Survey Findings Question

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Hey TF,

Got my survey for insurance done today. Came out a lot better than I expected. Only 7 items to fix. Only 1 is ABYC. But I have a question on one of the finding:

C. The 110-volt system lacks an intermediate main circuit breaker between the shore power inlet and the circuit
breaker panel. A 50 amp circuit breaker with runs of over ten feet between the panel and shore power inlet
should be installed.
Recommendation: Install a 50 amp double pole for both lines near the aft of the salon bulk head.


So this does not make sense to me.

I understand the recommendation, kinda. Currently, It is a 21 foot run from the 50 amp shore connection to the breaker panel. Also the way the recommendation was written, it sounds like the vessel shore power does NOT go through an established circuit breaker. There are two 50 amp breakers currently on the electrical panel with Shore-Off-Ship switch.

It doesn't make sense for instance, if I have a 50 ft shore power cable that runs from the Shore Power connection on the dock which has 50 amp breakers, then according to this logic the yellow power cords would have to have circuit breakers as the runs are longer than 10 ft.

Is this recommendation in accordance with NEC rules or ABYC?

TF Family what say you?

 

[High Wire]

Those circuit breakers are to protect the boat side wires between the inlet and the panel. 10 feet is allowed but 21 feet is too far. Higher probability of a fire beyond 10 feet.
Are you sure there isn’t a fuse block or circuit breaker hidden under a gunnel somewhere? I would trace every inch to the panel.

 

[Comodave]

Yes, ABYC recommendations include a breaker within 10’ as the wire runs from the inlet to the breaker. It is to protect the wiring in case of a short. Their thinking is that 10’ is an acceptable risk. More than that isn’t an acceptable risk. It is an arbitrary distance but it is what it is. You will have to add a proper size breaker within 10’ of the inlet.

 

[SteveK]

Interesting. Without measuring I estimate 11 feet from plug to panel, hmmm? In my case I was already looking to relocate the plug-in as the cable sticking out is a shin biter.
Something to do when self isolating. (cross thread points)

 

[psneeld]

Might want to pay the extra and do an ELCI breaker.

Will tell you if your AC electrical system is leaky or not and prepare you for the newer shore power receptacles.

Yes it is a valid recommendation to meet ABYC ....just not sure that its mandatory without any new electrical work on the boat....of course your insurance will probably require it as it is simple and relatively inexpensive.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. ASD. Was that specific recommendation in force in 1988 (your boat build year)? If not, I think you should be grandfathered particularly if the rest of your wiring is in good shape and original.



I'm NOT saying it's a bad idea but where does it stop? Unless one's vessel is less than 5 years old OR has been completely rewired, a surveyor might easily find something that doesn't conform to the latest AYBC suggestions. I also think it's VERY safe to say that most probably 95% of the boats on TF don't conform to the latest and greatest.


Maybe discuss it with the surveyor OR get another survey from someone who is more realistic.

 

[Gordon J]

Exactly...

Greetings,
Mr. ASD. Was that specific recommendation in force in 1988 (your boat build year)? If not, I think you should be grandfathered particularly if the rest of your wiring is in good shape and original.



I'm NOT saying it's a bad idea but where does it stop? Unless one's vessel is less than 5 years old OR has been completely rewired, a surveyor might easily find something that doesn't conform to the latest AYBC suggestions. I also think it's VERY safe to say that most probably 95% of the boats on TF don't conform to the latest and greatest.


Maybe discuss it with the surveyor OR get another survey from someone who is more realistic.

Why is the surveyor quoting current code instead of code at the time of build?

 

[SteveK]

Why is the surveyor quoting current code instead of code at the time of build?

current code is being enforced more and more in all areas, not just boats. I see it related to residential units. Not surprising this is moving to boats. Most likely it is the insurance underwriters that are finding loopholes like this to void coverage.

 

[Comodave]

The surveyor is covering his rear. The insurance company can make you do whatever they want or you can go elsewhere and get insurance. Of course you aren’t going to do that so you will just comply. Just be glad that it wasn’t something really expensive or tough to do.

 

[Gordon J]

So perhaps this is a lesson for us

The surveyor is covering his rear. The insurance company can make you do whatever they want or you can go elsewhere and get insurance. Of course you aren’t going to do that so you will just comply. Just be glad that it wasn’t something really expensive or tough to do.

Tell the surveyor to omit all that current course stuff. I doubt, but don’t know for certain, that he is obligated to report such things???

Gordon

 

[Comodave]

Well, if the surveyor has any integrity he will not leave things he or she found out of the report. You can make the case to the insurance company that the boat complied at the time of manufacture, but they will most likely still want the breaker added. Since a lot of boat fires occur around shore power inlets they will probably want it added. It also adds safety for you and your family.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Greetings,
Mr. ASD. Was that specific recommendation in force in 1988 (your boat build year)? If not, I think you should be grandfathered particularly if the rest of your wiring is in good shape and original.



I'm NOT saying it's a bad idea but where does it stop? Unless one's vessel is less than 5 years old OR has been completely rewired, a surveyor might easily find something that doesn't conform to the latest AYBC suggestions. I also think it's VERY safe to say that most probably 95% of the boats on TF don't conform to the latest and greatest.


Maybe discuss it with the surveyor OR get another survey from someone who is more realistic.

So that is my thinking too. However the surveyor is not in the driver's seat, it't the insurance company.

current code is being enforced more and more in all areas, not just boats. I see it related to residential units. Not surprising this is moving to boats. Most likely it is the insurance underwriters that are finding loopholes like this to void coverage.

So before a house can be insured for the upcoming year, the house built in 1980 must comply with 2020 electrical standards (NEC). remember aluminum wiring.

The surveyor is covering his rear. The insurance company can make you do whatever they want or you can go elsewhere and get insurance. Of course you aren’t going to do that so you will just comply. Just be glad that it wasn’t something really expensive or tough to do.

i have sent a message to the surveyor questioning this requirement. He also told me that some surveyors are writing up boats that do not have a GFP transformer. These are a $4K or more nut. (This subject has been discussed here on TF).

 

[bglad]

An extra breaker will help you to be a smidge safer. Making sure your hull shore power connection is in good shape will make you much more safer. Most of the shore power related fires are from overheated connections that are not over-amping. They build up enough heat to ignite combustibles and eventually trip a breaker somewhere. I have seen it happen.

Transformers are not required but may save you some issues with GFP faults. Especially boats with older equipment that may be leaking current. They seem to be reasonably priced as long as they do not need to boost too.

 

[SteveK]

So before a house can be insured for the upcoming year, the house built in 1980 must comply with 2020 electrical standards (NEC). remember aluminum wiring.

Yes insurers are getting shy about aluminum, some will not insure.
House, a single family unit older is not yet that I am aware of in this context, but multi family, low and high rise properties are in need of retro fitting more and more each year. When you touch an otherwise grandfather item, you must bring it up to current standards. Example, building across the road burns down and the heat melts vinyl siding on your building. You cannot just replace the siding because the code calls for rain screening, then siding.

 

[Choices]

You may have it and he missed it. Many boats have fuses in clear, usually faded white screw in holders. Look for those close to the plug in. GBanks and Betrams all had them.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

How many here on TF have these 10ft breakers?

 

[Miz Trom]

How many here on TF have these 10ft breakers?

We do, now, after our electrical repairs. Our marine electrician, Charlie Johnson, sits on the ABYC Electrical Standards committee.


Cheers and stay safe,
Mrs. Trombley

 

[Comodave]

Our main panel is about 7’ from the inlet so we are good. Before I rewired the boat there was 2 30 amp inlets and only 1 main 30 amp breaker on the panel. President apparently did this from the factory because I examined another 41 that was wired exactly the same way. 2 30 amp inlets with one of them going directly to the bus and the other one going to the main 30 amp breaker. We now have 2 30 amp main breakers with a new main A/C-D/C panel. Back in the day there were a lot of boats wired every which way... Oh, and the surveyor did not catch the only 1 main breaker, great surveyor.

 

[Pau Hana]

How many here on TF have these 10ft breakers?

We do, Tom- when we went from twin 30A to a single 124/250 50A, I installed a switch just as you describe.

 

[High Wire]

Standard installation on Monk 36 is less than 10 feet.

 

[Pau Hana]

Greetings,
Mr. ASD. Was that specific recommendation in force in 1988 (your boat build year)? If not, I think you should be grandfathered particularly if the rest of your wiring is in good shape and original.



I'm NOT saying it's a bad idea but where does it stop? Unless one's vessel is less than 5 years old OR has been completely rewired, a surveyor might easily find something that doesn't conform to the latest AYBC suggestions. I also think it's VERY safe to say that most probably 95% of the boats on TF don't conform to the latest and greatest.


Maybe discuss it with the surveyor OR get another survey from someone who is more realistic.

WINNER!!!!

If your boat is current to the date of manufacture, you should be fine. I’ve argued this exact thing more than once with underwriters based on simple math- requiring the insured to completely rewire the vessel (in my case, a 1989) to make it align with 2020 standards can cost thousands of $$$ in labor costs alone- not realistic.

 

[psneeld]

I have argued dozens of topics with my insurers and they agreed. Most of the simple inexpensive ones that make sense anyhow, I just do.

My favorite was a bubble in the compass on my last boat. My navigational limits were the Chesapeake and Delaware (inland wareways). The compass worked fine so not sure why it was even an issue. I fixed it eventually...not sure if it met their deadline of having it fixed before I used the boat or not. .

 

[Pau Hana]

I have argued dozens of topics with my insurers and they agreed. Most of the simple inexpensive ones that make sense anyhow, I just do.

My favorite was a bubble in the compass on my last boat. My navigational limits were the Chesapeake and Delaware (inland wareways). The compass worked fine so not sure why it was even an issue. I fixed it eventually...not sure if it met their deadline of having it fixed before I used the boat or not. .

My challenge is that underwriters often want to make correcting such “deficiencies” a requirement of binding coverage- that is, no coverage till they are fixed.

The problem with this is that the prospective buyer cannot repair the vessel until they own it, and the seller doesn’t want to put any more $$ into the vessel....

 

[SteveK]

My challenge is that underwriters often want to make correcting such “deficiencies” a requirement of binding coverage- that is, no coverage till they are fixed.

The problem with this is that the prospective buyer cannot repair the vessel until they own it, and the seller doesn’t want to put any more $$ into the vessel....

That is exactly what I ran into on this purchase. Fortunately the boat went on the hard and we had the opportunity to resolve 7 survey recommendations. Some were minor, but insurer did not want any unresolved.

 

[SteveK]

I have argued dozens of topics with my insurers and they agreed. Most of the simple inexpensive ones that make sense anyhow, I just do.

My favorite was a bubble in the compass on my last boat. My navigational limits were the Chesapeake and Delaware (inland waterways). The compass worked fine so not sure why it was even an issue. I fixed it eventually...not sure if it met their deadline of having it fixed before I used the boat or not. .

The air bubble in the compass, been a few years since heard that one. Back then it was important. Now, who looks at a compass bearing.

 

[psneeld]

They have their use in fog...the main times I use it nowadays....but the bubble was not interfering with operation.

So when does a problem go from annoying to safety? Obviously at any point and only worth arguing when the cost or effort exceeds reasonableness.

 

[Pau Hana]

That is exactly what I ran into on this purchase. Fortunately the boat went on the hard and we had the opportunity to resolve 7 survey recommendations. Some were minor, but insurer did not want any unresolved.

As a non lawyer, I’ve been very successful in getting underwriters to see things my way and not put such heinous restrictions on getting a policy. I do understand (and agree) if a vessel’s survey shows it’s better suited to be dismantled vice resold that such restrictions be enacted- but not for a boat with the usual and expected wear and tear based solely on its age.

 

[SteveK]

As a non lawyer, I’ve been very successful in getting underwriters to see things my way and not put such heinous restrictions on getting a policy. I do understand (and agree) if a vessel’s survey shows it’s better suited to be dismantled vice resold that such restrictions be enacted- but not for a boat with the usual and expected wear and tear based solely on its age.

I think what you say is accurate, I also think the pendulum will swing to cherry picked insuring forcing more people to do what was not previously required.
I reviewed the survey and in my case I agree with the surveyor and insurer, these were safety item recommendations. Noted also was that some were mentioned in a 3 year old survey and which were ignored, items mentioned again brought forward.
Perhaps insurers are starting to see that once insured recommendations are ignored, and now they will look for them to be done before insuring. A new trend coming?

 

[SteveK]

They have their use in fog...the main times I use it nowadays....but the bubble was not interfering with operation.

So when does a problem go from annoying to safety? Obviously at any point and only worth arguing when the cost or effort exceeds reasonableness.

I have used a compass (with sounder) in fog prior to having radar or gps.

 

[psneeld]

At slow speeds, GPS "heading" can be sketchy.....if you need a very narrow path back to achannel while getting underway from anchor in a strong current, a compass heading in s great till the gps kicks in accurately.