Think I need to change plans

[C lectric]

Originally Posted by TugYacht_33

i kind of have to lean with the OP on this "rant"

all things being the same except for maybe a second engine, bigger windlass, extra staterooms etc....

does an extra 20 feet and maybe 2 feet of beam warrant a difference of 300,000 dollars between a 30 foot boat and a 50 footer?

Yes, often it does. Look at the weights of the two. Look at the gear that is used in each. Look at the materials used. Look at the engines used. Look at the mold costs. Look a the volumes sold.

The used market is very volatile. Pick a bad year [depending of course on which end you are on] where fewer boats are put on the market and demand is high and the prices may be driven up for those that are available. Even locations have their effects.

An extra 20 ft of length and 2 or 3 ft of beam is a HUGE difference.

Do I like it , no, but to a large degree I understand it.


Don't be in a rush. As said there are deals around. You must become knowledgeable about what you want, need [not always the same] and familiar enough to know a good one from the not so good.

One thing I see/hear about too often is people leave the finding of a boat surveyor and an engine surveyor to the last minute. Don't do that. Start looking for good ones now. You should be identifying those long before you find the boat you think you want.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by C lectric

One thing I see/hear about too often is people leave the finding of a boat surveyor and an engine surveyor to the last minute. Don't do that. Start looking for good ones now. You should be identifying those long before you find the boat you think you want.

That assumes he knows where he'll find the boat.

[Seevee]

Originally Posted by FF

"they are significantly cheaper to operate (with diesel) than a 38ft gas boat, probably half as much."

This is only true if maint , oil changes , filters and repair parts are not counted , and the gasser is operated well above trawler speeds.

Operate at the Sq RT of the LWL for speed in Knots as many trawlers do (-30-50 hp) and gas is cheap to keep.

Gas is more at the pump for starters. Now is you can compare identical boats with the same HP, same speed, the gasser still consumes more gallons.

A vacuum gauge is a great help on a gasser , to stay below the secondaries opening , if you want to go a bit faster.

"Plus I think they just look cool."

Ego is expensive ,

A $4.00 spark plug vs a $75 injector rebuild , the requirement for super cleaned diesel fuel and the ease of repair make the seasonal or annual cost of diesels at least on par with gas.

The spark plug is way more that $4 and you have injectors on a gasser. Plus manifolds, risers, elbows,

Now if you run 200 -300+ days a year the diesel will have an advantage in fuel cost , and the higher repair PM costs can be OK.

And with that amount of time per year, you'll change engines every 3 to 4 years with a gasser and probably never with a diesel.

At local cruising 200 hours a year many times a gas boat is a far better buy , the difference in interest on a loan may pay for all summers cruise
Yes, purchase price is a lot cheaper, but I didn't say that it wasn't, just operating costs.

FF,

Yes, the gas "operating" costs are about half as much. And, like Donna, I'd take diesel over gas given the choice. And once you get into trawler type boats, and larger boats, most of them are diesel. And there's deals on diesels our there, just in the last year I've seen a really nice 35 ft Carver go for $75 and theres a really nice 32 Grand Banks look a like with a rebuilt engine and two new gas tanks for $50.

Unless the boat is a Marina queen, the operating cost of gas is significantly more.

[FF]

"Gas is more at the pump for starters."

Not for a couple of decades, Gas here in FL is $2.35 Diesel $ 2.85 right now.

A low priced diesel will be 25 -40 years old ,and is seldom a turnkey boat
, a low priced gasser 10-15 years old , and will have spark plugs , only new flyweight gassers use turbos and electronic injection.

"And with that amount of time per year, you'll change engines every 3 to 4 years with a gasser and probably never with a diesel."

The long lasting diesels are large and expensive.

In rec boats few diesels get over 10,000 hours with perhaps 15,000 realistic for a commercial boat , before overhaul. Full rebuild $10,000 to $15,000 plus R&R.

This is for an industrial duty diesel engine , nor a converted farm implement.

It can be "in framed" for about $2,000 of parts and a hefty labor bill.

A std V8 gasser should run 4,000 hours before needing a rebuild ,

BUT a brand new crate engine is about $4,000 and will be far more efficient than the 15 year old gasser it replaces..

If image is more important than operating costs for a few hundred hours a year , by all means buy a big diesel.

The "loop" is the one run that will go over the usual 200hrs a year ,but will hardly wear out a gas engine.

[Tom.B]

Originally Posted by OntheHook

Purchasing the next boat (Trawler type) 45' to 52', we were hoping to stay under $200k.

Thinking of changing plans to a cockpit motoryacht?

That is a pretty big trawler. Do you need that much boat? Do you have a large family? However, I am surprised you can't find one with a $200k budget. I am not in the broker biz, but it SEEMS like it is currently a seller's market. What I do know is that because of this year's hurricane season, there will be some market turmoil. Up or down... buyer or seller... Who knows? My point is that you kinda have a valid rant. Why, indeed, can't you get a nice 45' trawler for $200k?

Now, regarding the motoryacht thing. As a motoryacht owner, it isn't a bad way to go, but it IS different than "trawling". You really just have to sort of commit to a fast-boat lifestyle. These big turbo motors gunk up with soot (coking) unless you are at "cruising speed" (80% of WOT) most of the time. Our last owner went slow a lot (all the time) and I am still trying to reverse the build-up. That said, with great distances between fuel stations on the lakes, you will need to sit down and do the math to see if it will work in your cruising area and within your budget.

Good luck with your search and welcome out of the shadows of TF

[Capitaine R]

"Gas is more at the pump for starters."

Not for a couple of decades, Gas here in FL is $2.35 Diesel $ 2.85 right now.

Auto Gas station prices and Marina prices are a lot different. Here in Florida, the last time I looked (last weekend)gas was 3.90 a gallon at my local marina.

[smitty477]

Originally Posted by OntheHook

But BandB I am a truck guy, F350 crew cab long box to pull the 5th wheel
Also to your earlier comment, yes our future cruising will probably be limited to the Great Lakes. In particular, circumnavigate Lake Superior. The remote eastern shore has limited services and fuel stops. Thought a trawler would be perfect due to smaller more efficient engines and larger fuel tanks. Range is a problem with our current boat.

GFC, it would be great to find a fresh water, low hour trawler in my area but there aren't many on the market. I've been looking alone the eastern coast, florida and the Gulf. So far I've made two trips to the gulf region looking at available boats. Half a loop to get her home would be a fun trip!

The boat we last sold went to a couple operating out of the Detroit area with similar goals and needs. They bought our 1995 Bayliner 4788 pilothouse for less than $150K in great shape with less than 2,000 hours on the mains. It had very good range at hull speeds or less, good tankage and a draft and air clearance that would favor a loop trip. Fuel was 444 gallons with about 424 usable and at 6 knots or less you are at or above 3 nmpg. You could also travel at 15-16 knots at just under 1 nmpg if the need arose. We brought the boat as far as Kingston NY and they traveled from there to Detroit over the next 7 days.

[aboatman]

In my experience, marina gas is more than marina diesel buy quite a bit. Marina gas is usually actual gasoline, not adulterated with ethanol and it's usually mid or high octane, not the 87 octane "regular" sold at land based stations.

[C lectric]

Originally Posted by BandB

That assumes he knows where he'll find the boat.

Yes, correct. But even so many purchases are not too far away that some looking can minimize the panic of gotta find someone fast.

[firstbase]

Originally Posted by OntheHook

GFC, it would be great to find a fresh water, low hour trawler in my area but there aren't many on the market. I've been looking alone the eastern coast, florida and the Gulf. So far I've made two trips to the gulf region looking at available boats. Half a loop to get her home would be a fun trip!

Took us most of a year to find a wonderful 30 year old Grand Banks 42'. After looking at many boats that had spent their lives in Florida I stayed away from them for the most part. Rode hard and put up wet as they say due to 12 months of use and the sun. In the end I found a boat, in Florida oddly enough, that spent 25 of its 30 years on the Great Lakes and stored in a boat shed for 8 months or so every year. Last 4 years she was doing the loop and in the Bahamas. Teak decks in excellent shape, some minor league blisters, Ford Lehman 135's at 4,100 hours w/oil analysis that couldn't have been better and two trannys that were rebuilt 4 years ago, same analysis results. Fuel tanks excellent, no rust inside or out. All of the major systems in very good and serviceable shape. Have done some remedial work i.e. replaced a head because it was old and tired and wifey wanted to push a button rather than pump raw water. Bought it last March for $160K and spent another $10K to get her ship shape, bottom job, head, through hulls serviced, etc. They are out there, you just have to go find one. Also, my searching was the best learning experience I could have gone through. Wouldn't know 25% of what I know now if I had found a boat right out of the gate. Just my $.02. Keep looking!

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by OntheHook

Thinking of changing plans to a cockpit motoryacht?

Lots of ways that could probably work well enough. You can often run it more like a trawler, sea states permitting and with some attention to engine operations. And short, faster hops might not break your (fuel) bank anyway. We sometimes go half a season or more before needing to refuel...

Originally Posted by Seevee

If looking for a specific boat, there's a though to write to everyone that owns that particular boat. Although there's some work involved, you can get owners names from the state it's registered in and just mail letters. I've done that a few times with excellent success. It's surprising to find there are a ton of owners "getting ready" to sell, but haven't listed their boat yet, and often there's a good deal waiting. You become a quick and easy solution to their problem

There are owner's clubs too; it's usually easy enough to join to ask about specific models and so forth. Availability, known faults if any, etc.

Originally Posted by Tom.B

You really just have to sort of commit to a fast-boat lifestyle. These big turbo motors gunk up with soot (coking) unless you are at "cruising speed" (80% of WOT) most of the time.

Lots of threads here and on boatdiesel suggesting that's not true as a blanket statement. And it may be more applicable to some diesels versus others. Proper load, proper engine temps, etc. required... but that doesn't always seem to equate to 80% WOT.

FWIW, our diesels will get to the correct operating range at 1100 RPM and above, and once there, will remain there (as near as I can tell) at all RPM. We're not really heavy-duty anglers, but in April/May we do spend lots of hours trolling on one engine at idle... afrer bringing load/temps up, and with a follow-on quick run on plane as we return to the marina. Also, I think our average on this current trip, approx 585 NM so far, has been about 8 knots, and even that was mostly affected by a 100 NM leg at planing speed. Note: we do not have a trawler.

-Chris

[OntheHook]

Thanks for most of the replies. Some of the replies however seem to misunderstand my thoughts in the original post. I will try to further explain by paraphrasing some of the replies and expand on my thoughts.

Why do you need a trawler if just using on the Great Lakes

For anyone thats cruised these water will understand this. These waters experience fast moving weather systems fairly often. The large waves created are short period and will kick your a*s and it can be long distances from any shelter. Thought a trawler type at hull speed with high bow and more weight than a mass produced cruiser would be ideal.

Gas or diesel, what difference does it make with only 300 hours in 11 years

You may have missed the part about me retiring in a year. Also I never said I've had the boat since new. But you're partly correct, I don't use the current boat very much anymore. I only have weekends and the marina is 3 hours from home. With our limited time, going to the same places all the time has gotten boring. So instead for cruising to go get a $500 hamburger we are doing short day rides and spending time at the marina with friends. We are ready to cruise again and looking for a boat with range.

Why do you need a boat so large

Don't really know yet what we could get by with. The next boat will be a live aboard, full time for 6 months, no land based home. Our current boat does not have a liveable layout. Works great for weekends and vacations, but not enough storage or cruising range for full time use.

Someone also mentioned bigger cost more for slip and storage. I understand that as we've had a marina slipped / stored boat for many years.

Deals to be found out there, ie. Searay, Carver, others

That is entirely the point of my original post, there are reasonable prices for motor yachts out there and it has me thinking that my be the route to consider. I'm not finding what I would call comparable in the trawler market unless they are 30 or more years old.

Really do appreciate all the replies. A lot to think about.

[OntheHook]

On more thing if I may. If we go the motor yacht route with the bigger horsepower engines designed for planning the boat, is that going to cause issues with hour after hour of slow speeds?

[BandB]

Originally Posted by OntheHook

Don't misunderstand your post, just hadn't heard your reasoning until now.

For anyone thats cruised these water will understand this. These waters experience fast moving weather systems fairly often. The large waves created are short period and will kick your a*s and it can be long distances from any shelter. Thought a trawler type at hull speed with high bow and more weight than a mass produced cruiser would be ideal.

Familiar with the Great Lakes and enjoyed them in a non-trawler, although larger than you're considering. Trawler wouldn't be my choice, but understand your reasoning.

Gas or diesel, what difference does it make with only 300 hours in 11 years

You may have missed the part about me retiring in a year. Also I never said I've had the boat since new. But you're partly correct, I don't use the current boat very much anymore. I only have weekends and the marina is 3 hours from home. With our limited time, going to the same places all the time has gotten boring. So instead for cruising to go get a $500 hamburger we are doing short day rides and spending time at the marina with friends. We are ready to cruise again and looking for a boat with range.

Perhaps missed the part about where you'll be. If you're still going to be in the area you currently live then still only half the year and still use may be limited. Takes a long time to recover cost from fuel savings.

Why do you need a boat so large

I fully agree with you on larger boat for your purposes.

Deals to be found out there, ie. Searay, Carver, others

That is entirely the point of my original post, there are reasonable prices for motor yachts out there and it has me thinking that my be the route to consider. I'm not finding what I would call comparable in the trawler market unless they are 30 or more years old.

That's because the boats aren't comparable. Didn't cost the same to build or the same new. Trawlers are much more expensive than cruisers like those mentioned. There is a lot more boat in a 50' trawler than a 50' Sea Ray. By comparison a Kadey Krogen 52 new will run 65-70% more than a 52 Carver.
Your question is like asking why you can't find a used Mercedes for the same price as a Ford of the same year. .

Some follow up above.

[ljk]

OP, not sure your thinking about comfort on the Lakes vs. the ocean are correct.

Our PT 41 trawler was way more comfortable on the Atlantic than on Lake Michigan. Most trawlers are semi displacement, relatively flat bottomed hulls. They get very "pitchy" at low speeds. ESPECIALLY with a beam or a quartering sea.

Wavelengths in the ocean are generally longer, we didn't get tossed from side to side as much.

We ended up selling the trawler and buying a 32 ft. express cruiser. Way more comfortable. A deep V fishing type boat (Viking, Cabo, etc.) would be more comfortable still.

[Tom.B]

Originally Posted by OntheHook

On more thing if I may. If we go the motor yacht route with the bigger horsepower engines designed for planning the boat, is that going to cause issues with hour after hour of slow speeds?

It may. There are differing opinions on this topic. I can say that our previous owners went slow and our turbos, exhaust tubes, and aftercoolers were coated with thick soot. He even told us he ran it up to 80% at the end of every trip. Once we started going fast, it has decided to deposit itself on our transom. We are still working it all out :-)

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by OntheHook

On more thing if I may. If we go the motor yacht route with the bigger horsepower engines designed for planning the boat, is that going to cause issues with hour after hour of slow speeds?

I suspect it depends... on the engines, what "slow" means, etc.

You can probably ask about results with specific engines, once you have some candidates in mind.

Hasn't seemed to bother our Cummins 450s, but I don't have experience with other models.

There are several threads on the thought, although I'm hard-pressed to think of a useful query argument that would easily bring those to the surface for you...

But you could also just open up a new query on just that topic, and everyone here who really knows engines (and previous threads) could likely chime in...

-Chris

[FF]

'On more thing if I may. If we go the motor yacht route with the bigger horsepower engines designed for planning the boat, is that going to cause issues with hour after hour of slow speeds?"

Gas engines do not slobber if constantly lightly loaded big diesels may.

The bigger hassle with a fast built boat at slow trawler crawler speeds is poor handling.

BUT if the AP can handle it , why worry?

[Rufus]

Our Lake Michigan based Ocean Alexander 440 just might be for sale after this summer...more likely after summer of 2019. Efficient, Great lakes friendly, semi-displacement Monk hull design. ~1500 hours. I believe it's one of two 44s remaining on the Lakes. Properly sized engines for a semi displacement design. I cruise it at 8.5 knots (turbos slightly on boost). Max speed is 17. We've been using it as a summer live aboard (four months) for a decade. Very nice condition. Price should be within your range. Well maintained. Handsome boat with spectacular interior. PM me if it might be of interest. Never know...

[smitty477]

Originally Posted by Rufus

Our Great Lakes based Ocean Alexander 440 just might be for sale after this summer...more likely after summer of 2019. Efficient, Great lakes friendly, semi-displacement Monk hull design. ~1500 hours. I cruise it at 8.5 knots. Max is 17. We've been using it as a summer live aboard for a decade. Very nice condition. Price should be within your stated max. Well maintained. Pretty boat with spectacular interior. PM me if it might be of interest. Never know...

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Very nice boat - the 440 was produced between 1987 and 1999, which year is yours? Does it have the Cats and if yes which version of them?