State of residency for a full time live-aboard

[ProMaritime]

A vessel cannot be USCG documented and state registered at the same time. If a documented vessel becomes state registered its USCG documentation is automatically invalidated. You will probably have no way of knowing this since the USCG probably will not know of the vessel's state registration and will continue to send its renewal notices. However, when the BAD happens, especially in foreign waters you could be in big trouble.

 

[BandB]

A vessel cannot be USCG documented and state registered at the same time. If a documented vessel becomes state registered its USCG documentation is automatically invalidated. You will probably have no way of knowing this since the USCG probably will not know of the vessel's state registration and will continue to send its renewal notices. However, when the BAD happens, especially in foreign waters you could be in big trouble.

That is just so inaccurate. They can and are documented and state registered. However, they cannot be state titled. Huge difference. Also, they can't display state numbers but do display stickers.

Please be careful about posting such inaccurate information. Our boats are documented, are registered in FL, do have stickers, do not have numbers, are not titled in FL, did pay sales tax in FL.

 

[Comodave]

A vessel cannot be USCG documented and state registered at the same time. If a documented vessel becomes state registered its USCG documentation is automatically invalidated. You will probably have no way of knowing this since the USCG probably will not know of the vessel's state registration and will continue to send its renewal notices. However, when the BAD happens, especially in foreign waters you could be in big trouble.

Agree with Band B. Our boat is registered in Michigan and is documented. We can’t display state registration numbers and the boat isn’t titled in Michigan. This has been true with numerous of our boats.

 

[Nocanvas]

Careful

1) I'd choose a state for residency that doesn't have state income taxes.

Alaska, Florida, Nevada, New Hampshire, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Washington and Wyoming, all have no income taxes. (NOTE: New Hampshire, however, taxes interest and dividends)

2) sales tax on boat. This is dictated by the state that you register the vessel in, in most cases. Consider registering in a state the doesn't charge taxes, or has very low taxes.

Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire, and Oregon

3) annual property tax on what?? Charged by whom??

4) Boats are registered where the boat lives, not where you live. I have owned boats registered is several different states over the years. I've never owned a boat registered in the state of my legal residence.

Your best bet is to document the vessel, which has the USCG (Federal) issuing your title). You may need to register the vessel in more than one state depending on the requirements of each state and how long the boat is kept there. If you never keep your vessel in one state longer than that state requires, then you could never have to register the vessel.

Some states require a vessel to have valid registration in another state to be exempt .
Is it Delaware that has no registration requirements thus allowing the free pass ?

 

[Porgy]

Some states require a vessel to have valid registration in another state to be exempt .
Is it Delaware that has no registration requirements thus allowing the free pass ?

In Delaware if the boat is documented, registration is not required.

 

[psneeld]

A vessel cannot be USCG documented and state registered at the same time. If a documented vessel becomes state registered its USCG documentation is automatically invalidated. You will probably have no way of knowing this since the USCG probably will not know of the vessel's state registration and will continue to send its renewal notices. However, when the BAD happens, especially in foreign waters you could be in big trouble.

You continuously post incorrect or limited information on this despite the links provided every time.

If its only true where you live....remember we all mostly do not live there...

This from the BoatUS web site...

"Can a boat be both titled and documented?
No. A documented vessel may not be titled by a state. However, some states may require documented vessels to maintain their state-level registration. Regardless of registration status, all vessel owners must comply with state laws and pay applicable state taxes."

This about deletion from documentation from the USCG documentation web site...

"DELETION FROM DOCUMENTATION
A vessel may be deleted from documentation upon the request of the vessel owner or an
authorized agent on behalf of the owner. The request must be in writing and must include
the vessel’s official number and reason for deletion. The original Certificate of
Documentation (COD) is to be returned by the owner named on the certificate.
1. Please provide evidence of sale or transfer AND a statement indicating the
nationality of owner and/or country in which vessel will be flagged (in the event
the vessel is being sold to a non-US citizen(s) or being flagged in a foreign country).
Evidence of sale is required in the event vessel is sold foreign as per 46 CFR
67.171(c)(1).
2. A Certificate of Documentation (COD) is invalid and the vessel subject to deletion
from the roll of actively documented vessels when any of the situations listed in 46
CFR 67.171 occurs.
3. An original OR a copy of a release instrument signed by the mortgage holder
(mortgagee) is required before the vessel can be removed from documentation if
the vessel is covered by an outstanding mortgage of record.
4. Vessels of five net tons or more (determined by volume) used in fishing activities
on the navigable waters of the U.S. or in the Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ), or
used in the coastwise trade must be documented unless the vessel is exempt from
documentation. See 46 CFR 67.9 for a list of exemptions.
5. If a letter evidencing removal from documentation is required, include that
information in the letter request with fee of $15.
6. If the request for deletion is accompanied by a complete, original or copy of a bill
of sale and $8 per page filing fee, it may be recorded to evidence transfer of
ownership. "

 

[Hippocampus]

Think there’s some basic confusion by some. My understanding is:
Documentation or state title shows proof of ownership.
Documentation or state registration identifies the vessel.

Taxes are a independent activity. Some states allow registration paying a fee but no taxes.other require taxes. Some have sales tax. Some have use fees. Some have property tax. Some have combinations of all of these. Your legal address effects how you are taxed in certain states. Now a days you can’t get away without having a legal address even if you’re in constant motion. St Brendan’s is a mail service. What address you use fo mail may or may not effect what your legal address is. Generally it just serves to show where you get your mail. Similarly we save receipts to show where and when we’ve been. This is helpful in dealing with places like Florida or dealing with practique.

For practique being documented is much preferred by most C&I agents. I’ve been told it’s possible to be granted practique with state title and registration but difficult at times. Been told some countries will only accept documentation.

Think most people pick a no sales tax, no use fee state like R.I. to use when buying a boat. Pick legal address on basis of their personal tax exposure. Document their boat if they ever have intentions of international travel but state registrate their dinghy. Don’t put T/T on your dinghy. Tells when you’re not on it. Increases risk of boat beak ins.

My 2 cents.

 

[kthoennes]

This is a well-worn topic I know, but I think ProMaritime posted that same, completely wrong information in a previous thread. Now as for state titling -- Scott is right of course, a federally documented boat shouldn't be state titled, but in a lot of midwestern states that aren't familiar with federal CG documentation, good luck trying to buy, sell, or state register a boat without a state title. I'm documented and I have a state title. Completely improper and conflicts with the federal regs I know, but you're in for a huge bureaucratic ordeal on the state or county level and at the bank or credit union -- and even the insurance company -- if you don't have one.

I have to laugh, when I went to register our boat at the county window I showed the clerk the CG documentation certificate. The clerk looked at me and said, "Wow, that's very interesting. Are you in the Navy? Now where's the title with the bill of sale filled out?"

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

A vessel cannot be USCG documented and state registered at the same time. If a documented vessel becomes state registered its USCG documentation is automatically invalidated. You will probably have no way of knowing this since the USCG probably will not know of the vessel's state registration and will continue to send its renewal notices. However, when the BAD happens, especially in foreign waters you could be in big trouble.

Can you please provide a law or regulation stating so.

 

[twistedtree]

In Delaware if the boat is documented, registration is not required.

Also true at least in MA, VT, and CA. In those states, your documentation fulfills the state registration requirements.

The only fly in the ointment is whether other states will recognize such boats as validly registered in another state. I have heard second hand that MI might not. I know first hand that WA does.

 

[MYTraveler]

The only fly in the ointment is whether other states will recognize such boats as validly registered in another state. I have heard second hand that MI might not. I know first hand that WA does.

I believe the constitutionally established and protected right to travel comes into play. As a result, for example, states may not condition a car's entry to the state on registration within that state (but they can require state registration after a constitutionally permissible period of stay). I can't imagine any basis on which travel by boat could be treated differently.

 

[BandB]

I believe the constitutionally established and protected right to travel comes into play. As a result, for example, states may not condition a car's entry to the state on registration within that state (but they can require state registration after a constitutionally permissible period of stay). I can't imagine any basis on which travel by boat could be treated differently.

This one is actually a bit trickier. States typically require registration of all autos or boats. On boats, they typically say you are exempt for up to 60 or 90 days, if you're registered in another state.

The issue is if your "other state" doesn't require registration. There then they are mixed and subject to interpretation as to whether you're exempt. There is no comparable on autos as no states that don't require registration. Twisted has learned the hard truth in Washington, that they only exempt if registered. I'm aware of one case in Georgia but not aware of the outcome there. States with no registration are creating issues, from miniscule to medium level, for boaters who then boat in other states.

 

[MYTraveler]

This one is actually a bit trickier. States typically require registration of all autos or boats. On boats, they typically say you are exempt for up to 60 or 90 days, if you're registered in another state.

The issue is if your "other state" doesn't require registration. There then they are mixed and subject to interpretation as to whether you're exempt. There is no comparable on autos as no states that don't require registration. Twisted has learned the hard truth in Washington, that they only exempt if registered. I'm aware of one case in Georgia but not aware of the outcome there. States with no registration are creating issues, from miniscule to medium level, for boaters who then boat in other states.

States cannot require that all cars within their borders be registered, just those that either are not registered elsewhere (this is where equal protection comes into play) and that stay beyond perhaps 60 days. I doubt that there are any states that don't require cars to be registered, and frankly was not aware that there were any states that don't require boats to be registered (unless federally documented, as is the case in CA). From a constitutional perspective, I suspect constitutional protections would ultimately (ie, after federal court review) prevent any requirement that a boat entering another state by water be registered in another state, at least not if there is other evidence that the boat was legally present in another state (even the adjacent state). It would be interesting to research the case law on this.

 

[BandB]

States cannot require that all cars within their borders be registered, just those that either are not registered elsewhere (this is where equal protection comes into play) and that stay beyond perhaps 60 days. I doubt that there are any states that don't require cars to be registered, and frankly was not aware that there were any states that don't require boats to be registered (unless federally documented, as is the case in CA). From a constitutional perspective, I suspect constitutional protections would ultimately (ie, after federal court review) prevent any requirement that a boat entering another state by water be registered in another state, at least not if there is other evidence that the boat was legally present in another state (even the adjacent state). It would be interesting to research the case law on this.

Did you read my post you responded to. I made it clear "There is no comparable on autos as no states that don't require registration." The issue is on boats, states that don't require registration of documented boats.

I'm amazed at all the constitutional lawyers here who think there are voluminous constitutional protections against things that are in no way protected by the constitution. States have laws all the time in conflict with neighboring states. Years ago a lot of people from NC found out when they drove their cars with radar detectors into Virginia where it was illegal to have one connected. When stopped, they unwired it on the spot to avoid arrest.

Article IV is about relationships between the states and the main thing it says in that regard is states must extradite criminals back to the state of the crime.

The only real restriction on states in the Amendments is on voting and the rights of the freed slaves.

If a state wants to, they can require you to pay a tax to enter. In fact, many do so, in the form of tolls on roads. Small use tax, but it's just that.

 

[psneeld]

Not sure about being unregistered car being protected for any period of time.

Try driving through the state without plates or a plate without a current decal on it. You might get lucky but doesn't mean it is not illegal.

Does any state allow an unregistered car on their own roads? I don't think so,, therefore you are not protected in other states either if no registration displayed.

The protection only is valid if you are in compliance with your home state....similar to licensing and boat regs too I believe.. but Florida doesn't seem to care about protection/reciprocity if not registered in home state....as I have heard Michigan also....this is from their FWC site.... "Documented vessels without a state registration in full force and effect must also obtain a Florida registration and display the validation decal on the port side of the vessel when using Florida waters."

 

[twistedtree]

This one is actually a bit trickier. States typically require registration of all autos or boats. On boats, they typically say you are exempt for up to 60 or 90 days, if you're registered in another state.



The issue is if your "other state" doesn't require registration. There then they are mixed and subject to interpretation as to whether you're exempt. There is no comparable on autos as no states that don't require registration. Twisted has learned the hard truth in Washington, that they only exempt if registered. I'm aware of one case in Georgia but not aware of the outcome there. States with no registration are creating issues, from miniscule to medium level, for boaters who then boat in other states.

I agree that the distinction is whether a boat coming from a state that doesn’t require separate state reg of documented vessels is

A) properly registered according to the laws of that state, which is definitely is. Or

B) not registered in another state because there is no specific state-issued paperwork, which there isn’t, and is refused by the states.

This is playing arm chair lawyer, but it seems the spirit of reciprocity is based on compliance with your home laws, and accepting that as compliance with local laws, at least for a period of time. I don’t think one state can dictate what compliance looks like in another state, and in particular whether the home state issues a certificate for compliant boats, or not.

WA wasn’t a problem. They recognized my bot as properly registered according to MA law, even though there is no corresponding MA certificate - only the MA law.

 

[kthoennes]

Uh oh. These threads seem to often go off into the weeds about constitutional rights to travel, etc. Kind of like the boarding threads. Starts to smell very "sovereign citizen." And I don't mean to go off into a COVID detour either, but how did that "constitutional right to travel" work out when Rhode Island for example set up the road blocks for out-of-state plates? I think that ship has sailed -- since we're on a boating forum. Me, I'd rather deal with practical and legal realities and not go all Patrick Henry (until it's necessary and worth it).

 

[MYTraveler]

If a state wants to, they can require you to pay a tax to enter. In fact, many do so, in the form of tolls on roads. Small use tax, but it's just that.

It isn't Article IV and states cannot do as you suggest. I would be curious to see any authority on that.

 

[Hippocampus]

Have been boarded by LEOs where this has come up. Was “vessel in transit” not permanently or semi permanently slipped or moored. Was underway. In that condition was told none of this applies. Similarly my understanding is the same for a “vessel in distress”. Once got a knock on the hull while anchored. I came up and told LEO I was sleeping and unsafe to operate my vessel until I got some decent sleep. He said ok didn’t board and just left. . Believe the gist of this is codified internationally not just state to state. My further understanding is if urgent maintenance is required to maintain the safety of the vessel you’re off the hook as well. They don’t want you to avoid a landfall that’s required to keep you safe. Be it maintenance or sleep or whatever.
Of interest you can be interdicted, restrained and fined by violating local laws. Most recent widely publicized occurrence was BVI arresting boats who even transiently crossed into the fringes of their national waters. They closed thei waters due to Covid. Heard some say another motivation was income.

Think MA, Conn, NY, Georgia and others have shot themselves in the foot. They would get more tax income from income tax, real estate and other land based taxes from the folks working in the yards/marinas and related businesses then from boat sales tax and use fees. Florida is getting that way as well.

 

[BandB]

It isn't Article IV and states cannot do as you suggest. I would be curious to see any authority on that.

The states can and they do. They don't need authority. They have it.

 

[Comodave]

We used to belong to AGLCA, the Loopers organization. It was a hot topic several years ago the boats traveling through Michigan water that were not registered were being stopped and ticketed. Don’t know what the outcome was.

 

[twistedtree]

Uh oh. These threads seem to often go off into the weeds about constitutional rights to travel, etc. Kind of like the boarding threads. Starts to smell very "sovereign citizen." And I don't mean to go off into a COVID detour either, but how did that "constitutional right to travel" work out when Rhode Island for example set up the road blocks for out-of-state plates? I think that ship has sailed -- since we're on a boating forum. Me, I'd rather deal with practical and legal realities and not go all Patrick Henry (until it's necessary and worth it).

That nonsense in early Covid days lasted about two seconds for the very reason that it’s unconstitutional. Decided by the Supreme Court in the 70s, as I recall. I looked it up at the time.

 

[twistedtree]

We used to belong to AGLCA, the Loopers organization. It was a hot topic several years ago the boats traveling through Michigan water that were not registered were being stopped and ticketed. Don’t know what the outcome was.

That’s the practical reality, and why being an arm chair lawyer is just that. Unless you want to spend the rest of your retirement creating new case law, you need to suck it up. The reality is that lots of practices are illegal, but in the absence of challenge, either in the form of enforcement or legal challenges, they will remain. The NY and VT laws requiring modification to your boat to comply with discharge rules on a federal waterway is another example. But it will stand until someone challenges it and get it ruled illegal.

 

[psneeld]

That nonsense in early Covid days lasted about two seconds for the very reason that it’s unconstitutional. Decided by the Supreme Court in the 70s, as I recall. I looked it up at the time.

True....Florida flagged vehicles for months...they couldn't prevent entry, but did demand quarantine with restrictions and info to enforce. I believe NY did something similar...if you checked into an RV place, they had to provide info to the officials to come and direct quarantine.

I know the Florida operation was true, the NY one I just heard 3rd hand.

 

[bowball]

Also true at least in MA, VT, and CA. In those states, your documentation fulfills the state registration requirements.

The only fly in the ointment is whether other states will recognize such boats as validly registered in another state. I have heard second hand that MI might not. I know first hand that WA does.

Twisted, can you elaborate on WA? If you are documented, but not state registered anywhere, and transiting through under the states minimum days that create a taxable event, are you saying that WA doesn’t care? Your first hand experience?

 

[twistedtree]

Twisted, can you elaborate on WA? If you are documented, but not state registered anywhere, and transiting through under the states minimum days that create a taxable event, are you saying that WA doesn’t care? Your first hand experience?

What I'm saying is that at least in my case, WA accepted my boat as registered in my state of residency which at the time was MA. MA was the address on the documentation certificate, it was my home address and state of residency. MA does not issue separate state registrations on documented vessels, but instead recognizes the USCG documentation. I also had my dinghy registered in MA, with bow numbers, etc. Collectively it created a strong nexus with MA, and WA accepted that.



On a separate, but related note, the boat had never been in MA, so never triggered MA use tax. That's what triggers the tax in MA.

 

[twistedtree]

What I'm saying is that at least in my case, WA accepted my boat as registered in my state of residency which at the time was MA. MA was the address on the documentation certificate, it was my home address and state of residency. MA does not issue separate state registrations on documented vessels, but instead recognizes the USCG documentation. I also had my dinghy registered in MA, with bow numbers, etc. Collectively it created a strong nexus with MA, and WA accepted that.



On a separate, but related note, the boat had never been in MA, so never triggered MA use tax. That's what triggers the tax in MA.

BTW, all this meant that I was classified as a non-resident vessel visiting WA. I still had to comply with the WA visitor limitations, which I did with great care.

 

[bowball]

What I'm saying is that at least in my case, WA accepted my boat as registered in my state of residency which at the time was MA. MA was the address on the documentation certificate, it was my home address and state of residency. MA does not issue separate state registrations on documented vessels, but instead recognizes the USCG documentation. I also had my dinghy registered in MA, with bow numbers, etc. Collectively it created a strong nexus with MA, and WA accepted that.



On a separate, but related note, the boat had never been in MA, so never triggered MA use tax. That's what triggers the tax in MA.

My state allows for but doesn’t require state registration, if like you did with MA, you stay out of the state, which I have. I do visit (a week) WA, so my question is whether WA checked out your MA registration rules? (My states website is confusing).

Or they just accepted you weren’t in WA long enough to trigger the use tax, and didn’t care beyond that?

What was the rumor for MI?

I could register in my state, along with such documentation , but I didn’t think it necessary. Maybe it will to discourage other states even though I should be just transiting through them.

 

[twistedtree]

My state allows for but doesn’t require state registration, if like you did with MA, you stay out of the state, which I have. I do visit (a week) WA, so my question is whether WA checked out your MA registration rules? (My states website is confusing).

Or they just accepted you weren’t in WA long enough to trigger the use tax, and didn’t care beyond that?

What was the rumor for MI?

I could register in my state, along with such documentation , but I didn’t think it necessary. Maybe it will to discourage other states even though I should be just transiting through them.

On I think my third year of spending time in WA and filing repair affidavits along the way, they "invited" me to pay state tax, or show that I had paid elsewhere. As part of responding to that I explained the state registration aspect of all this, and they did not take issue with it. All that really mattered was that I was not a WA resident and that the boat was "registered" somewhere else. They accepted that.


BTW, their "invitation" was because they were reading my blog and from that concluded we were in WA longer than allowed. But we had not, so they went away.


My advice for WA is to keep very careful track of days spend in WA, and don't exceed the initial 60 days allowed. When you go beyond that and use the visitor permits and/or repair affidavits, you need to be very careful, especially regarding the relationship between among them and the initial 60 days that are allowed. By far the simplest and safest approach is to not stay more than 60 days. That's why so many people keep their boats in BC.

 

[BandB]

On I think my third year of spending time in WA and filing repair affidavits along the way, they "invited" me to pay state tax, or show that I had paid elsewhere. As part of responding to that I explained the state registration aspect of all this, and they did not take issue with it. All that really mattered was that I was not a WA resident and that the boat was "registered" somewhere else. They accepted that.


BTW, their "invitation" was because they were reading my blog and from that concluded we were in WA longer than allowed. But we had not, so they went away.


My advice for WA is to keep very careful track of days spend in WA, and don't exceed the initial 60 days allowed. When you go beyond that and use the visitor permits and/or repair affidavits, you need to be very careful, especially regarding the relationship between among them and the initial 60 days that are allowed. By far the simplest and safest approach is to not stay more than 60 days. That's why so many people keep their boats in BC.

Keep in mind too that the 60 days applies regardless of registration. We had to be very careful when we purchased in Washington but registered in Florida. As to the non resident permit, it must be applied for within the 60 days and then it only allows up to 6 months out of 12 months so then another set of calendar watching.

As twisted said, keep very detailed records you can prove. With one boat we were in Washington 49 days, gone for 31, back in for 2, gone for 17, in for 50, gone for 15, in for 8, gone. So 109 total days but never longer than 50.