Survey Says. Questions?

[BruceK]

"I`m finding brokers happy to start engines, and genset, even without asking. If they run nice and quiet, it`s a selling point, if they don`t the broker might be less willing."

That's a broker that should be fired!!!

As boats may be for sale for months not days , some owners will shut sea cocks , just in case
A few boats with tank fuel cutoffs or other fuel securing systems might be run out of fuel to the engine.

Will the broker come back and bleed the engines and pay for repair of overheated engine or noisemaker?

Good heavens FF, have a valium and a nice lie down.
Did it ever enter your mind a broker starting engines might have express prior authorization to do so? One broker told me the owner, who was away overseas, had asked him to run the engines at any inspection.
On your benighted view, a broker should be fired for following owners instructions and or authorizations.

 

[tiltrider1]

Leaking fuel tanks and soft decks.

Ok, that’s exactly why we hire surveyors. With the next boat I bet you will know how to look for leaking tanks and soft decks. Odds are your next boat won’t make it to survey with those type issues. While you might feel the sting of the boat failing survey, you are in fact looking quite smart. Don’t over react to the sting, continue to be smart.

 

[StarsMan]

We did vessel survey and engine survey at the same time on a boat we had made an offer on. I wouldn’t do it any other way. The vessel surveyor and the engine mechanic worked as a team (as a previous person mentioned). They complemented each other very well. Did the haul out and they both went around checking things and comparing notes. Then sea trial. Miserable fail. Engines would not reach WOT after multiple attempts. Huge amounts of black smoke. Both surveyors compared notes, completed their reports, and I paid them. This gave as solid negotiating ground with the seller. At the end of the day, we walked away from the boat. The information provided by the two of them working as a team was invaluable to me in being able to evaluate repairs, negotiation, and ultimate decision. We found another boat and I did the same thing again, vessel surveyor and engine mechanic at the same time. Better outcome this time and we have our new boat now and are not only happy with the boat but feel that we are well informed about all of her goods, bads, and uglys.

 

[StarsMan]

However, at the risk of being berated, I must say in total transparency that for our first boat, we did not get a survey at all. First, the seller had a recent insurance survey with haul out that was less than 8 months old and done by a local surveyor that I knew and was able to contact to discuss the details. And the seller provided the full survey report. 2nd, the seller provided all of the documentation of work done including mechanical on the engines by a local mechanic that I was also able to contact and discuss details with. Third, sea trial performed flawlessly. 4th, this was a very low price purchase. So added all up, this was a low risk purchase in the grand scheme of things. Second upgrade boat was a different story. Vessel and mechanic survey were a must at that price point. Just felt I needed to add that caveat to the discussion.

 

[tiltrider1]

However, at the risk of being berated, I must say in total transparency that for our first boat, we did not get a survey at all. First, the seller had a recent insurance survey with haul out that was less than 8 months old and done by a local surveyor that I knew and was able to contact to discuss the details. And the seller provided the full survey report. 2nd, the seller provided all of the documentation of work done including mechanical on the engines by a local mechanic that I was also able to contact and discuss details with. Third, sea trial performed flawlessly. 4th, this was a very low price purchase. So added all up, this was a low risk purchase in the grand scheme of things. Second upgrade boat was a different story. Vessel and mechanic survey were a must at that price point. Just felt I needed to add that caveat to the discussion.

I caution people not to use a past survey no matter how recent. The boat could have been run aground the day before it was put up for sale.

 

[fractalphreak]

What if the boat surveyor finds something wrong which will negate the sale? I will be stuck paying for 2 surveys? Would it be better have the done separately?

If he does, he does and you move on. To echo what the others have said, you will have to pay for both, depending on how early on you pull the pin and how much they want to also work on your next survey.

Would it be better to have them done separately? I don't think so depending on the two surveyors. As we've seen posted, there are those surveyors who want to work alone to get their job done. Others might feel differently. Both my surveyor and mechanic were enthusiastic about working together. This was on a 42 ft twin engine boat.

I think the huge advantage was having both of them aboard for the sea trial. I had two sets of experienced eyes (plus my own) looking at everything going on - the engines, their temps, the smoke (or lack of) from the exhaust, the gauges at both helms, the boat's performance and handling, quality and any issues with controls.

From that experience I felt both surveys had a higher level of detail than if they had occurred in isolation. Yes, I would have paid out big dollars for both if, after the sea trial, I had some sort of deal killer come up. I went into the purchase agreement knowing I could lose that, and to also echo what others have said, there was little that my surveyor found that I hadn't spotted, or had a clue about. My son and I spent about 4 hrs on the boat before our offer, and presented the admiral with what we thought was wrong and would need work before we decided to make an offer. In fact, we only really had one project come up as as result of the survey that we hadn't thought would be needed right away (a lot of wiring coming off a positive bus without fuse protection.) Some of the other findings he came up with were more minor and not deal killers, in fact not even really negotiation issues, just maintenance items that were either a priority or needed to be done soon.

 

[larman]

Thanks all for the replies and interesting conversation. Will be doing both surveys at the same time on April 27th will report back the findings, fingers crossed!

 

[BandB]

I caution people not to use a past survey no matter how recent. The boat could have been run aground the day before it was put up for sale.

And especially an insurance survey which is much different than a buyer's survey.

 

[FF]

"Did it ever enter your mind a broker starting engines might have express prior authorization to do so?"

Perhaps , but many brokers are like house brokers , one holds a contract and dozens of others show the boat when they can.

My problem is with a "broker" that has zero idea of how the boat is stored , just turning things off and on , especially engines or noisemakers.

 

[boater3]

I caution people not to use a past survey no matter how recent. The boat could have been run aground the day before it was put up for sale.

and make sure the P&S agreement contemplates reporting of events that happen between the time you make your offer, survey, and closing. i make it clear that full reporting of any incident no matter how minor must be made. some people like to do a quick check of things if some time has elapsed between survey/sea trial and closing.

 

[boater3]

As a hull surveyor I like to have adequate quiet time aboard without interruption. On larger and/or more complicated boats I come the day before and the next day with the mechanic too. Sometimes the mechanic comes the day before too.

I work on my notes between the first and second days and hit the ground running day two for an early haul-out and trial-run. The brokers do not always like it but they spend plenty of time sitting somewhere working so most just do that aboard during the process.

two days sounds excessive unless we are talking about very large boats maybe 60+ feet.

i have purchased several times at a distance, flown in, met surveyor and mechanic by 9am and most everything is wrapped up by 12-1pm. quick break for lunch. sea trial, haul out, done by 2-3pm. this is on 40-50 foot boats. 6 hours seems to be plenty to cover everything unless the sea trial or travel to the hauling site is excessively long. perhaps once you get over 50-60 feet things become more complex but i cant see it adding an entire extra day unless we are talking extremely large yachts. i also come with a list of things surveyors tend not to have (i.e. specific things to look for on a particular boat make/model) and work on my own list, sharing with surveyor for their thoughts and documenting, and then start going through the boat and learning it with the surveyor hollering for anything major that he needs to point out so i can get my eyes on. very efficient and detailed process that leaves time left in the day as a buffer for anything unexpected. i can't imagine having to spend two days surveying/inspecting a boat unless absolutely huge. so far ive been lucky to be able to fly-in, get everything done in one day, fly out and make it home for sleep.

 

[boatpoker]

two days sounds excessive unless we are talking about very large boats maybe 60+ feet.

i have purchased several times at a distance, flown in, met surveyor and mechanic by 9am and most everything is wrapped up by 12-1pm. quick break for lunch. sea trial, haul out, done by 2-3pm. this is on 40-50 foot boats. 6 hours seems to be plenty to cover everything unless the sea trial or travel to the hauling site is excessively long. perhaps once you get over 50-60 feet things become more complex but i cant see it adding an entire extra day unless we are talking extremely large yachts. i also come with a list of things surveyors tend not to have (i.e. specific things to look for on a particular boat make/model) and work on my own list, sharing with surveyor for their thoughts and documenting, and then start going through the boat and learning it with the surveyor hollering for anything major that he needs to point out so i can get my eyes on. very efficient and detailed process that leaves time left in the day as a buffer for anything unexpected. i can't imagine having to spend two days surveying/inspecting a boat unless absolutely huge. so far ive been lucky to be able to fly-in, get everything done in one day, fly out and make it home for sleep.

A 1982, 53' Hatteras with 12vdc, 24vdc, 32vdc, 120vac, 240vac, 18 seacocks, 6 battery banks, 11 battery switches, 2 diesel engines and 2 generators was two 10hr days for me to survey. The first 10hrs was spent just figuring out what was what, where it went and where the 18 seacocks were on the inside of the boat.

 

[bglad]

What you mean is four hours is plenty to do the job since a couple of hours are pretty much wasted just getting underway, watching the boat go up and down then getting back to the slip. Power interrupted, assisting docking when necessary etc.

I think it takes more than that to put hands on all the seacocks, check the flapper switches on the bilge pumps, measure air-con. differentials, look at batteries and so on. I do the job to satisfy myself. With all that some things will still turn up!

Glad you have had good experiences. Lucky you are!

two days sounds excessive unless we are talking about very large boats maybe 60+ feet.

i have purchased several times at a distance, flown in, met surveyor and mechanic by 9am and most everything is wrapped up by 12-1pm. quick break for lunch. sea trial, haul out, done by 2-3pm. this is on 40-50 foot boats. 6 hours seems to be plenty to cover everything unless the sea trial or travel to the hauling site is excessively long. perhaps once you get over 50-60 feet things become more complex but i cant see it adding an entire extra day unless we are talking extremely large yachts. i also come with a list of things surveyors tend not to have (i.e. specific things to look for on a particular boat make/model) and work on my own list, sharing with surveyor for their thoughts and documenting, and then start going through the boat and learning it with the surveyor hollering for anything major that he needs to point out so i can get my eyes on. very efficient and detailed process that leaves time left in the day as a buffer for anything unexpected. i can't imagine having to spend two days surveying/inspecting a boat unless absolutely huge. so far ive been lucky to be able to fly-in, get everything done in one day, fly out and make it home for sleep.

 

[tiltrider1]

As a hull surveyor I like to have adequate quiet time aboard without interruption. [SIZE="6”]On larger and/or more complicated boats[/SIZE] I come the day before and the next day with the mechanic too. Sometimes the mechanic comes the day before too.

I work on my notes between the first and second days and hit the ground running day two for an early haul-out and trial-run. The brokers do not always like it but they spend plenty of time sitting somewhere working so most just do that aboard during the process.

Like the man said, on larger more complicated boats he likes two days, why, because he likes to do a good job. I’m not interested in how fast he can do it. I’m interested in how right he can do it.

 

[BandB]

The time required varies greatly based on the boat's condition, age, size, complexity and type. Surveying continues to evolve as well. For instance, now the surveyors we use extensively use thermal imaging and have very expensive equipment.

On a brand new 50' boat, I'd expect 6 hours for the surveyor and 3 hours for the engine surveyor, assuming twins and a generator. I'd see the example Boatpoker gave as the opposite extreme of perhaps 12 hours boat and 6 for engines. Most used boats should take nearly a full day for the primary surveyor and a half day for the engine surveyor.

To me, the standard on a used 50' boat would be a full day for the boat and 4 hours for the engines.

The survey consists of in water inspection, haul out and sea trial. It should include every component and piece of equipment. There are many time consuming aspects often overlooked or under-estimated. For instance, most are going to have a 5 nm or so run just to the ocean, some more, and that generally at slow speed. That's 30-45 minutes right there each way. So you run a 45 minute sea trial in the ocean and you spend 2 - 2 1/2 hours just for the sea trial. Engines and other mechanicals are checked before and after.

Don't overlook fluid analysis either. Notice I said "fluid" as it's not just fuel or even fuel and oil.

 

[Spinner]

When I bought my boat last year (in WA State), the owner was never present. In fact, I think he was out of state. The broker handled everything including running the engine and sea trial....

 

[smitty477]

two days sounds excessive unless we are talking about very large boats maybe 60+ feet.

i have purchased several times at a distance, flown in, met surveyor and mechanic by 9am and most everything is wrapped up by 12-1pm. quick break for lunch. sea trial, haul out, done by 2-3pm. this is on 40-50 foot boats. 6 hours seems to be plenty to cover everything unless the sea trial or travel to the hauling site is excessively long. perhaps once you get over 50-60 feet things become more complex but i cant see it adding an entire extra day unless we are talking extremely large yachts. i also come with a list of things surveyors tend not to have (i.e. specific things to look for on a particular boat make/model) and work on my own list, sharing with surveyor for their thoughts and documenting, and then start going through the boat and learning it with the surveyor hollering for anything major that he needs to point out so i can get my eyes on. very efficient and detailed process that leaves time left in the day as a buffer for anything unexpected. i can't imagine having to spend two days surveying/inspecting a boat unless absolutely huge. so far ive been lucky to be able to fly-in, get everything done in one day, fly out and make it home for sleep.

That has been our experience as well - one day for the hull survey for a 38,45,45 and 47 foot boats that we have owned.

 

[Ski in NC]

Much depends on the age of the boat. Old boats have old engines and old gennies and other old machines. Much higher chance for sneaky problems to be hiding, thus more diligence is needed. Agree with the post about the old Hatt. LOTS of (old) stuff to look at on those!

Add to that the "creative repairs" that old boats accumulate. My fave's are those owned by old retired electrical engrs. The wiring on those can blow your mind. And rarely in a good way!! All sorts of non-factory wires and cables running all over the place. What do they do???

New boats can go much faster.

Regarding the two day thing: If boat is local and I have the time, I will go a day or so early and do my crawl around part. Not that I need to, but it makes my life easier getting some time without distraction. Also can make sure my kit for sea trial day has all the necessary bits for the test gear. No fun realizing on sea trial day that your boost fittings don't work for some reason. Six folks waiting on the boat and I have to make a 40min run to the shop to get a widget. Not cool.

 

[Riverguy]

Don't even ask...

It may be a cultural difference between Oz and the US. In my experience here in the US, there's no starting engines without the owner present.
Ken

In 35 years of seeing boats represented by brokers (and having bought several) not once were we allowed to start the engine, generator or anything else, until a bonafide offer is signed and the deposit is in escrow.

I doubt it's a cultural thing. Knowledgable buyers know that the vast majority of engine-related issues are not going to show up until the engine is under load, so starting an engine in the slip tells you pretty much nothing.

In addition, no one should ever start a marine engine (especially a diesel) unless you are ready to let it run long enough to get it thoroughly warmed up to normal operating temp. For most diesel engines, this takes quite a while if the engine has no load on it -- at least 30 minutes, even longer in cooler climates, and longer for larger engines.

However...if you even ask a broker to start engines in the slip...you've just let him know that you are unaware of any of these issues.

Hurts your credibility and your negotiating position if the broker has to teach you this as he declines your request.

Best not to even ask...

 

[Riverguy]

Is there any such thing as an "Engine Surveyor"?

So I have finally found a boat pending survey. This may sound like I am cheap but I have been through one unsuccessful survey already. So the boat in question has twin diesels. I am having the boat surveyed and the engines surveyed as well. Engine surveyor want to do it at the same time. What if the boat surveyor finds something wrong which will negate the sale? I will be stuck paying for 2 surveys? Would it be better have the done separately?

Be careful with engine "surveys" and even more careful with "engine surveyors"...



Let your surveyor do his work and then (after the sea trial) let him tell you if an additional expert opinion is needed. In my experience, all my surveyors have been extremely knowledgable about marine engines and fully capable of pulling and interpreting oil samples, spotting evidence of problems, clues about maintenence issues and making sure the engine is behaving as it should during the sea trial. In fact, the smartest 'engine' people I know have been my surveyors.



In reality, the person you are hiring is either an accredited marine surveyor or he is not. The so-called 'engine survey' is performed by a mechanic who is almost never accredited as a surveyor. Worse...your "engine surveyor" has a vested interest in finding stuff to fix, because his business is fixing, not 'surveying'. In contrast, your surveyor will not get involved in billable repair services for a boat they just surveyed -- it's a conflict of interest.


I'm not saying you won't need to bring in a mechanic at some point, but let your surveyor help make that decision...after the sea trial.

 

[BandB]

Be careful with engine "surveys" and even more careful with "engine surveyors"...



Let your surveyor do his work and then (after the sea trial) let him tell you if an additional expert opinion is needed. In my experience, all my surveyors have been extremely knowledgable about marine engines and fully capable of pulling and interpreting oil samples, spotting evidence of problems, clues about maintenence issues and making sure the engine is behaving as it should during the sea trial. In fact, the smartest 'engine' people I know have been my surveyors.



In reality, the person you are hiring is either an accredited marine surveyor or he is not. The so-called 'engine survey' is performed by a mechanic who is almost never accredited as a surveyor. Worse...your "engine surveyor" has a vested interest in finding stuff to fix, because his business is fixing, not 'surveying'. In contrast, your surveyor will not get involved in billable repair services for a boat they just surveyed -- it's a conflict of interest.


I'm not saying you won't need to bring in a mechanic at some point, but let your surveyor help make that decision...after the sea trial.

The largest surveyor firms in South Florida work willingly and prefer to work with engine surveyors who are expert in the specific engine.

 

[BandB]

When I bought my boat last year (in WA State), the owner was never present. In fact, I think he was out of state. The broker handled everything including running the engine and sea trial....

We will never be present at any time on a boat we sell, will never meet the buyers. We will have a captain representing us for all engine operation. He'll also be more than willing to let the potential buyer take the helm once out to sea just to get a feel.

Now, we've only sold one boat since moving to FL. The sea trial on it was from Apalachicola to Stuart. However, the deal was finalized around Fort Myers. There was no survey.

 

[Datenight]

The sea trial on it was from Apalachicola to Stuart.

That is one heck of a sea trial!

Rob

 

[BandB]

The sea trial on it was from Apalachicola to Stuart.

That is one heck of a sea trial!

Rob

Yes. Boat wasn't for sale but couple saw it in TN and then expressed their interest to someone who works for us. We made it clear through that person that we weren't really looking to sell but here's the price. We also stated that a new one would be very little more. Then we said, if they wanted it at that price, they could meet a crew in Apalachicola and cross the gulf with them and either buy it or not. The documentation/title service completed everything before the boat reached their home in Stuart. We had a van and SUV meet them in Stuart and transferred all our personal things there.

They'd seen the boat run and knew it had just come from Pickwick the previous days. So, it was just see that you like it as much as you think. We'd used it for the loop and that's what they wanted it for. They did the loop then in 2017 and they're planning to do it again in 2021.

The whole thing was unexpected, but worked, as we will buy again before our next loop, but we didn't need it until then. Our plans were 2020, but think it may be 2021.

It's really like your neighbor having a boat that you have just taken a long trip in and you buy it.

I've never met or spoken to them personally.

 

[BruceK]

In 35 years of seeing boats represented by brokers (and having bought several) not once were we allowed to start the engine, generator or anything else, until a bonafide offer is signed and the deposit is in escrow.

I doubt it's a cultural thing. Knowledgable buyers know that the vast majority of engine-related issues are not going to show up until the engine is under load, so starting an engine in the slip tells you pretty much nothing.

In addition, no one should ever start a marine engine (especially a diesel) unless you are ready to let it run long enough to get it thoroughly warmed up to normal operating temp. For most diesel engines, this takes quite a while if the engine has no load on it -- at least 30 minutes, even longer in cooler climates, and longer for larger engines.

However...if you even ask a broker to start engines in the slip...you've just let him know that you are unaware of any of these issues.

Hurts your credibility and your negotiating position if the broker has to teach you this as he declines your request.

Best not to even ask...

That`s mostly ill thought out. Concern about what others think implies low self esteem, and that should not be allowed to get in the way of assessing a boat.

If I want the engines run I`ll ask for it. That`s if the broker hasn`t already offered. Broker can say yes or no. At minimum I want to assess noise levels. I also want to know how well they start and run. Engines are a major item, I wouldn`t make an offer without assessing the boat generally,and I`m not for making offers without at least a basic engine(s) assessment.

 

[BandB]

That`s mostly ill thought out. Concern about what others think implies low self esteem, and that should be allowed to get in the way of assessing a boat.

If I want the engines run I`ll ask for it. That`s if the broker hasn`t already offered. Broker can say yes or no. At minimum I want to assess noise levels. I also want to know how well they start and run. Engines are a major item, I wouldn`t make an offer without assessing the boat generally,and I`m not for making offers without at least a basic engine(s) assessment.

That's a difference of places. In South Florida, for the most part, if you want the engines run, you'll pay for the owner or broker to hire a captain to do so. Broker's here use paid captain's only to run boats they're selling. Perhaps it's a higher level of fear of liability than exists in Australia.

Now, I don't think asking to hear it started is at all something that should bring shame as stated above. I think all it gets is a "I can't do that, but I can arrange it if you're willing to make an offer or to pay a captain to start them."

 

[BruceK]

....Now, I don't think asking to hear it started is at all something that should bring shame as stated above. I think all it gets is a "I can't do that, but I can arrange it if you're willing to make an offer or to pay a captain to start them."

Perhaps it depends how well the broker knows the owner and or the boat. If he knows little about it,is not the lister, or is otherwise unfamiliar he`d be unwise to start it, but having to hire in and pay for a Captain seems way over the top to me.
Maybe brokers here have more familiarity with their listed boats. I remember saying to one broker "Are the seacocks open" and getting the reply "John(the owner) always leaves them open".

 

[BandB]

Perhaps it depends how well the broker knows the owner and or the boat. If he knows little about it,is not the lister, or is otherwise unfamiliar he`d be unwise to start it, but having to hire in and pay for a Captain seems way over the top to me.
Maybe brokers here have more familiarity with their listed boats. I remember saying to one broker "Are the seacocks open" and getting the reply "John(the owner) always leaves them open".

I'd say one other aspect of it. Brokers want to be sure it's a serious buyer. The volume of lookers here is extremely high. They would be starting and running boats every day if willing.

Are most of the boats for sale there located at the broker's facility or home marina or just random locations?

 

[Rufus]

When we first looked at our boat, I noted that the engine oil appeared due for a change. Excellent. I opted for an oil analysis of that used oil and skipped the engine survey. Fairly simple, low hours engine, and the sea trial would tell the real story. I looked them over for leaks after a hard run to check max rpm...good enough. (I understand that oil analysis is normally a trending tool, but the analysis of these samples came back virtually perfect).

 

[BruceK]

I'd say one other aspect of it. Brokers want to be sure it's a serious buyer. The volume of lookers here is extremely high. They would be starting and running boats every day if willing.

Are most of the boats for sale there located at the broker's facility or home marina or just random locations?

Broker listed boat locations vary, often the boat is at the marina where the broker is located. Broker offices are mostly located at marinas. They may list boats kept on the marina, or have sales berths for other boats they list. Some boats listed may be kept on private moorings or at another marina nearby. In my experience brokers get to know their owners and boats quite well.
I don`t see a big imposition for a potential buyer to expect a seller or broker to run engines. They are no less an important item to assess than the engine of a motor vehicle. It`s not as much of an imposition as the ubiquitous "test drive" we expect with a car.