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Old 07-16-2020, 06:20 PM   #1
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Survey (mostly) complete: Issues found.

Ok our survey is mostly complete. I am still waiting for the oil samples and mechanical survey to complete.

While i do not have the written reports, here is the list of the conclusions I can remember from the surveyor, the mechanic and the rigger.


During the sea trial the glendining controls briefly went offline for 20-30 seconds and then came back on line. This was an observation by my father in law during operation of the vessel. I was not present. The vessel does have the original cable controls that can be reconnected to the engines and transmissions.



Minor leak at the fuel tank inspection port.


Corrosion noted at a connection to the day fuel tank.


Leaking seal on starboard stabilizer. Corrosion also noted inside housing for post from an unknown part of the stabilizer. (the port stabilizer was replaced 2 years ago (or less)


The engines would only make 2500 RPM at 9 knots or so. The mechanic thinks the boat is over propped. The surveyor thinks the boat is overpropped. Others think the boat is overpropped. its a 52' (unsure of waterline length) 80,000lb displacement hull with twin lehman 135s and 3 bladed 24x17 props. Can anyone comment as to how much i need to repitch the props and how much that would cost? Or am I looking at new props? Or should I not worry about it? My thinking is that the engines should make full power even if full power is only needed occasionally during an emergency maneuver. and how much power difference is there between 2400 rpm and 2800 on an old FL135?


The mechanic thinks the engines need to be aligned. The surveyor noted the same thing as the propellers would not turn easily.


During delivery of the boat to the boat yard, the stbd engine needed to be shut down due to a failed water pump cooling the stabilizer hydraulic fluid. The deliver captain located the issue sand has a repair in progress for it.


The stbd engine hour meter is not working . the port engine has 2500 hours on it, but also does not run the stabilizers.


All the waste hoses need to be replaced as they are crystallized on the outside


The domestic water piping could use replacement soon (my own observation)


the inverter is stuffed in a locker with the house bank (six 6 volt) without good ventilation or access. wires were noted to be 40 degrees over ambient temperature. (check cable size and install vents in locker)


Last but worst is the pilothouse roof is de-laminated and has about 50% moisture content. It's quite spongy. The previous owner/delivery captain (not to be confused with the seller, said it was that way the entire time he owned it ,although he never volunteered that information anytime before the surveyor discovered it. The deck is about 11x11 ft. I asked the surveyor for a number to repair it and he made a call and the answer was 15-20k


There is of course a list of minor things that consist of an hour task here or there that i cant quite recall, but I am familiar enough with boats to know that this fairly normal maintenance issues.



The surveyor and his assistant were quite thorough and opened every compartment and tested every system they could.


I was thinking I should give the entire list of issues (which I dont have yet) to the broker and see what he says. Between the 2 major items (roof and stabilizer) i think we are talking about 25 grand or more. I know used boats have problems, but I was not make aware of aware of these issues before I made my offer, and my contract says i am released if not satisfied by the surveys


Can anyone comment on the best way I can approach this to have the most fair outcome for both the seller and myself?
Thanks
Scott
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Old 07-16-2020, 07:03 PM   #2
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Can anyone comment on the best way I can approach this to have the most fair outcome for both the seller and myself?
Thanks
Scott
Well you have a decision to make.

Do you like it enough that you are willing to have a project boat for the next few years (and remember the surveys won't catch everything) or are you at the tipping point of walking away? Just don't let the money you have already spent on the surveys be your decision maker.

If you feel you still want the boat then you may want to negotiate for a little more time to respond to the buyer after survey. The reason being you need to get fair and reasonable estimates on the work.

The company you used on the engine surveys should be able to estimate that work. You may need to ask a yard to go in and estimate as much as they can on the hull and other jobs.

The delamination (and perhaps some others) are going to be SWAGs.

So get the estimates and then add in a safety buffer for the work costing more (as it always does) plus what the surveys did not find. Take that off your original offer and revise the offer price.

Again, only if you are sure you want to go ahead.

Boats are not the same as houses where its location, location, location. You can move a boat and there will be others out there.

In the final analysis it is your call. It is not without risk. All you can do is lessen the risk with a good post-survey offer.
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Old 07-16-2020, 07:15 PM   #3
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I think that engine is rated at 2500, so if it made 2500 it is in the ballpark. This is not like a planing hull where you need to reach rated plus 50 to 100rpm. On a displacement hull if you pull it back 400-500 turns it is still loaded in a happy spot. Planing hulls I get picky on full load rpm. Not so much on hull speed boats. Unless you plan on running it near full power, which most do not.
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Old 07-16-2020, 07:18 PM   #4
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I suggest waiting until you have the written reports. As "pen goes to paper/fingers hit keys" and the story emerges in print, the writer may revise conclusions and advice. Check time limits to reject the boat, you don`t want that expiring while you gather information reports.
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Old 07-16-2020, 07:54 PM   #5
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Did I miss type of boat, age, location, and general valuation? I feel like I walked into the middle of a movie.
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Old 07-16-2020, 08:07 PM   #6
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Without knowing what manufacturer, size, and contract price, it's hard to comment. On a million dollar boat, you're talking 5 to 10%. On a hundred thousand dollar boat, probably time to start walking as the owner isn't likely taking 50 cents on the dollar.

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Old 07-16-2020, 08:24 PM   #7
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I think that engine is rated at 2500, so if it made 2500 it is in the ballpark. This is not like a planing hull where you need to reach rated plus 50 to 100rpm.
135 is rated at 2600. I would wait until engine is aligned or shafts straightened or struts replaced before making any prop decisions. If the shafts aren't turning freely then you aren't going to hit 2600.

Bigger issue is the core. It will have to be replaced. If it is already spongy then it's overdue. I would either ask for extension to get detailed estimates or cancel the offer. I wouldn't proceed with WAG's.
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Old 07-16-2020, 08:29 PM   #8
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135 is rated at 2600. I would wait until engine is aligned or shafts straightened or struts replaced before making any prop decisions. If the shafts aren't turning freely then you aren't going to hit 2600.



Bigger issue is the core. It will have to be replaced. If it is already spongy then it's overdue. I would either ask for extension to get detailed estimates or cancel the offer. I wouldn't proceed with WAG's.


What is a WAG?
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Old 07-16-2020, 08:29 PM   #9
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Did I miss type of boat, age, location, and general valuation? I feel like I walked into the middle of a movie.


Sorry.

Moving up.
https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/...ad.php?t=51648
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Old 07-16-2020, 08:34 PM   #10
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I think that engine is rated at 2500, so if it made 2500 it is in the ballpark. This is not like a planing hull where you need to reach rated plus 50 to 100rpm. On a displacement hull if you pull it back 400-500 turns it is still loaded in a happy spot. Planing hulls I get picky on full load rpm. Not so much on hull speed boats. Unless you plan on running it near full power, which most do not.


One this boat hits 8.5 knots I donít think 747 engines could get it going much faster.
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Old 07-16-2020, 08:37 PM   #11
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The delamination (and perhaps some others) are going to be SWAGs.

.


Swags?
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Old 07-16-2020, 08:47 PM   #12
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Swags?
Scientific Wild A$$ Guess

Ted
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Old 07-16-2020, 09:04 PM   #13
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Surevey (mostly) complete: Issues found.

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Scientific Wild A$$ Guess



Ted


Ok right. Well the pilot house roof area is only 11 x 11 ft. So we do have it limited to that area.
The surveyor said 15 to 20k to have a yard do the entire roof.
Much more work will need to go into figuring out if the damage can be mitigated to less area than that. The headliner, trim and an instrumentation box will need to be removed and core samples will need to be drilled from below to really see the extent of the damage. The method of repair could also be decided at that point and maybe an accurate number can be made. So the WAG may have to do unless the seller wants to take it on and have the work done to my surveyors satisfaction.
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Old 07-16-2020, 09:23 PM   #14
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Ok, bligh, I can't contain my curiosity about the boat in your avatar any longer. It looks ready to sink, or close to it. I can't enlarge it to see it better. What make of boat is it, etc.? Could you explain? Sorry if this was mentioned elsewhere.
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Old 07-16-2020, 09:27 PM   #15
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Ok, bligh, I can't contain my curiosity about the boat in your avatar any longer. It looks ready to sink, or close to it. I can't enlarge it to see it better. What make of boat is it, etc.? Could you explain? Sorry if this was mentioned elsewhere.


Lol. Itís some old fiberglass houseboat someone abandoned. I have no idea the make or model of it. Abandoned boats are a common site around here.
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Old 07-16-2020, 10:04 PM   #16
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Negotiate- donít nit pick small stuff but u r going to have her hauled, props changed, cutlass bearings, shafts checked & engines aligned plus the stabilizer Seals (plus the ram seal/new ram). Add in the cost of PH roof core (at least no non skid do easier/cheaper than deck repairs). Thatís a place to start. Remain patient - the survey isnít going to go away for the seller. So those defects will keep coming up with other buyers. Your seller will eventually figure out that he/she will have to fix them or discount the price. Best he/she deal with you since u already have ďskinĒ in the game. Be prepared for seller not to accept that reality initially. Hence the need to stay civil & patient.
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Old 07-16-2020, 10:06 PM   #17
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Negotiate- donít nit pick small stuff but u r going to have her hauled, props changed, cutlass bearings, shafts checked & engines aligned plus the stabilizer Seals (plus the ram seal/new ram). Add in the cost of PH roof core (at least no non skid do easier/cheaper than deck repairs). Thatís a place to start. Remain patient - the survey isnít going to go away for the seller. So those defects will keep coming up with other buyers. Your seller will eventually figure out that he/she will have to fix them or discount the price. Best he/she deal with you since u already have ďskinĒ in the game. Be prepared for seller not to accept that reality initially. Hence the need to stay civil & patient.


Thank you.
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Old 07-16-2020, 10:31 PM   #18
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Bare in mind that even if you can successfully take on repairs like the PH roof for 10% of shops cost (for materials, but are willing to invest your own time and realize that for the time of the repair, you won't be able to use the boat), for negotiation purposes, you need to assume professionally repaired. You mentioned possible 25k reduction. . . . Given just the sketchy info provided to go on, I think your 25k is way low. Seems like things like stabilizers that go in for "tune ups" rarely come out of the shop for less than 10k if "tuned up" properly. Shafts, and possible retuning or replacement of props $$$. Glendenning synchronizes dropping off line MAY be something simple . . .if not $$$
Starboard engine failed water pump cooling the hydraulic pump . . . failed due to SAND?!? Was the boat involved in a grounding event? How the heck did SAND get into the cooling cycle?!? If grounded, and sucked sand, that might explain the possible misaligned prop shafts . . . bent shafts maybe?!? Not enough info to go on yet . . .


Have you done the haulout and out of water survey yet?



Hope things work out okay, but something doesn't sound right here . . .
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Old 07-16-2020, 10:40 PM   #19
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Note that the cause of the wet core needs to be determined. Typically Mfr's did not overdrill and epoxy fastener holes, so over a period of 30 years leaks were inevitable. The whole boat was fastened the same way.

The proper fix would be to remove all fasteners, overdrill, epoxy, and redrill. A workable fix is to unscrew fastener, fill countersink with butyl rubber, rescrew. While you have a screw out poke around with a 90' dental pick and make sure core is dry.
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Old 07-16-2020, 10:48 PM   #20
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Survey (mostly) complete: Issues found.

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Bare in mind that even if you can successfully take on repairs like the PH roof for 10% of shops cost (for materials, but are willing to invest your own time and realize that for the time of the repair, you won't be able to use the boat), for negotiation purposes, you need to assume professionally repaired. You mentioned possible 25k reduction. . . . Given just the sketchy info provided to go on, I think your 25k is way low. Seems like things like stabilizers that go in for "tune ups" rarely come out of the shop for less than 10k if "tuned up" properly. Shafts, and possible retuning or replacement of props $$$. Glendenning synchronizes dropping off line MAY be something simple . . .if not $$$
Starboard engine failed water pump cooling the hydraulic pump . . . failed due to SAND?!? Was the boat involved in a grounding event? How the heck did SAND get into the cooling cycle?!? If grounded, and sucked sand, that might explain the possible misaligned prop shafts . . . bent shafts maybe?!? Not enough info to go on yet . . .


Have you done the haulout and out of water survey yet?



Hope things work out okay, but something doesn't sound right here . . .


Sorry. My sentence should have read ďissue andĒ not ďissue sand.ĒIím texting posts from my iPad and I am not very skilled at typing anyhow. There is no Ďsandí issue. The failed pump is an electric centrifugal pump, not the engine raw water pump. Not a high dollar item. But itís failure led to the shutting down the starboard engine to keep the hydraulic fluid from overheating.

I am definitely not interested in taking on a rotten deck core issue on. I donít have the time or interest in doing that type of work. A yard will do it at the owners expense or I will move on. But even if a yard does the work, I will be losing time with the boat. So this event is still sort of a downer for me. I figured 5k for the stabilizer service since the port one is new and that service was about 5 k including the new fin. I think members here posted their stab service costs not long ago. Iíll try the search function.
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