which stabilizers for us?

[psneeld]

I found ABT to be pretty inept in sales process but peerless in engineering excellence and follow on support. just depends on which characteristics are most important to you.

Niad and Wesmar have pretty good reps in those departments as well...have you heard or experienced differentlt?

 

[ksanders]

Niad and Wesmar have pretty good reps in those departments as well...have you heard or experienced differentlt?

Actually I've tried to find customers that were not satisfied, just to see what the issues are.

I have not been able to find any customers that are not 100% happy with any brand of stabilizer, except for some issues with the air driven brand.

Thats a good sign

 

[Delfin]

Niad and Wesmar have pretty good reps in those departments as well...have you heard or experienced differentlt?

Well, yes I have, but I was only referring to my personal experience, and preference for product quality and support over initial sales experience. At the time, and I still think it is true, I rejected Wesmar on the basis that the actuator was taller and appeared less robustly built than the ABT actuator. Compactness is a virtue when you are trying to shoehorn the unit into available space. Additionally, people were complaining that using the VHF when the units were on caused the fins to make sudden and radical movement. I presume this problem has been fixed since it posed a safety threat. Regarding Naiad, Google "problems with Naiads" and you can answer your own question, although here is a quote that probably sums it up:

"Naiads fell out of favor with Nordhavn and were no longer offered by
the mfg on most models from about 2004 and on. Since the move to Trac
systems and a general upsizing of components, quite a number of boats
have made Atlantic and Pacific crossings without stabilizer issues."

 

[Bendit]

I really like the look, and specs,of the Side-Power system,
Side-Power bow & stern thrusters - Stabilizer Systems

 

[Marin]

So out of curiosity, are you interested in the roll only or the roll, pitch, and yaw capabilities? Does the same fin/actuator unit do it all and the difference is in the information that is sent to the actuator, or are they two different fin/actuator units altogether?

 

[markpierce]

Ships' stabilizers (wing-like appendages sticking out from the hull) affect roll only.

 

[ksanders]

So out of curiosity, are you interested in the roll only or the roll, pitch, and yaw capabilities? Does the same fin/actuator unit do it all and the difference is in the information that is sent to the actuator, or are they two different fin/actuator units altogether?

The roll only computer only senses roll. It only has one sensor in it.

The other controller has 3 sensors in it.

The roll only computer samples 1000 times a second.
The 3 axis computer samples 4800 times a second.

Both computers work with the same fins, quantity 2.

The upcharge for the "better" computer is $7500.

I've had my boat in following seas that I will never take my wife out in. Big seas. 10'+ swells as measure by a NOAA bouy, wind waves on top of that of 4'.

My boat does not have a broaching issue, so yaw is not important to me.
Pitching cannot be controlled. Theoretically if the fins are exactly center of the pitch pivot point, fins will have zero effect on pitching.

So, I'm probably not inclined to buy the upgraded computer.

I have a quote back from Wesmar for the standard computer with 4.5SQFT fins at 27K. 29K with the larger 6 sqft fins.

I have direct knowledge from a boat yard that installed this same system on my exact model boat indicating that 4.5 sqft is perfect. I talked to the installer today and he said the effect was amazing. Turn the fins on and the boat stops rolling...completely.

 

[Scary]

This sounds good

This the cost of components only right? Will the installer do the work locally?

 

[ksanders]

This the cost of components only right? Will the installer do the work locally?

Steve

Thats the component price.

I'm seriously considering hiring out the fiberglass work and doing the rest of the install myself.

 

[Scary]

Why not

Steve

Thats the component price.

I'm seriously considering hiring out the fiberglass work and doing the rest of the install myself.

That seems like a good price for the components. You certainly could do the installation, mine system looks pretty straight forward. Installing the fins might be a bigger project however. When mine were resealed I asked if it was simple enough for me to take on and was told they were pretty heavy and not something you would want to do yourself. Mine are 6' Naids. Which by the way have worked flawlessly. The machinery looks like a fairly simple set up. Maybe have some of it done. Mine automatically center for backing which is something to ask about. They also have surprisingly amount of tow in. There may set up secrets for vessel type and speeds.

 

[ben2go]

What do flat bottom boats do for stabilization?My boat want have a full keel.It will have strakes along the bottom and very little fore and aft rocker.It will have a V entry bow,but that is in the front 1/4 of the hull.Paravanes(which I don't want) are used and steadying sails(which I am not familiar with) are a possibility.Stabilizers are out of course.

 

[markpierce]

Wonder how stabilizer fins deal with lobster/crab pots and lines as well as going aground.

 

[Larmex99]

My Wesmars have a knife edge cutter along the top of the fin with a hook on top that will cut anything short of wire rope. I bought the boat with the stabilizers installed, so have no idea of it is part of the unit as supplied by the manufacturer. As for going aground........I have not tried that yet. It probaby wouldn't be fun with or without fins

 

[psneeld]

The roll only computer only senses roll. It only has one sensor in it.

The other controller has 3 sensors in it.

.....snip....

I have direct knowledge from a boat yard that installed this same system on my exact model boat indicating that 4.5 sqft is perfect. I talked to the installer today and he said the effect was amazing. Turn the fins on and the boat stops rolling...completely.

I would make sure I asked what speed the "other" boat usually cruised at. If the guy never slow cruised...maybe those smaller fins were perfect. If he was willing to speed up to get out of the seas and pay the fuel costs (offset by the fact he spent less on fins...maybe a good idea...).

Just make sure you are comparing apples to apples when using another skippers boating habits.

If you did ask, sorry if I insulted you intelligence...I just know how untruthful some boaters are when it comes to performance issues....especially if they made a bad choice and it cost a ton of money..

 

[ksanders]

If you did ask, sorry if I insulted you intelligence...I just know how untruthful some boaters are when it comes to performance issues....especially if they made a bad choice and it cost a ton of money..

No, boat owners never tell untruths, or convince themselves that their expensive mod, was just the ticket.

Thats too funny, Thanks!

 

[psneeld]

No, boat owners never tell untruths, or convince themselves that their expensive mod, was just the ticket.

Thats too funny, Thanks!

It took MANY years of boating/USCG/marine business to spot the untruth tellers....now it scares me how many are out there!!!

 

[Larmex99]

My speed on a trip fron San Diego to PV averaged 8.7 kts over 1300 mi. Fuel burn was .97 GPM, which is pretty fair for a 27 ton vessel with fins. These are truthful figures. Not all boaters misunderestimate their performance.

 

[FF]

If you are going to install Hyd hoses , when you have them made be SURE to specify swivel ends on both ends.

Otherwise you may be turning 30 ft of hose to tighten a fitting.

Solid end is not bad on the initial install, but replacing a component becomes a real chore without swivels..

 

[Delfin]

My speed on a trip fron San Diego to PV averaged 8.7 kts over 1300 mi. Fuel burn was .97 GPM, which is pretty fair for a 27 ton vessel with fins. These are truthful figures. Not all boaters misunderestimate their performance.

I'm curious if you have any sense of whether parasitic drag of the fins is offset in terms of fuel economy by keeping the hull more upright and slippery through the water when they are on.

 

[Larmex99]

I can only guess based on a short period when my fins had to be pinned to straight while I repaired a bolt housing on the arm actuator. I noticed that my fuel use increased 5-10% without the fins being active. Interesting to note as well that the inactive fins still helped to prevent roll although less than when they were active. A friend once told me that once you have stabilizers you will never want a boat without them. He was correct.

 

[Delfin]

I can only guess based on a short period when my fins had to be pinned to straight while I repaired a bolt housing on the arm actuator. I noticed that my fuel use increased 5-10% without the fins being active. Interesting to note as well that the inactive fins still helped to prevent roll although less than when they were active. A friend once told me that once you have stabilizers you will never want a boat without them. He was correct.

Thanks for the response. My fuel flow meter is analog, so it is hard for me to detect small changes, but your experience confirms what I suspected was the case. Makes sense I suppose, since trawler hulls are generally not designed to be efficient with heel angle induced like sailboat hulls are. Robert Beebe thought that some form of stabilization was essential for any vessel that navigates in blue water. Many boats that are called trawlers are not designed/intended/used for that duty, so probably don't need them, but for ocean work I have to agree with Mr. Beebe. Plus it's nice to arrive at your destination relaxed rather than having felt like you just went through the spin cycle at the laundromat.

 

[Aquabelle]

NAIAD maintain that, except in dead calm conditions, active fin stabilizers actually INCREASE speed through water somewhat. They say stabilizers reduce the wetted surface area of the hull relative to what it would be if rolling and that around a 0.5kt gain is not unusual. In dead flat conditions, a 0.5kt penalty.

 

[stevensibs]

Mark, I was told by a Bristol trawler in CT that a stay sail kept him from rolling too much. I have the same mast and boom he has but no sail. Should I just call t he local rigger and say fix me up with everything, and is it really worth it?
Steve

 

[THD]

Just to add our 2 cents-we have the ABT Trac, 9.5 sqft on a 58', 50 ton boat. They are are great, and as noted, once you have them, you will not want to go without. Very reliable, ABT has the ability to work when the boat is at rest, but we did not see the need to upgrade our system. One note on our installation compared to the Bayliner, we have twin keels, one for each shaft, so we can sit on the bottom without worying about damage to the fins. They do not extend beyond the waterline beam so no real damage issues there. With Mitsubishi not having any similar installations, and the fins, from any vendor, having a long solid history in your hull, I would be a bit leery over the gyro. I would have to be really convinced of a substantial performance difference over active fins to consider the gyro.

 

[long-cours.62]

For your choice

I thinking your idea of gyro it is a good choice because :
-you can't put a mast on your boat : no sails , no paravanes
- the Naïads always make a bigger drag and more consumption
- the gyro could work at anchor
- the gyro can't be hit by something , drag a net or rope
We have a hull with hard chine we have a great stability curve...and we roll with a very short period
Last year we added two "bilges" keels around 14' long and 10" wide, a 8m mast with
18 sqm main sail full battens ...it dampen , a litle the roll .(and we have already two sideboards !!)
On Setsail they show some films taken in bad weather and the ride looks good with over sized Naïad ....but unfortunately also over sized for my bank account
But gyro look good, if you can get 'background'.
On one boat we had Naïads it work well, but with all problems listed above : drag,consomption, possible 'trap' for roppe ,,net even bottom of a river side ...
If you choose Gyro please let know to us what happen , you are like a 'cobaye'
(side boards)
Dérives - Le blog de long-cours
(mast)
Mâture - Le blog de long-cours

 

[greatpapabear]

I'm coming in at the end of this long thread, so these points may well have already been made.

Fins are availble for at rest or anchored conditions, such as Tracs.

Gyros are becoming more and more popular in the UK.

If thinking about locating a gyro in the lazarette, my concerns would be twofold. The first would be the twisting moment on the hull when in operation, and the second would be if the lazarette is the best position for the gyro. I've only ever seen them in apprx mid-ships positions.

That's my two cents-worth!

Cheers - Piers

 

[Marin]

Mark, I was told by a Bristol trawler in CT that a stay sail kept him from rolling too much. I have the same mast and boom he has but no sail. Should I just call t he local rigger and say fix me up with everything, and is it really worth it?
Steve

I have talked to a number of GB owners who have steady sails. They say they do a good job on a mooring or at anchor of keeping the boat headed into the wind and so usually the waves which reduces rolling.

But almost all of them say a steady sail of the size that can be carried on a GB's stock mast and boom is too small to to much of anything in the way of damping roll underway. And since the mast and stays are not made to take high sideloads, using the sail in stronger winds can, and has, resulted in the mast breaking (wood) or bending (aluminum) or breaking the stay securing hardware.

We considered the idea of adding a steady sail to our boat at one time, not because we find rolling a problem or even all that uncomfortable but just because it sounded like an interesting idea. But after talking to owners who have them we decided against it. On a mooring or at anchor in windy weather if the boat hunts enough to induce a rolling motion on top of the pitching motion we put out a stern anchor which I think does a better job than a steady sail anyway. And with the sail area that we would carry damping a roll underway would be almost unnoticeable and we could easily over-stress our mast and stays.

 

[long-cours.62]

You are right for

I have talked to a number of GB owners who have steady sails. They say they do a good job on a mooring or at anchor of keeping the boat headed into the wind and so usually the waves which reduces rolling.

But almost all of them say a steady sail of the size that can be carried on a GB's stock mast and boom is too small to to much of anything in the way of damping roll underway. And since the mast and stays are not made to take high sideloads, using the sail in stronger winds can, and has, resulted in the mast breaking (wood) or bending (aluminum) or breaking the stay securing hardware.

We considered the idea of adding a steady sail to our boat at one time, not because we find rolling a problem or even all that uncomfortable but just because it sounded like an interesting idea. But after talking to owners who have them we decided against it. On a mooring or at anchor in windy weather if the boat hunts enough to induce a rolling motion on top of the pitching motion we put out a stern anchor which I think does a better job than a steady sail anyway. And with the sail area that we would carry damping a roll underway would be almost unnoticeable and we could easily over-stress our mast and stays.

the size of the mast ! all the fitting must be strong enough (or stronger than necessary ) pilar, chain plate, section of the mast, diameter of the rigging and also the sail must be in heavy clooth , because our boat are heavy and generally we use sail in bad weather .
Also the sail must have some reefing system .
I have colleague owner of GB and also they say : the main problem is the roll (GB50 GB42 GB48 ) and they all fit stab

 

[marcoh]

Have you considered the Seakeeper gyro? They have numerous examples on their website and only use about 2kW of power, thus much more efficient than the Mitsubishi

Seakeeper Website

The installation seems pretty compact too as per this Grand Banks example

http://www.seakeeper.com/images/installs/grandbanks2.jpg

 

[South of Heaven]

OLD THREAD BUMP***

Kevin: Sorry for resurrecting this but what did you finally go with and are you still happy? The 4788 is on my shortlist for my next possible boat (I'm actually viewing one today!). I don't think any of the Yachtworld 4788's are stabilized.