Survey Findings Question

[Pau Hana]

I think what you say is accurate, I also think the pendulum will swing to cherry picked insuring forcing more people to do what was not previously required.
I reviewed the survey and in my case I agree with the surveyor and insurer, these were safety item recommendations. Noted also was that some were mentioned in a 3 year old survey and which were ignored, items mentioned again brought forward.
Perhaps insurers are starting to see that once insured recommendations are ignored, and now they will look for them to be done before insuring. A new trend coming?

I don’t think a new trend is coming. Most insurers require that a survey recs compliance form be signed and on file- this form states that the insured will comply with completion of the critical survey recs in a timely manner (recs required by the USCG, safety, and those recs that pose an immediate threat to the vessel or the safety of people onboard). If a claim occurs as a result of a critical survey rec not being completed, the claim can be declined.

This has been standard practice for years.

 

[Codger2]

.....I'm NOT saying it's a bad idea but where does it stop? Unless one's vessel is less than 5 years old OR has been completely rewired, a surveyor might easily find something that doesn't conform to the latest AYBC suggestions. I also think it's VERY safe to say that most probably 95% of the boats on TF don't conform to the latest and greatest.
.

I completely agree with RT's statements and I've always been told the AYBC's suggestions are not the law! (But I agree the insurance Companies are!)

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

We do, now, after our electrical repairs. Our marine electrician, Charlie Johnson, sits on the ABYC Electrical Standards committee.


Cheers and stay safe,
Mrs. Trombley

Our main panel is about 7’ from the inlet so we are good. Before I rewired the boat there was 2 30 amp inlets and only 1 main 30 amp breaker on the panel. President apparently did this from the factory because I examined another 41 that was wired exactly the same way. 2 30 amp inlets with one of them going directly to the bus and the other one going to the main 30 amp breaker. We now have 2 30 amp main breakers with a new main A/C-D/C panel. Back in the day there were a lot of boats wired every which way... Oh, and the surveyor did not catch the only 1 main breaker, great surveyor.

We do, Tom- when we went from twin 30A to a single 124/250 50A, I installed a switch just as you describe.

WINNER!!!!

If your boat is current to the date of manufacture, you should be fine. I’ve argued this exact thing more than once with underwriters based on simple math- requiring the insured to completely rewire the vessel (in my case, a 1989) to make it align with 2020 standards can cost thousands of $$$ in labor costs alone- not realistic.

So as stated my point is the date of the requirement. My boat meets 1988 standards. Things like rusty clamps, out of date fire extinguisher are items that, may be safety related but also meet USCG rules. Tearing apart my boat to find proper wiring, then install a circuit breaker panel at $125 an hour for labor becomes very expensive.

Where in the USCG rules and laws require me to bring my boat up to 2020 standards?

So Pau how do I fight this with the insurance company if they tell me install or no insurance? Remember there are many insurance companies that will not insure you if your boat is now 25 years or older?

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

We do, now, after our electrical repairs. Our marine electrician, Charlie Johnson, sits on the ABYC Electrical Standards committee.
Cheers and stay safe,
Mrs. Trombley

So I am anti- ABYC in the point that ABYC RECOMMENDS are not set in law. It seems many insurance companies and surveyors treat these recommendations as law. They are not the LAW. The recommendations are NOT USCG enforced. It seems that these folks believe all boats regardless of age must meet 2020 ABYC recommendations.

 

[Pau Hana]

So as stated my point is the date of the requirement. My boat meets 1988 standards. Things like rusty clamps, out of date fire extinguisher are items that, may be safety related but also meet USCG rules. Tearing apart my boat to find proper wiring, then install a circuit breaker panel at $125 an hour for labor becomes very expensive.

Where in the USCG rules and laws require me to bring my boat up to 2020 standards?

So Pau how do I fight this with the insurance company if they tell me install or no insurance? Remember there are many insurance companies that will not insure you if your boat is now 25 years or older?

It’s not in any USCG regs, Tom- it’s the choice/ requirement of the insurer, and each has different requirements.

Let’s talk Monday- I’ll help you get this sorted with insurance.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Here is the response from the surveyor in regards to my question on the circuit breaker panel (so how many of you are now replacing their entire C/B panel?):


Tom, if you have a failure of a main circuit breaker at the shore or the panel of the boat, this circuit breaker will protect the vessel systems in case of a breaker failure. It is a back up, It's mainly for the dockside hookup at U/K transient docks. Currently, your entire breaker panel is over 30 years old and should be replaced. This recommendation is an ABYC standard however in my experience as a marine surveyor I believe it to be necessary installation. I have attached the corrected report.

 

[Comodave]

I replaced my main electrical panel. The old panel was too small and had no room for expansion. It also only had 1 30 amp main breaker with 2 30 amp inlets. Also the boat was incorrectly wired and would trip the GFI dock breakers just by plugging the boat in to the dock. Now it works great. I had to build a new cabinet for the panel since the old panel was vertical and the new panel is horizontal.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

I replaced my main electrical panel. The old panel was too small and had no room for expansion. It also only had 1 30 amp main breaker with 2 30 amp inlets. Also the boat was incorrectly wired and would trip the GFI dock breakers just by plugging the boat in to the dock. Now it works great. I had to build a new cabinet for the panel since the old panel was vertical and the new panel is horizontal.

Nice. But would you have done all the work and cost associated with a new panel if you were told you must meet 2020 ABYC standards regardless?

See this is the biggest bone I have with the marine industry and standards. For instance, my dock I have four 30 amp connections. They are NOT GFI. However when and if I work on the dock electrical system, then at that time I must bring them up to the current NEC marine standards.

It should be the same way with boats.

 

[SteveK]

I have attached the corrected report.

What did he change on the report, anything to do with topic?

 

[Comodave]

I would have changed the panel regardless. The surveyor did not write up the electrical panel, when I inspected it I could tell it was wrong so I changed it.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

What did he change on the report, anything to do with topic?

Not really. He had the wrong brand of electric range and didn't include some of my electronics. I told him these items didn't increase the value, just accuracy in the report.

He stated this:

REPORT:

This 1988 Camarague 48 Sportfisher was attended on March 17, 2020 in Longview, Washington. The vessel was surveyed while in the water near the Longview Yacht Club on the Columbia River. In my inspection, I found the vessel to be in good condition structurally. Cosmetically, the interior of the vessel has had some updating in very good condition. The exterior gelcoat is in like new condition. Although the vessel is not boathouse kept its impeccable appearance shows that it has. The entire vessel has been very well maintained and cared for by its current owner. I believe this vessel will be a good insurance risk after the immediate items, indicated with (*) are attended. All items are in good working order unless otherwise noted.

 

[Leo Reise]

The small catch is that ABYC is constantly updating their standards - which is good. However, I have used the analogy that the DMV is not ordering '54 Fords off the road because they do not have disc brakes. The drum brakes work quite well!
The sailboat I had was built in 1968. The breaker was a metal Square D 20-amp house breaker, you know, the one with the side-arm. It worked. When I upgraded the electrical system to an 30-amp it was to ABYC standards using all Blue Seas equipment. Less than 6 months later a new set of standards came out and I "no longer complied".
I would suggest that a discussion with the surveyor. If the vessel, when originally wired complied to ABYC, and that is what currently exists, then the statement in the survey should read, "The electrical system as it exists was built to the standards at that time. If the system is changed, it should be to the current ABYC Standards."
Just my opinion

 

[Jimintheair3]

No Virus "Killed by Electrical Shock"!

The surveyor is doing you a favor, reasonable fix for old technology. "You can burn the dock down, not your boat!" You all ready said, my dock is not GFI! Stand back on the wet days, as you plug in. ABYC does not make this stuff up, they SEE what works and what **** happens.
I get, "the making old stuff new is expensive." So is the fuel for the Alaska trip, every year. But, look at the long term safety. OR just let somebody else, "plug in the shore power!"

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

The surveyor is doing you a favor, reasonable fix for old technology. "You can burn the dock down, not your boat!" You all ready said, my dock is not GFI! Stand back on the wet days, as you plug in. ABYC does not make this stuff up, they SEE what works and what **** happens.
I get, "the making old stuff new is expensive." So is the fuel for the Alaska trip, every year. But, look at the long term safety. OR just let somebody else, "plug in the shore power!"

Well I strongly disagree. My dock and boat are perfectly safe. All dock connections are circuit breaker protected one on the dock, the other one in the main electrical box, as well as the boat.

I have no worries plugging in my boat at the dock on rainy days. I'm not one of those idiots that plugs in their shore power cord with the breakers in the "on" position on the dock.

If you are to be believed then there would be many many more docks and boats burning to the ground because of faulty electrical.

How many folks have died because the dock in not GFCI? How many boat have caught fire due to non GFCI on their boat?

Reminds me of the propane bottle scandal...

 

[Jimintheair3]

WELL, the surveyor doesn't agree. NOR will your insurance company! You still have to turn on the power!
Here's the DEAL, don't adhere to the surveyors findings and your boat has a problem, "you're NOT covered!" Not worth it to most of us!

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Wow
I am covered with my current policy. Go for a walk my friend and get some fresh air

WELL, the surveyor doesn't agree. NOR will your insurance company! You still have to turn on the power!
Here's the DEAL, don't adhere to the surveyors findings and your boat has a problem, "you're NOT covered!" Not worth it to most of us!

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

So thanks to the help of my fellow TFers I have a solution. I will pull the cable and phone inputs and insert a twin 50 amp GFI breaker inlet kit. $250. Problem solved. Thank you TF

 

[SteveK]

 

[Jimintheair3]

I have fresh air, I'm glad you finally "got a brain"! You would NOT be covered with "my insurance" as I pointed out.

Sometimes, everyone else is not wrong! You didn't need to get personal, YOU hired the surveyor and posted!!!!!!

 

[Nickair]

The surveyor is covering his rear. The insurance company can make you do whatever they want or you can go elsewhere and get insurance. Of course you aren’t going to do that so you will just comply. Just be glad that it wasn’t something really expensive or tough to do.

Spot on! ?

 

[catalinajack]

When the time comes that I am required to obtain an insurance survey, any surveyor I interview will be asked about whether he will cite the boat for not being up to current standards. Last June, in this marina, a friend sold his Monk 36. The surveyor dinged the boat for not having tinned wire. It cost the owner a significant allowance.

 

[psneeld]

Tinned wire is not required by ABYC and my last 2 insurance companies would have accepted that arguement.

While I dont like to have to have that dialogue with my insurance company because it is unnecessary, occasionally surveyors, owners and insurance are all on different sheets of music... and that rubs me and others wrong.

Anyone ever need an insurance survey on th their RV?

 

[exmaggiedrum]

Regulations, Laws, Common Sense

The "good" surveys I have seen have at least two parts in the deficiencies noted. The first would be called "needs immediate attention" or "safety related". Insurance companies will always want these to be corrected. The surveyor and you may disagree but it will be on paper. If you don't correct them and the boat is lost due to not correcting one of those they "might" deny a claim.



There is then a section for those findings that don't meet the above. What I have done in the past is immediately correct the most important of the first category (rusted hose clamps for thru-hulls e.g.). I then tell the insurance company that my plan is to address the others in the first category in the next 3-6 months and the rest over the next 12 months. I have never been denied insurance. BUT, in this case they probably would not honor a claim if that fault caused the claim.


I was an ABYC tech for many years. The "standards" were always recommendations. ABYC was started by manufacturers to help them in building safe boats and to satisfy owners and insurances companies as to best practices. They never were "regulations", e.g. US NFPA (National Fire Protection Association" which are often required by some building codes on land. These have the force of law if they are in the code.


I think (but am not an expert) that some of the European and Australian standards for yachts have the force of law. I know in Australia they have impounded boats for not being "safe" per these regulations.


And, to my knowledge, at least back when I was certified was that boats were not "required" to meet new standards unless they new equipment was installed and then they were "required". Insurance companies have every right to pick what standards they want. You can argue with them and they may defer but it is a commercial relationship and they can force you to accept their rules or go some where else for insurance.



The US Coast Guard has mandated certain safety rules, such as fire extinguishers to standard and a bunch of others. These are legal requirements. You can try to fight them in court. I wish you good luck in that. It would always be cheaper and easier to just correct what they say. They are tougher on commercial boats.


However, anyone can get on their high horse and say that they will not let anyone tell them what to do. If it is safety related that is not very smart. And some things that an owner may not perceive as an important safety item may find they are wrong. Wiring protection on a boat seems to be one of those areas where owners routinely decide they know best, or, just don't want to spend the money. Sometimes even with critical items.


Whether or not the ABYC said XYZ back in 1989 is not the point. The ABYC recommendations have been debated by manufacturers and boat experts/gurus since the start. From what I have seen, there is very little in there that does not represent situations where people have been killed or boats have been lost. There are a lot of nits and a lot of times there are more ways to skin a cat than exactly what they say, but they are designed to be minimum suggestions not "in a perfect world" suggestions.


There is a lot of misundertandings about this. As an owner you should want to have a safe boat, not just for yourself, but for your crew and the public and other boaters around you. Yesterday there was a huge marina fire in Seattle. I will go out on a limb and say that most boat and marina fires were caused by careless behavior but in many, if not most cases, equipment that did not meet minimum safety standards. Things such as having an automatic propane shutoff valve in a sealed propane space where propane gas cannot leak out of the space but only overboard.



To each his own, but if you are one of those who prides themselves on how to get away with as much as possible I would not want to be moored next to you. A boat built to 1989 specifications can still be a dangerous boat. They have added to the "standards" because they were not rigorous enough back in 1989. That's not a good excuse to have an unsafe boat.

 

[psneeld]

Yet it has been posted here several times that one of the opening paragraphs in the ABYC standards is that the "standard" in question may not be achievable in older boats but a reasonable attempt should be made.

Anyone have a copy that can be they can refer to and either make available and if not at least paraphrase it?

 

[catalinajack]

So, using your thinking, any boat built to previous standards is unsafe? Perhaps in some regards such as not having over-current protection in some circuits but you blanket statement is, well, ridiculous. Is an older boat that is wired with un-tinned wire unsafe? I don't think so but, by your standards, any boat with un-tinned wire should be re-wired cuz, yeah, the current ABYC recommendation is for tinned wire. Were you really trying to suggest that old boats are unsafe unless brought up to current recommendations?

The "good" surveys I have seen have at least two parts in the deficiencies noted. The first would be called "needs immediate attention" or "safety related". Insurance companies will always want these to be corrected. The surveyor and you may disagree but it will be on paper. If you don't correct them and the boat is lost due to not correcting one of those they "might" deny a claim.



There is then a section for those findings that don't meet the above. What I have done in the past is immediately correct the most important of the first category (rusted hose clamps for thru-hulls e.g.). I then tell the insurance company that my plan is to address the others in the first category in the next 3-6 months and the rest over the next 12 months. I have never been denied insurance. BUT, in this case they probably would not honor a claim if that fault caused the claim.


I was an ABYC tech for many years. The "standards" were always recommendations. ABYC was started by manufacturers to help them in building safe boats and to satisfy owners and insurances companies as to best practices. They never were "regulations", e.g. US NFPA (National Fire Protection Association" which are often required by some building codes on land. These have the force of law if they are in the code.


I think (but am not an expert) that some of the European and Australian standards for yachts have the force of law. I know in Australia they have impounded boats for not being "safe" per these regulations.


And, to my knowledge, at least back when I was certified was that boats were not "required" to meet new standards unless they new equipment was installed and then they were "required". Insurance companies have every right to pick what standards they want. You can argue with them and they may defer but it is a commercial relationship and they can force you to accept their rules or go some where else for insurance.



The US Coast Guard has mandated certain safety rules, such as fire extinguishers to standard and a bunch of others. These are legal requirements. You can try to fight them in court. I wish you good luck in that. It would always be cheaper and easier to just correct what they say. They are tougher on commercial boats.


However, anyone can get on their high horse and say that they will not let anyone tell them what to do. If it is safety related that is not very smart. And some things that an owner may not perceive as an important safety item may find they are wrong. Wiring protection on a boat seems to be one of those areas where owners routinely decide they know best, or, just don't want to spend the money. Sometimes even with critical items.


Whether or not the ABYC said XYZ back in 1989 is not the point. The ABYC recommendations have been debated by manufacturers and boat experts/gurus since the start. From what I have seen, there is very little in there that does not represent situations where people have been killed or boats have been lost. There are a lot of nits and a lot of times there are more ways to skin a cat than exactly what they say, but they are designed to be minimum suggestions not "in a perfect world" suggestions.


There is a lot of misundertandings about this. As an owner you should want to have a safe boat, not just for yourself, but for your crew and the public and other boaters around you. Yesterday there was a huge marina fire in Seattle. I will go out on a limb and say that most boat and marina fires were caused by careless behavior but in many, if not most cases, equipment that did not meet minimum safety standards. Things such as having an automatic propane shutoff valve in a sealed propane space where propane gas cannot leak out of the space but only overboard.



To each his own, but if you are one of those who prides themselves on how to get away with as much as possible I would not want to be moored next to you. A boat built to 1989 specifications can still be a dangerous boat. They have added to the "standards" because they were not rigorous enough back in 1989. That's not a good excuse to have an unsafe boat.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

The "good" surveys I have seen have at least two parts in the deficiencies noted. The first would be called "needs immediate attention" or "safety related". Insurance companies will always want these to be corrected. The surveyor and you may disagree but it will be on paper. If you don't correct them and the boat is lost due to not correcting one of those they "might" deny a claim.



There is then a section for those findings that don't meet the above. What I have done in the past is immediately correct the most important of the first category (rusted hose clamps for thru-hulls e.g.). I then tell the insurance company that my plan is to address the others in the first category in the next 3-6 months and the rest over the next 12 months. I have never been denied insurance. BUT, in this case they probably would not honor a claim if that fault caused the claim.


I was an ABYC tech for many years. The "standards" were always recommendations. ABYC was started by manufacturers to help them in building safe boats and to satisfy owners and insurances companies as to best practices. They never were "regulations", e.g. US NFPA (National Fire Protection Association" which are often required by some building codes on land. These have the force of law if they are in the code.


I think (but am not an expert) that some of the European and Australian standards for yachts have the force of law. I know in Australia they have impounded boats for not being "safe" per these regulations.


And, to my knowledge, at least back when I was certified was that boats were not "required" to meet new standards unless they new equipment was installed and then they were "required". Insurance companies have every right to pick what standards they want. You can argue with them and they may defer but it is a commercial relationship and they can force you to accept their rules or go some where else for insurance.



The US Coast Guard has mandated certain safety rules, such as fire extinguishers to standard and a bunch of others. These are legal requirements. You can try to fight them in court. I wish you good luck in that. It would always be cheaper and easier to just correct what they say. They are tougher on commercial boats.


However, anyone can get on their high horse and say that they will not let anyone tell them what to do. If it is safety related that is not very smart. And some things that an owner may not perceive as an important safety item may find they are wrong. Wiring protection on a boat seems to be one of those areas where owners routinely decide they know best, or, just don't want to spend the money. Sometimes even with critical items.


Whether or not the ABYC said XYZ back in 1989 is not the point. The ABYC recommendations have been debated by manufacturers and boat experts/gurus since the start. From what I have seen, there is very little in there that does not represent situations where people have been killed or boats have been lost. There are a lot of nits and a lot of times there are more ways to skin a cat than exactly what they say, but they are designed to be minimum suggestions not "in a perfect world" suggestions.


There is a lot of misundertandings about this. As an owner you should want to have a safe boat, not just for yourself, but for your crew and the public and other boaters around you. Yesterday there was a huge marina fire in Seattle. I will go out on a limb and say that most boat and marina fires were caused by careless behavior but in many, if not most cases, equipment that did not meet minimum safety standards. Things such as having an automatic propane shutoff valve in a sealed propane space where propane gas cannot leak out of the space but only overboard.



To each his own, but if you are one of those who prides themselves on how to get away with as much as possible I would not want to be moored next to you. A boat built to 1989 specifications can still be a dangerous boat. They have added to the "standards" because they were not rigorous enough back in 1989. That's not a good excuse to have an unsafe boat.

So I would agree with catalinajack. Your post is enlightening from a YBYC point of view. It is almost impossible to bring up a 1989 boat to 2020 standards. You would spend all your time and money on constant upgrades. My boat is 32 years old and so far no worries, safety wise. It has lasted 32 years and I am the 3rd owner. That says something so long as the vessel is taken care of.

Yet it has been posted here several times that one of the opening paragraphs in the ABYC standards is that the "standard" in question may not be achievable in older boats but a reasonable attempt should be made.

Anyone have a copy that can be they can refer to and either make available and if not at least paraphrase it?

That's my point. Reasonable attempt to correct those issue that would be dangerous to operate. USCG sets those standards, not ABYC.

However there are those Surveyors and Insurance companies that believe ABYC recommendations have the same weight as USCG regulations. In the "real" world it is the insurance companies that run the marine world. As customers we now have little choice but to capitulate to the insurance demands.

So, using your thinking, any boat built to previous standards is unsafe? Perhaps in some regards such as not having over-current protection in some circuits but you blanket statement is, well, ridiculous. Is an older boat that is wired with un-tinned wire unsafe? I don't think so but, by your standards, any boat with un-tinned wire should be re-wired cuz, yeah, the current ABYC recommendation is for tinned wire. Were you really trying to suggest that old boats are unsafe unless brought up to current recommendations?

Yet the insurance companies are the ones in the driver's seat. Then again if it gets too ridiculous I just won't carry insurance. There is no requirement for me to carry insurance or I would only carry liability.

 

[psneeld]

Tinned wire is not required by ABYC and my last 2 insurance companies would have accepted that arguement.

While I dont like to have to have that dialogue with my insurance company because it is unnecessary, occasionally surveyors, owners and insurance are all on different sheets of music... and that rubs me and others wrong.

Anyone ever need an insurance survey on th their RV?

I stand corrected, I finally saw where ABYC has added tinned wire to their standard....I guess I should have known it was only a matter of time....even though Practical Sailor disagreed it was that important back in 2008.

 

[FoxtrotCharlie]

When we bought our boat about 18 months ago the surveyor did not mention the need for a "breaker within 10' ". But he did ding the boat on the propane locker issue, even though the original 1988 install was working just fine. I now have a locker (DIY, but up to code) and remote cutoff/solenoid and propane sniffer in the galley. The locker requirement was a bit much, but the remote cutoff and sniffer are very good safety items not available in 1988, so I had no issue there. Looks like I will also be installing the same breaker as ASD now

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Looks like I will also be installing the same breaker as ASD now

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[rochepoint]

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