing a 50+ ft LOA vessel including locking so full access and low free board were purposely designed into the build of my boat as were many other design aspects meant to meet the specific use patterns. Most boat owners do not have the luxury of designing for use and have to pick from what is available fortunately the is a wide range of choice.

I like your thinking! Particularly the bold print statement. Thanks

 

[AusCan]

AusCan,
These two pics show the main salon size/space and the side deck space wasted.

Same sized boat as yours. Ours 10'6" boat width. Relative to this post perhaps the original design was considerably narrower.

Eric,
I just measured my width at deck level. It's only 8' 8" at the widest point and 8'2" and the aft end of the cabin, so the interior would be much tighter than yours with walk around decks. I've got about as much interior space as possible with this narrow hull.

 

[Peter B]

There were many different variations of this boat but none gave up the interior space for side decks. Some had a ladder and large hatch in the vee berth as an alternative way of going to the foredeck.

This version below was on of the more common styles. They were often used as charter boats and to get approval for this in Australia they required high bow rails, but no side rails.

Yup, that there is a Cuddles 30. We had the big brother, the Cuddles 35, later called the Resort 35, because it sounded sorta more posh. But the layout and lack of proper side decks was the same, and as I recollect it, the lack of the side decks never seemed a huge issue.
Pic 1
I also found that when locking through on canal boats in the UK we had no issues re the absolute lack of side decks. You just work out a system.
Pic 2
One other advantage of no side decks, not thus far mentioned I think, is that the extra buoyancy afforded by those wide cabin sides, as long as the windows are appropriately strong, means more likelihood of self-righting in a severe knockdown.

 

[Bay Pelican]

I assume the starboard preference has to do with the side of the boat your conn is on?

Conn is in middle both in pilot house and flying bridge. Main engine pulls to starboard in reverse. Thus I got use to docking on starboard side when possible.

Now with a dinghy crane the choice is almost mandatory. The crane only works to the port side so if I want to use the dinghy in a marina it is docking on the starboard side even if I have to back in.

This of course is not applicable when going through a lock or pulling into a haul out slip.

 

[FF]

"I assume the starboard preference has to do with the side of the boat your conn is on?"

Perhaps ,, it is keyed on the prop rotation for a single screw boat.

Far easier to dock on one side than the other .

 

[theTopsail]

Conn is in middle both in pilot house and flying bridge. Main engine pulls to starboard in reverse. Thus I got use to docking on starboard side when possible.

Now with a dinghy crane the choice is almost mandatory. The crane only works to the port side so if I want to use the dinghy in a marina it is docking on the starboard side even if I have to back in.

This of course is not applicable when going through a lock or pulling into a haul out slip.

Ah so you have an clockwise rotating propeller. I guess it makes sense having the conn on the centreline. Lots of sport yachts have the conn offset. From what you are saying, it looks like your particular boat was designed with starboard side dockings in mind.

 

[ranger58sb]

It all depends on your docking style. I never access the foredeck when docking. Its much easier to use a midship spring line which runs to the cockpit. I don't leave the cockpit until the boat is hard up against the dock,then tie off the bow from the dock. Its much easier than scampering around the boat.

I can't ever resist trying to learn new methods with spring lines...

Would you be willing to, maybe in another thread, describe your technique in more depth? You're running a forward spring from approx midships to an aft cleat? Side tie-up on a face dock? Or in a 4-way slip? Or...?

-Chris

 

[Nomad Willy]

"New methods with spring lines"

Yes this just gave me a new idea that many others have probably been doing for years.

I've always attached my spring lines from midships and run one aft and one fwd. In Alaska it seemed natural and worked well. Never was a proplem tying up spring lines alongside the boats foreward and aft of us. We used long spring lines and tied them around bull rails opposite blocks under the main rail. Lots of options. My aft spring line was frequently longer than the boat.

Well now that we're down in Wash State seldom do we see bull rails so it's cleats. And I'm not inclined to tie on top of a cleat someone else is using. So I feel we need to keep our tie ups within the length of our boat. That = shorter spring lines w less spring in them.

But things could be made better by tying the springs onto the same cleat as the bow and stern lines. Don't like cleats w more than one tie but often it's a necessity. Was bow in at Poulsbo the other day and the dummies offered no bow line cleat at all. First cleat going aft was almost amidships. Not good. And they claim to be seagoing vikings.

I wonder why there aren't more bull rails down here. Looks like the floats were designed by people that drove motor homes and not boats.

So now I usually tie the springs to bow and stern cleats. But that makes for short spring lines .... w little spring. But the obvious (as occured to me reading the above) is to attach the aft spring as far fwd as possible/practical and the fwd spring to the stern cleat. That would make the springs much longer and thus better. I like it. May not work well in the real world though as the cleats are often too small even for one line. Ideally one should have (for a relatively small boat) a pair of cleats fore and aft about a foot or so appart.

 

[HopCar]

My little boat has very narrow side decks and no other access to the bow. It's not an issue for me as I'm comfortable crab walking with my heels hanging over the water and a firm grip on the cabin side hand rail.

My wife just won't do it. Access to the bow from inside or an offset cabin would make things easier for us.

Where do you mount spring cleats on a "wide body" boats?

 

[theTopsail]

The issue with spring lines is compounded when you look at boats with higher freeboards and interesting hawse locations... A month ago I was looking around a marina after going for a daysail and I saw a boat that had springlines running from bow and stern hawses... Tried to draw a picture down below...

I dont know how this would work in windy conditions however the yacht seemed to be fine that day in 15-20kts of wind.

 

[theTopsail]

Where do you mount spring cleats on a "wide body" boats?

From pictures I have seen, there sometimes are cleats which can be accessed if you are on a dock. I have no clue how a line would be attached to them while a boat was underway.

 

[dhays]

Does anyone have experience operating a widebody trawler? I personally think the upsides of having a full walkaround boat outweigh the space you gain by absorbing the side deck into the saloon however I am quite interested to hear opposing viewpoints!

When my wife and I contemplated moving from sail to power, walk around decks were something I considered a "must have". Over time as we looked at boats, I reluctantly and slowly changed my mind. We ended up buying a used North Pacific 43. This has a full width saloon and therefore no walk around, or even "cling around" side decks.

For our size of boat, not having the side decks is a good trade off to having more interior living space here in the PNW. I think side decks would be nice but having the interior space is nicer. We have owned the boat now for a year.

 

[theTopsail]

When my wife and I contemplated moving from sail to power, walk around decks were something I considered a "must have". Over time as we looked at boats, I reluctantly and slowly changed my mind.

I have been thinking about sail vs power a bit today. Almost all of my experience is on sailing vessels where we tend to spend most of our time on deck. On a power boat, I am starting to realise much less time is spent on deck because you don't really have anything to tend such as sails. Did something like that thought cross your mind while thinking about walk around decks?

 

[sunchaser]

Covered side decks on our vessel are for us quite nice in the wet PNW. Getting out of the rain is also high on our list for a water tight fly bridge. Where one boats, the size of boat and budget, availability of vessels (thanks Ed) and side window design enter into the discussion.

 

[dhays]

I have been thinking about sail vs power a bit today. Almost all of my experience is on sailing vessels where we tend to spend most of our time on deck. On a power boat, I am starting to realise much less time is spent on deck because you don't really have anything to tend such as sails. Did something like that thought cross your mind while thinking about walk around decks?

For me it was just a matter of emotional comfort. Growing up sailing, I am used to the need to be able to get to any point on deck quickly when under sail. Too much time racing I think. With power, that is not an issue.

Docking a sailboat is different as well. My sailboat is a 40' boat with a high freeboard. It is a big step down from the deck to the dock. While NP has an even higher freeboard, Most of the time the crew simply steps off the boat at the stern, so no up or down.

It was just a matter of having trouble envisioning something other than full side decks. Once I got past that, it hasn't been a problem.

Again, if I was to have a 50'+ boat, instead of a 40'+ boat, I would be looking for side decks as a desirable feature.

 

[ranger58sb]

"New methods with spring lines"

Yes this just gave me a new idea that many others have probably been doing for years.

I've always attached my spring lines from midships and run one aft and one fwd. In Alaska it seemed natural and worked well. Never was a proplem tying up spring lines alongside the boats foreward and aft of us. We used long spring lines and tied them around bull rails opposite blocks under the main rail. Lots of options. My aft spring line was frequently longer than the boat.

Ah. I was actually focused on how AusCan uses that spring line to dock... not on how to tie up the boat after docking.

We routinely use a forward spring line to dock, but that would be from a point on shore up near the bow, not from amidships... and running to a forward midships cleat since that's where warping will keep the boat into the dock while we do other stuff.

If we started with a spring on the dock near amidships, and ran it to an aft cleat... unmonitored force on that kind of spring would pivot the whole bow of our boat away from the dock...

So I'm interested in knowing more about what he meant and how it works.

-Chris

 

[McGillicuddy]

I had a couple of 'must haves' on my ideal boat, one of which was side decks. Having previously owned a 32' motor sailor with side decks narrower than my size 10 shoes, I wasn't ready to concede that need. In order to have two side decks and a Salon width that was acceptable I ended up with a 52' boat. I had been shopping in the mid 40's foot range.
I have side doors both port and starboard 18" wide decks on both sides and high rails that transition to solid bulwarks at midship. Helm is midship. Surprisingly I can single hand the boat in and out of marinas in decent weather. (2 engines and bow thrust available). Also has main deck and fly bridge control stations. There are multiple methods of attaching springs, I always put a midship to forward spring on first, slack it slowly until stern is in position, make it fast and work the other lines from there. Easy Peasy. In prep for docking I run the spring line to the stern of the boat and make it fast midship. As I back into the slip, I drop the eye on the first available cleat, continue backing until it is acting as a forward spring. Then with the inboard engine in clutch astern, I adjust the line until my swim platform is 1' from the end of the dock. Then make fast.
I alternate berthing port and starboard so I can give each side of the hull a good wash.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Couldn't agree more Dave.

 

[Nomad Willy]

The issue with spring lines is compounded when you look at boats with higher freeboards and interesting hawse locations... A month ago I was looking around a marina after going for a daysail and I saw a boat that had springlines running from bow and stern hawses... Tried to draw a picture down below...

I dont know how this would work in windy conditions however the yacht seemed to be fine that day in 15-20kts of wind.

Whether you use hawse holes or not .... same gig.
But as per your dwg l will need to work within the length of the boat and almost always double tie.

Because of the double tying I should probably scrap my 5/8ths mooring lines for 1/2". Just made up all my mooring lines though.

 

[dhays]

Ah. I was actually focused on how AusCan uses that spring line to dock... not on how to tie up the boat after docking.



We routinely use a forward spring line to dock, but that would be from a point on shore up near the bow, not from amidships... and running to a forward midships cleat since that's where warping will keep the boat into the dock while we do other stuff.



If we started with a spring on the dock near amidships, and ran it to an aft cleat... unmonitored force on that kind of spring would pivot the whole bow of our boat away from the dock...



So I'm interested in knowing more about what he meant and how it works.



-Chris

There is a difference between tying the boat, and controlling the boat when first landing. I will often take a line with me attackeh to the forward midship cleat .when stepping off. Another NP43 owner that single hands most of the time will have a lone on the aft midship cleat and run it forward so he steps off with two lines. Easy to control the boat at that point then make your dock lines fast and adjust.

 

[AusCan]

I can't ever resist trying to learn new methods with spring lines...

Would you be willing to, maybe in another thread, describe your technique in more depth? You're running a forward spring from approx midships to an aft cleat? Side tie-up on a face dock? Or in a 4-way slip? Or...?

-Chris

Chris,
I have a spring line with a loop on either end which I leave hanging loosely between a cleat on my foredeck (abeam of my mast) and the cleat at my cockpit on the starboard side. As I enter the home berth, my wife unhooks the cockpit end and loops it over the first dock cleat. I gently take up the tension and leave the boat idling in forward gear while turning the wheel hard to port. The tightening spring line pulls the bow tight to the dock. With the rudder turned hard away from the dock, the stern is pushed into the dock while power is applied. If there is a strong wind or current pushing me off the finger, a bit more throttle may be necessary.

With the boat idling in gear and a single line holding the boat in place, I casually get off the boat and tie off the bow and stern at my leisure.

I use the same method when I am singlehanded, but have to be ready to scoot back to the helm to reverse out if I miss looping the dock cleat.

Their are two critical point if using this method.
1. The looped spring line has to be the correct length to allow your bow to come with a foot of the dock but not hit it. Don't get your lines mixed up.
2. Positioning of the midship deck cleat is important to get the best balance of pulling both the bow and stern in to the finger. On my boat it is slightly ahead of center, but it is best to test it out before mounting a permanent deck cleat.

 

[dhays]

AusCan, to make it easy jump create a very large loop at one end. I did that and it is easy to toss over the cleat. When stretched lengthwise that loop is about 4 feet I think.

Ok, I set my iced coffee down and walked all the way from the bow where I was sitting in the sun (something I never do) to the aft cockpit where that line is hanging. The loop is about 8' long. So unless my mental math fails me that is a diameter of about 5'.