Which Style Trawler?

[Tony B]

We are selling our 39' ketch for a Trawler. As soon as my sailboat is sold, I will own a trawler in less than a week. I have always boat shopped quickly. So, between now and the sale, I am looking at trawlers. We have narrowed it down to 34 to 38' long with a single engine 120 to 160 HP. When looking for an older boat, you don't always have a choice in what you find although in the past I have done well. Reason being that sailing it 1000 miles home is a lot different and cheaper than motoring it 1,000 miles or more. We live aboard in Kemah, Tx and were looking on the internet at boats in Conn. - just a wee-tad? over 1000 miles. probably more like 3,000. Anyway, here is where we stand. I like the overall looks of an aft cabin model like in most Marine Traders. The admiral has not yet been inside a 34' boat of that style, only a 40' which we decided might be too big. We are trying to narrow down the search - 34 to 38' aft cabin style or 36' to 38' sedan/ Europa style. There are definite advantages to each and I am open to either.

I looked at a previous thread wherein owners stated the 3 main likes and dislikes of their boats and it was interesting. I hadn't given much thought to the overhead protection from rain with the sedan style until reading some of the posts.

Is there anyone here that after cruising or living aboard for a while wished that had bought the 'other' style and why?

*

Thanks in advance.

*

Tony B

 

[JohnP]

Tony,* If you intend to live aboard, you* should consider trawlers in the 40 to 42 foot range.* They have a lot more storage, and if you find a single engine they will be just as fuel efficient as the smaller ones. (Maybe even better).

My 2 cents.** JohnP

 

[Tony B]

I have not yet completely discounted a 40 footer. There is one for sale in my area but has twin 120's and I think that the fuel costs will be too high to be practical for my budget.
I was on a different forum and the concensus of opinion was that running on one engine will consume only 5% less than running on two. I find that hard to believe and have not checked that out yet with an expert. There is lots of misinformation on the web and old wives tales never die so I don't know what to believe after a while.

 

[Moonstruck]

Tony B,

Of course you can live on a 34' boat.* Cap'n Chuck does it quite well on Beach House.* However, the longer you are on a boat, the smaller it seems to get.* When first going aboard a 40-44' boat it can seem huge, but will seem smaller over time.* Most live aboards I have seen choose something in this size range.* A longer boat will cruise a little faster without affecting the economy too much.

I think it as been suggested by Marin and others the advantage of chartering to get familiar with trawlering.* I would charter a couple of times in different sized boats.* Larger boats can give space for larger appliaces and more comfortable furniture.* Your first mate should have much to do with the selection.* Crew happiness can affect the experience greatly.

I personally prefer the Europa style with fewer stairs than others.* The trade off--usually a smaller stateroom or maybe one head instead of two.* Sundeck styles have commodius spaces and entertaining areas but many steps.* Classic styles are easy to get around on deck, but give up a little interior and entertaining*space.* Just a matter of personal choice and how your knees are holding up.* The Europa style is great for stepping out the transom door and into the dinghy

If you do much anchoring, a good dinghy is essential.

Your quest is very interesting. I hope you keep us posted as you progress.* Good luck.

 

[Tony B]

We have been living aboard for around 12 years or so. We started on* Catalina 25 in Biloxi, Ms. and moved up to a Catalina 30 in Slidell, La. Hurricane Katrina put and end to that and now we live on an Allied 39' Ketch in Kemah, Tx. The inside of a 34 aft cabin trawler*has much more living space than my current 39' sailboat. *
*A longer boat will cruise a little faster without affecting the economy too much.

I suspected so as in sailboats. The longer the hull, the longer the wavelength and thus the higher speed without pushing a wall od water. Thanks for putting to bed my suspicions.

The Admiral says that we can buy anything for the trip but I had to promise her that when we get back, we will buy a 40 footer to live on.

I am 64 years old and she is of undertermined age (is that safe enough for me?). At present neither of us has any issues with climbing stairs or ladders although she prefers not to which makes the aft cabin model better for her. Stairs inside the boat dont count. On the other hand, she likes to open free feeling of the Europa type when sitting inside. I think since we are pretty open in design and only limited by money (pretty major issue) we will probably grab the first boat priced right and in good condition.

And, I will keep you all posted.

*

Keep the posts coming. Each one leads me to feel better about this whole transition.

*

Tony B

*

*

*

*.

*

*


-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Wednesday 20th of July 2011 07:51:43 AM

 

[Tom.B]

I can't comment too much on how successful a one-week shopping frenzy for your next boat can be. It seem WAY too limiting, ESPECIALLY since you are going from an entirely different class of boat to another. I can't endorse such behavior. I think there is far more of a chance of picking the wrong boat for your needs. Nevertheless, you seem to be asking the same questions over and over in different ways over many different threads. You need to worry less about fuel burn and more about the condition of the engines in general. If you ask me, your putting too much weight of fuel numbers. I don't fault you for thinking that coming from the sailing community. It's a power boat. You are going to have to buy a lot of fuel or sit still more. While sailboats don't use NEARLY the fuel, there are just as many other costs that offset those. So in the end, it's about the same operating expense.

TAKE YOUR TIME! Let your wife decide on which boat you are going to LIVE aboard. My question to you is: Why shop for boats 3000 miles away?

 

[Woodsong]

My only issue with a europa style with a cockpit is that is going to mean your master stateroom is in the bow. After having owned a sedan for 4-5 years prior to our trawler with a bow forward stateroom, and now having our Monk with her centerline queen berth aft, I can tell you- I would not want a bow forward stateroom as a liveaboard but that is just me! It is GREAT to be able to climb into bed on either side of it and not be crammed in the bow. I suggest you start looking at as many trawlers of different styles that you can find so you all can get the best idea of which type/style boat you prefer. The covered decks of a europa sedan can definitely be nice but I tell you what, i love our little Monk.
I agree with others that for a liveaboard a 40 foot or more vessel will give you the most day to day comfort while at the same time relatively affordable to own and run and berth. If you like a europa, I'd check out the 45' CHB sedans like this one:
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1981/Chb-Sedan-Trawler-2094873/Peoria/IL/United-States
From the pics that one looks to be in very good shape and a very good price and you could cruise her down the river system to TX.

 

[Tom.B]

That's a good point, Tony. The v-berth mater stateroom in a boat with a semi-displacement hull also has an excess of water noise slapping against the chines, even on the calmest of days. It's soothing to some, but it keeps me awake.

 

[Marin]

Tony B wrote:

Is there anyone here that after cruising or living aboard for a while wished that had bought the 'other' style and why?

*Tony--- Good question.* We bought a tri-cabin GB36 because it came on the market at the right time, it met our boating budget (sort of), and it is the same configuration of GB we had chartered.

Having had the boat now for 13 years I can say I like this configuration and I don't.* The advantage is if you have guests on board, which we got into boating vowing never to have.* So the forward cabin became a great storage space and "workshop."*

The last few years, however, it's been turning out otherwise as good friends from my television days in Hawaii have moved here and good friends from France have been visiting more often.* We've been taking these folks out on the boat fairly regularly, in the San Juans and north into BC.* So the tri-cabin configuration with its two separated staterooms and two heads is a major benefit in a boat of this size.

But.... we live in the PNW where climate change is, if anything, making it even more rainy and windy that it usually is.* For example, as I write this it is barely 60 degrees, cloudy, with light rain showers and this is the middle of July.* So were we in the market for a boat again, knowing what we know now, we would go for the Europa configuration with the covered side and aft decks.* The aft deck can be enclosed with curtains and plastic windows enabling one to be "outside" while not being outside.

The downside is that in a 36' boat, or at least a 36' Grand Banks, the Europa configuration has only one stateroom and only one head.* So if you have guests, someone has to sleep on a berth made up in the main cabin, and everyone has to use the same head up forward.

The solution, of course, is to get a bigger boat in the Europa configuration.* The GB42 and GB46 can have two or even three staterooms up forward so nobody has to sleep in the main cabin.* But that's more money.

The Grand Banks is not our preferred configuation of boat.* We both prefer a pilothouse boat.* Our ideal is a Fleming 55 or a deFever 46.* We really like the Krogen design but we both prefer a twin engine boat, albeit for different reasons, so that is the only way we'd probably ever go (unless I can find a boat with three engines ) so that rules out the Krogen.

But for a rainy, damp, windy climate, I think the Europa configuration in any size boat offers a real advantage.* I can't speak for what works best in a hot climate because I detest hot weather so would never find myself boating in a climate like that.* For me, the US stops at the southern Oregon border and the east side of the Rocky Mountains although having now visited there I also include Maine.* The rest of it can be given back to whoever we stole it from


-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 20th of July 2011 10:55:59 AM

 

[yachtbrokerguy]

As a live aboard, layout and space available is much more important than single engine or twin engines, do not reject boats that are closer to you because they have twins. Yes engine maintenance is higher than a single but the fuel usage is not really a major factor. When considering cost of dockage, insurance, maintenance and everything else the fuel usage for most owners is a small percentage overall, and the extra fuel for twins over a single will only be a minor percentage of the whole.

 

[Marin]

yachtbrokerguy wrote:
When considering cost of dockage, insurance, maintenance and everything else the fuel usage for most owners is a small percentage overall, and the extra fuel for twins over a single will only be a minor percentage of the whole.

*This is true until you have to do expensive things.* When the engine mounts in our boat finally wore out we had to replace two sets of them, not one.* That meant the time, effort, and labor cost of disconnecting and jacking up two engines, not just one.* There are two sets of cutless bearings wearing out, two shaft that might need straightening or replacing, two exhaust systems that someday may need replacing, two props that someday will need reworking or replacement, and so on.*

Having had all of these things and more*done on our boat over the years I feel safe in saying that while the fuel and routine maintenance costs of a twin over a single are not significantly different, the overall cost of having two engines in the boat vs just one can, over time, be very signficantly different.* And the older the boat, the more likely these expensive engine/transmission/running gear*maintenenance, repair, replacement,*or upgrade jobs will be.

That said we still prefer a twin over a single engine boat, but one pays a hefty price over time*for that second engine.


-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 20th of July 2011 05:28:44 PM

 

[Peter B]

Marin wrote....
".....But for a rainy, damp, windy climate, I think the Europa configuration in any size boat offers a real advantage. I can't speak for what works best in a hot climate because I detest hot weather so would never find myself boating in a climate like that........"

Tony, I initially was sold on the idea of the aft cabin type boat for the accommodation reasons Marin and others have already mentioned, but in reality one does not take friends or family out on longer than extended day outings very often...I think most would agree on that.* My wife would not hear of an aft cabin style, she wanted a Europa/sedan style, and that was that.* So, as that style in the CHB 34 vintage I could afford to buy debt free, which was the aim, it took longer to find one - few were made in that style back in the 70s and 80s - now they nearly all are.* That last statement is worth pondering over....

Coming back to Marin's comment above, I can now admit, and we did finally find*a 1975 vintage sedan (see avatar),*some 10 yrs ago, and I have to admit my wife was right, and it was worth the wait.* We are in Queensland, a climate Marin would probably not like, but I can at least confirm the covered side decks and cockpit and the sort of indoor-outdoor type of living it allows for, are just as good in the hotter climate conditions*as the cooler wetter conditions, only in this case it shelters from the sun, and also the sudden tropical downpours, without having to shut everything up.

Others have said enough on the number of engines, but one thing I would say is the only gripe we have is the Vee berth, and if I was going to live aboard, like others have said, I also would strongly endorse the move to the 40 -45 ft size.* Then you can still have the nice covered cockpit, and a queen-sized walk-around bed in the bow, and probably a separate bunk room up front for the odd guest (or storage), as well, with at least one decent sized bathroom.

The other option mentioned by some of the raised sun-deck type with both for'd and aft staterooms, but with the full-sized cockpit - well more like a terrace really, (and probably a bit less*safe for grandkids?),*above the aft room, is also a good compromise for the outdoor living aspect and accommodation potential, but has the downside generally of moving the whole operation into the bigger sizes again, (44ft plus, although the new Corvette 34 is an exception),*and some dock/dinghy-handling issues caused by height above the water, the lack of a near-waterline access to swim step, dinghy, and for fishing etc, and probably twin engines almost without exception.* That's my cent's worth....


-- Edited by Peter B on Wednesday 20th of July 2011 07:04:06 PM

 

[Marin]

Peter B wrote:
...but in reality one does not take friends or family out on longer than extended day outings very often...

We've actually had friends on the boat with us for between one and two weeks up in BC on more occasions than we would have thought possible*when we bought the boat. And for this, having the two separate staterooms with the main cabin in between is a real plus.* Our guests can arrange their stuff however they want in "their" cabin and we dont' have to straighten ours up all the time.* The main cabin, which is also where the lower helm station (the only one we use) and the galley are, is neutral territory and can be used by anyone at any time, even when everyone else is still in bed.

I think making up and tearing down a berth every evening and morning in the main cabin, which is what we'd have to do if the boat were a GB36 Europa, would get old pretty fast.* We've had to do this on some of the narrowboats we've used in the UK and it became annoying in short order.

So both configurations--- tri-cabin and Europa-- have their advantages.* I think for us, like Peter, the Europa would serve us better other than the times we have friends on* the boat for longer cruises.* But when we do have other people aboard for more than a day cruise, those two staterooms and heads sure are fine....

Peter mentioned the so-called "sundeck" configuration (what Grand Banks calls a "Motoryacht").* No question this can*provide*a lot of usable space inside the boat but it's not a configuration that appeals to either my wife or I.* For us,*the kind of boating we do and where we do it make*a full-width (however you want to define that) walk-around main*deck an absolute*requirement.* For a liveaboard, however, the sundeck configuration may indeed be an excellent configuration.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 20th of July 2011 08:20:14 PM

 

[Tony B]

I would like to thank everyone for their input. What I am coming away with is that a 40 footer is now back in the running. As for the pros and cons of Sedan type vs. Aft Cabin config. they all seem to balance out for me. This is good because rather than be in a state of confusion or indecision, I am equally receptive to either one. This frees me up to select the best buy for the money regardless of the configuration. If I like it - I buy it. My wife and I are easy to satisfy. We can make any plan work. We are very happy living aboard our 39' ketch. Even a 34' trawler has more room inside than we currently have. We don't want a project boat, but are willing to stop just short of that. Our main criteria is that the day we buy a boat it is capable of cruising even though we wont be ready. Cosmetics are not a problem. I have a woodworking business in which I design and build furniture as well as refinish furniture and antiques. I have turbine type spray equipment that is portable.
As a matter of fact, tomorrow, we are going to make an offer on a 40' trawler that we passed up before. I just don't like the idea of owning 2 boats at the same time. I am optimistic about selling my ketch. It's not like I haven't been this route before.

 

[Woodsong]

Tony,
Great attitude and going into your next purchase open to different designs, etc. really frees you up for finding the right deal on the right boat.


P.S. good name you have- my name is Tony as well!

 

[FF]

"Cosmetics are not a problem. I have a woodworking business in which I design and build furniture as well as refinish furniture and antiques."

Big difference between refinishing and tearing up a TT "composite" teak deck, or cabin walls, replacing the plywood and then restoring structural integrity.

 

[Tony B]

FF wrote:
"Cosmetics are not a problem. I have a woodworking business in which I design and build furniture as well as refinish furniture and antiques."

Big difference between refinishing and tearing up a TT "composite" teak deck, or cabin walls, replacing the plywood and then restoring structural integrity.

*I forgot to mention that I also work on boats. I build boat cabinetry, companionway doors, etc.,*and also do fiberglass repairs. And yes, you are correct, there is a difference - big difference.

 

[bobc]

Marin wrote:

The downside is that in a 36' boat, or at least a 36' Grand Banks, the Europa configuration has only one stateroom and only one head.* So if you have guests, someone has to sleep on a berth made up in the main cabin, and everyone has to use the same head up forward.
-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 20th of July 2011 10:55:59 AM

*The GB36 Europa is a very nice boat.* I've only been on one, but that boat had a midship stateroom on the port side.* The owners used this as their master stateroom. The boat, "Prelude", was for sale a couple of years ago and was located in a boathouse in Everett.* It did only have one head. * **


-- Edited by bobc on Friday 22nd of July 2011 09:46:00 AM

 

[Alfton]

Tony,
*
Want to look at my Pilgrim 40 in Kemah?
*
*
Regards
John Allison
Pilgrim 40 Hull #18
Kemah, Texas 77565
(281) 802 - 4721

 

[markpierce]

John, is this where you got your boat?

http://www.tugboatalley.com/shop/quikview.cfm?CategoryID=41

(Sorry, I couldn't help myself.* Your boat even has "eyes.")

*

 

[Alfton]

I put the eyes on as a joke toward the Admiral.* If she would have let me I would have named the boat "Toot" or "Scruffy" I would have.*

*

She did not want to hear "Toot, Toot, Toot" on the radio.* Originally she had no patience for peoples jokes about the name,*but since I put the eyes on it she has come around to the humor side.* She has not come around enough to let me rename the boat.

 

[Woodsong]

John,
I have to say, I think you have my favorite avatar on all of trawlerforum- it must have cost you a fortune to get all those hot air ballons to stage themselves behind your boat for the glamour pictures!!

 

[Tony B]

John

We made an offer on a boat today - totally financially irresponsible since our current boat just made it on Yachtworld.com. I think your boat is way too cool for school so let's see if it is in my budget. I will call you tomorrow.
Thanks.

Tony B


-- Edited by Tony B on Friday 22nd of July 2011 05:45:09 PM

 

[markpierce]

I admit liking tuggies.* One of my first memories was following my plastic toy tug boat*along the curb during a heavy rain storm.* Was "condemned" from the start.

*


-- Edited by markpierce on Friday 22nd of July 2011 07:44:40 PM

 

[Tony B]

markpierce wrote:
I admit liking tuggies.* One of my first memories was following my plastic toy tug boat*along the curb during a heavy rain storm.* Was "condemned" from the start.

*



-- Edited by markpierce on Friday 22nd of July 2011 07:44:40 PM

*Wow !!!! You actually had a toy tug. I used to use old popsicle sticks I found on the sidewalk. This is the first time I have heard of anyone besides myself following their boat along the curb. The major difference is that we pronounced it 'coib'. There are no 'oz' where I come from.

I completely forgot about all of that. Thanks for the memory.

I used to make pirate ships fron old egg cartons.

 

[Woodsong]

SO what did you make an offer on Tony? You are certainly not wasting time and I can only assume your haste in this matter is due to the stellar job of providing you a lightening quick education on all things trawlers!

 

[Tony B]

I made an offer on a 1986 40' CT. I made what may appear to be a rediculous offer but my offer was based on what it is worth to me and not what it is worth on the open market. The seller has been constantly dropping his price. I told the broker to tell the seller to not bother making an counter offer cause I wouldn't be interested in it for a dime more. All bets are off after Monday. So lets see what happens.
The Hull looks OK. We fired it up and put it in gear and the engine and drive train seem OK. The main deck has teak so I will depend on a surveyor to be able to see it there is any issues there because I dont have a moisture meter. The upper deck is rough lookin. He put in a roof mounted AC unit and he cut through the roof beams. This appears to have weakened the roof/upper deck because he glassed in a sheet of plywood onto the upper deck in an attempt to stiffen it up. Inside he attached a steel channel iron across the roofline under one of the beams to stiffen it up. Even at best, this is all sloppy work. His neighbors told me that the boat does go out from time to time.
The interior is very nasty. For a 1986 model, this boat looks really rough. The varnish looks like it was applied with a trowel - major stripping job here. There is also a floor model AC unit in the aft stateroom with 4" insulated hose atached. I suspect the old underwear on the floor stays with the boat.
There is a regular house type refrige on the boat - looks fairly new but I was afraid to open. It will have to go also.
Oh yeah, the cabin exterior was painted a while back with what appears to be house paint. You can see where it is chipping.
I believe his listing started at $49K and he gradully started dropping the price down. The current price is $24K. I offered $19K. By the time this boat gets cleaned up, repaired and new 12V appliances added it will see at least another $20 to $25K and that is with me doing all of the work. The big advantage would be is that everything would be new.
I have a Port Supply account and am also an authorized dealer for Mermaid Air Conditioners.
Anyway, this could be a good opportunity. If however, he declines my offer, my feeling would not be hurt. After all, I haven't sold my sailboat yet and we are about to enter what I call the Gulf Hurricane Season and 2 boats can be a nightmare.

 

[Tony B]

Woodsong wrote:
.......*You are certainly not wasting time and I can only assume your haste in this matter is due to the stellar job of providing you a lightening quick education on all things trawlers!

*Fair assumption and thanks to all for the help.

I have learned that I will probably get about 2.5NM / Gal. Nailing that figure down is crucial in planning. With a 6 to 8,000 mile trip, the bucks add up. Also the pros and cons of the different style trawlers confirmed what I have also thought about. I am not new to boating, but I am new to power boating. A totally different world.

You are also correct in that I waste no time. Never did. That's just the way I roll.

Anyway, the journey into the world of powerboating and trawlering is about to begin.

As a side note - when boat shopping, my main criteria is that regardless of looks, I must be able to sail and motor the boat the day I buy it. It's a lot easier to work on a boat while enjoying it also. Boats are not meant to be tied to docks for long periods. That gets old quick and then the ambition fades.

 

[FF]

"Nailing that figure down is crucial in planning."

Nailing that figure down is easy , you might not like the speed tho.

A cruising prop might be worth the added expense if you already plan on a spare prop.

 

[Tony B]

The figure is around 2.5GPH @ 7 knots for a 40. About 6 knots for 36 with a 120HP engine. That's pretty nailed down I would think and I can deal with that kind of mileage. At least now I know what to expect. It's not like I have a choice in the matter. It is what it is.

The only other choice*I would have is to*use my current boat and have the masts removed at certain points and shipped and reinstalled at other places at $1,000 a pop. A trawler would afford us much more room for living and for supplies. It;s a choice we made.*

BTW, what is a cruising prop? And why wouldn't one have been on there by the manufacturer?


-- Edited by Tony B on Sunday 24th of July 2011 06:32:25 AM