Is a survey enough?

[Blissboat]

Not everyone can afford a 15 year old boat.

Not everyone can afford a boat, for that matter. But the OP mentioned $200K. IMO, that much do-re-mi ought to turn up boats that haven't been getting passed around between seven owners in 35 years.

 

[Bacchus]

Idle thoughts to add to the above.
Hope this helps!

Scot
Excellent list and advice.
Worthy of note for ANY buyer
Don

 

[proudsailor]

Slowgoesit- all great points. Thanks. Batteries are FLA, deck is screwed down, there is legacy wiring and systems that need to be pulled. Lots of re-bedding work to do. Will gladly share more when I know the direction of this deal. Out of respect for seller and broker, purposely being pretty vague. But bank and insurance are on board w/ this boat.

For those lamenting the price- concur $200K is a lot for an older trawler, but the boat is stabilized, rebuilt Lehman, long range, dinghy w/ motor, life raft, new thrusters fore and aft, ok electronics, camera aft and in engine room, some newer mechanicals, new fuel tank, etc. If brought up to my standards (it does need work, but work I generally enjoy doing), we could go very far on her and feel quite safe doing so. I wish we could afford a newer full displacement and stabilized 2 head/2 SR long distance trawler. They're not out there for $200k right now. Or if they are, they're likely really nice floating condos or pleasant weather coastal cruisers. Or they burn lots of fuel running twin engines on semi-displacement hulls- not our cup of tea. Or we wait another five years to save up the money to get something newer. I'm in healthcare- tomorrow isn't guaranteed, let alone 5 years from now. So what to do? Hence my initial post on how to proceed!

We love all the ideas shared here. And if this deal falls through, will approach future deals with everyone's suggestions/recommendations/checklists/opinions/websites forefront. Just from this TF inquiry we've learned that we should have approached our initial two boardings/showings of this boat VERY differently. Very. All of this being said- wow! We're officially much smarter buyers after having the good fortune of this group's wisdom. Hope others in the market reading this are as well. Stay tuned. Keep the ideas coming. And if you're looking to sell your 2015 full displacement long distance stabilized trawler with 2 heads and 2 staterooms for around $200k, please PM me!

 

[Delta Riverat]

We paid 93 grand for "Dream Catcher" with 2 bad heads. Cost 11 grand to replace the heads and correct all the stuff the "head guy" found "down there" while doing the heads.

Filthy bilge, bad electrical, bad plumbing, pumps not working, sensors not working, starboard engine strainer broken off mount and lots of stuff that needed adjusting.

I did engine oil & filters, gear oil and filters, fuel filters (all 8) and raw water impellers for parts and my labor.

So I bought a 43 year old boat for 93+15=108

No stabilizers, twin engines, no dingy, no life boat, semi displacement. Yeah old boats.

But I had a 100 grand budget in mind and you know how that goes...

Good luck on your search.

 

[BruceK]

We paid 93 grand for "Dream Catcher" with 2 bad heads. Cost 11 grand to replace the heads and correct all the stuff the "head guy" found "down there" while doing the heads.

Filthy bilge, bad electrical, bad plumbing, pumps not working, sensors not working, starboard engine strainer broken off mount and lots of stuff that needed adjusting.....

Fine example of issues partly detected at survey. Illustrating the "Strawberry Punnet Syndrome" (the deeper you go the worse it gets). Survey won`t catch everything,and what it catches usually looks to cost way less than when you pay for the expanded scope work.
It`s still better to survey than not. Probably at its zenith when the basis to walk. Even so, you get some information,depth breadth and extent determined on your $ after doing the deal.

 

[mvweebles]

My hunch is the more problems a boat has, the harder it is for a surveyor to evaluate just how bad the repair will be. Surveyor may note some sort of electrical issue that could be a quick fix, or take a seasoned electrician days to track down. When I booted the half-assed guys off Weebles, I had a SAMS surveyor in to do a point-in-time survey, partially for liability reasons in case the incompetent owner at Niza Marine (pictures at www.NizaMarine.net) tried to claim something that wasn't true. The surveyor could certainly tell the electrical system installation wasn't complete. What he couldn't easily tell is that what was there was wrong and had to be torn-out. I recall sending a bunch of extra 2/0 cable at Niza's request which was odd since I always send extra to prevent a delay in work. I found out why. Rather than follow the detailed wiring diagram and wire the thruster into the 2xG31 batteries 5-feet away (also used for generator start battery), they ran cable to the house battery bank in the lazarette (a long distance for 400A on 2/0).. I don't fault the surveyor for not picking that up, just note that because the wiring was a mess at the time, his job was really hard.

Guys, I have to call flag-on-the-play on speculating that $200k for an older Taiwan trawler is overpriced. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. The OP has held the particulars of the boat close to his vest. Right now on the TF classifieds is a Defever 49 for $310k, and a KK 42 for $280k. RT Fireflys Cheoy Lee 47 which he sold for around $135k is for sale on YW for $250k. I can't explain pricing these days, but the OPs target is unidentified. Who knows if it's a good deal or not.

Peter

 

[cardude01]

I agree. After more details just posted it’s very possible it’s worth the 200k to the possible new owner. Ticks lots of his boxes, and it sounds like his eyes are wide open to the issues he will most likely encounter.

 

[Gdavid]

I agree with others about the price and age of vessel and while it really isn't my business as long as you are satisfied.

I do strongly suggest figuring out the insurance for it ahead of time. If you can't get the coverage you want for it considering the level of investment, it would be better to find out now.

 

[koliver]

Whether to spend $35/ft (BC prices on an insurance survey. Purchase survey is likely more) on a survey or not?
In shopping, on a boat that i was very interested in, but had little access to the boat and no access to the seller, I had it hauled and a survey. The survey found a number of things wrong, that I knew about, and some that I hadn't known about, in fact that I wouldn't have checked. Those were the things that made that survey vital, and from which I rejected that deal. If your survey detects issues that would otherwise have eluded you and would cost far more than the cost of the survey to fix, it is very worth while. Finding a surveyor in whom you have that level of confidence is the key.

 

[Finnegus]

Run away from this one. I cannot think of a 80s mass production boat worth this much. There is so much to go wrong and a through survey is not going to catch everything. How are the tanks? if the boat is in poor maintenance you know that the engines are also regardless of what is said about them. I have bought boats without a survey because I know the brand, I had direct contact with the owner and I know they knew what they were doing and they maintained the boat. I bought a newer boat with a full mech survey and still had a major repair due to a bad shaft log that was missed by everybody.

 

[once a sailor]

black iron

Fuel tanks material and condition on older boats

 

[Bob M]

Is a survey enough? In my experience, no.

The cost of surveys is negligible compared to the cost of marine repairs. If you're not skilled enough or experienced enough to be the 2nd surveyor, I'd hire one.

Also consider that boat surveyors are rarely also drive train surveyors.

Every old boat I've purchased has turned out to be a project boat and some had very clean surveys. I like refurbishing boats, so for me, buying old works, mostly. It's not a good choice for everyone.

 

[proudsailor]

Update- went to survey last week and all was not as it was advertised! Someone mentioned that when buying a 35yo boat, "the story" is as important as the boat. I officially concur. No maintenance, little use, even less oil changes. An amazing surveyor, Allied Marine Surveyor discovered so much stuff that the boat no longer became a reasonable deal. Was willing to negotiate on the significant deck issues. But an engine that sat for years with limited use, very limited maintenance, and only two oil changes proved too much. Would have been a financial undertaking just to make the engine sea worthy. My lesson learned is that maintenance records count. Yes a survey would have "reset" to baseline, but I could have avoided the survey had I made this post and gotten the great info before going to contract. Thanks everyone!

 

[Shrew]

Update- went to survey last week and all was not as it was advertised! Someone mentioned that when buying a 35yo boat, "the story" is as important as the boat. I officially concur. No maintenance, little use, even less oil changes. An amazing surveyor, Allied Marine Surveyor discovered so much stuff that the boat no longer became a reasonable deal. Was willing to negotiate on the significant deck issues. But an engine that sat for years with limited use, very limited maintenance, and only two oil changes proved too much. Would have been a financial undertaking just to make the engine sea worthy. My lesson learned is that maintenance records count. Yes a survey would have "reset" to baseline, but I could have avoided the survey had I made this post and gotten the great info before going to contract. Thanks everyone!

I would walk at the rotted deck coring to begin with. That would be enough. However, my curiosity is piqued. for example:

1) Two oils changes over what period?

2) How do you know there were only two oil changes?? The survey won't show that.

3) A mid 80's Taiwan trawler for over $200K?? That seems steep to me.

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Service records, or lack thereof don't really mean anything. I don't log service at all. I don't keep receipts. Everything on a boat has three possible states:

1) Just replaced
2) About to fail
3) Broken

Either the item works or it doesn't. When it was replaced isn't that relevant. A simply inspection will tell you it relative age, or how well it aged The survey will verify whether it works or it doesn't. You're not buying a new boat, there should be no expectation that everything is new.

 

[proudsailor]

I would walk at the rotted deck coring to begin with. That would be enough. However, my curiosity is piqued. for example:

1) Two oils changes over what period?

7 years. Owner bought over 7 years ago, changed it midway and then recently changed it just around the listing date I'm guessing (oil looked brand new per the engine mechanic)

2) How do you know there were only two oil changes?? The survey won't show that.

But when the owner tells you.....

3) A mid 80's Taiwan trawler for over $200K?? That seems steep to me.

Again, it had a lot of nice stuff on it. And had it been maintained in much better shape, would've commanded it. The nature of the brand.

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Service records, or lack thereof don't really mean anything. I don't log service at all. I don't keep receipts. Everything on a boat has three possible states:

1) Just replaced

But is just replaced last week? Last year? Last decade? I'm always wowed by listings that say "new in 2015". Is an engine overhaul done only 700hrs ago but in 2013 recent?

2) About to fail

See #1 response

3) Broken

Lots of broken.

Either the item works or it doesn't. When it was replaced isn't that relevant. A simply inspection will tell you it relative age, or how well it aged The survey will verify whether it works or it doesn't. You're not buying a new boat, there should be no expectation that everything is new.

.

Concur- and I didn't expect everything is new on a 30+ year old boat. Thanks for the input and best of luck to you when it comes time to sell!

 

[firehoser75]

"Service records, or lack thereof don't really mean anything."
While I agree that service records are not the "be all to end all", I do feel that having access to good service records has value!! Therefore, I respectfully (in general) disagree with that statement.

Having no service records or invoices of any kind is quite possibly an indication of "lack" of GOOD (or maybe any) maintenance in many instances. Now, yes, some owners put labels on filters, pumps, etc. to track the last change, but that in my mind is most likely incomplete (not all maintenance can be accurately tracked this way), and in many of the cases where there are no records, the labelling is not done either. How can an owner accurately know when work was done, when work should be done, and what hasn't been done without records?? Just "gut" feel?? I found there was way, way too many things that SHOULD be done maintenance wise to trust my memory. I sincerely doubt that many people could rely on their memory and actually "keep up" all recommended maintenance on all items on a trawler requiring regular maintenance. IMHO.

I also believe that regular preventive maintenance will greatly reduce the likelihood of unexpected breakdowns, will usually result in a longer service life, and will enable the early detection of developing issues compared to not doing the maintenance.

Now, with all that being said, good records don't "guarantee" anything. I would still consider a boat without a written maintenance history. However, I would be more cautious, have more questions for the owner, would expect more potential issues, etc. and would act (and offer) accordingly if the boat passed my first careful inspection. But that is just me, and I tend to be a bit "prudent", especially in these types of things.

ProudSailor, it sounds like you made the best decision, and most importantly "learned alot" that will be of great use to you in the future.
Good luck.