Stabilizers: A Must for Passage-Making?

[lkevinadkins]

Hello, we're new to the group, sorry for a greenhorn question.

We are considering purchase of a 1985 DeFever 44 Offshore, but is has no stabilizers. It's our first large (to us) boat. We will be living aboard full-time, cruising open ocean a lot of the time, and several people have shared they would NEVER buy an ocean-going boat without stabilizers. While this boat can withstand WAY worse weather than we can, we (and especially the Admiral) don't want an overly roly-poly ride in even mild weather. We've heard from other DeFever owners that without stabilizers this boat will roll 40+ degrees in 5-8ft seas, still perfectly safe but no one will be keeping their lunch down. Adding stabilizers would be roughly $70K extra cost.

Are we just putting too much emphasis on the rough ride, or do others feel it's important to have stabilizers?

Thanks in advance for sharing!
Kevin & Kellie

 

[boatnbump]

I am on my second boat with stabilizers. No way would I ever own another boat without them. They are amazing especially when crossing. I have crossed from Florida to Isla Mujeres several times In some pretty bad seas. I never secure anything everything is where it was when we get there. Your not all beat up when you get there.
I remember the old days without them the whole boat would be trashed inside.

 

[2savage]

$70k? I added a passive paravane system for about $5k. Works well and reduces roll to about 10 degrees in beam seas.

Granted I designed and installed the system myself, which must have saved mucho dineros but it can be done by anyone.

 

[tiltrider1]

Bad seas are nothing new to me. I can handle it when few others can. However, there is a world of difference between a stabilized boat and one that is not. No stabilizers is just hard uncomfortable work. A stabilized boat is much more enjoyable and much less exhausting.

I wouldn’t buy an ocean going yacht without stabilizers. In fact, Even in our protected PNW, I cruise with the stabilizers on. With stabilizers I can leave a can of coke sitting on the dinette table, with out stabilizers that can will be tossed to the floor by the first large boat that passes me.

 

[ddw36]

I'm a fan of bilge keels, and suggest you look into installing them. They may not reduce roll as effectively as stabilizers, but their cost is minimal and I think would be very effective.

 

[Simi 60]

$70k? I added a passive paravane system for about $5k. Works well and reduces roll to about 10 degrees in beam seas.

Granted I designed and installed the system myself, which must have saved mucho dineros but it can be done by anyone.

Details and pictures please

 

[Simi 60]

. We will be living aboard full-time, cruising open ocean a lot of the time, and several people have shared they would NEVER buy an ocean-going boat without stabilizers.

We live aboard full time and when doing real miles it's offshore.
We have no stabilisers
Would I like stabilisers? Yes
Do I need them? No

If you are retired and living aboard you have time to pick suitable passage windows

 

[mvweebles]

Hello, we're new to the group, sorry for a greenhorn question.



We are considering purchase of a 1985 DeFever 44 Offshore, but is has no stabilizers. It's our first large (to us) boat. We will be living aboard full-time, cruising open ocean a lot of the time, and several people have shared they would NEVER buy an ocean-going boat without stabilizers. While this boat can withstand WAY worse weather than we can, we (and especially the Admiral) don't want an overly roly-poly ride in even mild weather. We've heard from other DeFever owners that without stabilizers this boat will roll 40+ degrees in 5-8ft seas, still perfectly safe but no one will be keeping their lunch down. Adding stabilizers would be roughly $70K extra cost.



Are we just putting too much emphasis on the rough ride, or do others feel it's important to have stabilizers?



Thanks in advance for sharing!

Kevin & Kellie

All passagemaking boats benefit from stabilizers. In my opinion, the Defever 44 needs them more than most. I would not cruise this boat without stabilizers. Not even the Loop. $70k sounds about right. Make sure you go up a size - the DF44 is really a large 44 footer.

Other than that, I really, really like the DF44.

Peter

PS - according to David Kasten, stabilizers for not make a vessel more seaworthy, just more comfortable.

 

[Hippocampus]

Or if one is to believe the Canadian government fish make it more dangerous. Think list is fins, gyros, Magnus or sails and a bulb fin keel or more than one hull.

 

[ofer]

We live aboard full time and when doing real miles it's offshore.
We have no stabilisers
Would I like stabilisers? Yes
Do I need them? No

If you are retired and living aboard you have time to pick suitable passage windows

did you ever consider bilge keels or rolling chocks on your timber vessel?

did you see any passive type stabilizers on a timber vessel.

 

[cardude01]

If they could be installed on this boat I’d rather have paravanes than active fins. Simple and much cheaper. But harder to deploy obviously.

If cruising lots of open ocean I’d definitely stabilize the boat. My boat is semi-stabilized with the sail plan and it makes a huge difference in comfort.

 

[Simi 60]

did you ever consider bilge keels or rolling chocks on your timber vessel?
.

At $30,000 plus, no
Plus continual drag - extra fuel burn even when not needed. No

did you see any passive type stabilizers on a timber vessel

Sure, but all cost $30k upwards to do right if paying for somone to do it
Finding someone to do it is a whole other drama.

Instead we burn extra fuel when and if needed.
Increasing speed helps
Changing course helps
$30,000 buys a lot of extra miles and or RPM.

 

[Arjan]

I have a DeFever 44 that I bought a year and a half ago, I added stabilizers from Gyro Gale last spring and that ran around 50k.

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[bowball]

All passagemaking boats benefit from stabilizers. In my opinion, the Defever 44 needs them more than most. I would not cruise this boat without stabilizers. Not even the Loop. $70k sounds about right. Make sure you go up a size - the DF44 is really a large 44 footer.

Other than that, I really, really like the DF44.

Peter

PS - according to David Kasten, stabilizers for not make a vessel more seaworthy, just more comfortable.

Stabilizers have improved over time too. Now of course zero speed. But before that 2 axis to 3 axis etc.

At what age stabilizers would it make a difference to upgrade too?

 

[mvweebles]

At what age stabilizers would it make a difference to upgrade too?

I dont think the lines cross in order to make sense to buy a non-stabilized boat and have new installed. But I'm about to speak out of both sides of my mouth

First, I just replaced the stabilizers on my 1970 Willard 36. No way I'll get much return on the $35k-ish it cost, but I wouldn't have a boat that wasn't stabilized, even though the W36 has decent form stability due to very low center of gravity.

Now the double speak: if I were looking at a used boat, I would not even consider one that wasn't stabilized. I just cannot imagine the effort and expense would pencil out. The DF44 is probably a decent example. Many (most?) are stabilized. I doubt there's more than $20k-$25k difference in pricing between similar used stabilized vs non-stabilized. Some boats including the KK42 have such a predominance of stabilized examples that you can be picky and just rule-out any that aren't stabilized, which is what I'd do.

Apologies un advance to any DF44 owners who's boat is not stabilized. The OP asked an opinion. I've run a couple DF44s and love them, but only if they are stabilized. Great liveaboards. But they do roll.

Peter

 

[Juliet 15]

Weve had 4 boats, crossed an ocean once, this is our first with stabilizers, we will never own a round hull trawler without them. They are sweet. ..

 

[bowball]

My question is different. For an older boat that has two axis stabilizers does it make sense to upgrade to three axis or zero speed. Are the improvements that good?

 

[magna 6882]

We went across the strait of georia with 25 knots and 3ft water. Boat we were following was taking water over the flybridge forcing them inside. the boat stayed nice and steady and ran even smoother once we got into beam seas. I ask my wife if i could take a stabilizer on and off video and she shot me down saying she didnt want to have to pick everything up on the boat. Not saying we wouldn't have made it or had to turn around without the stabs and the boat traveling with us made it just fine they just didn't enjoy the three hour trip in the heavy water.

 

[Larry M]

…this is our first with stabilizers, we will never own a round hull trawler without them. They are sweet. ..

Our Krogen was full displacement (round hull). We never would have done the trip from Alaska to Florida without stabilizers. Going south we had beam seas all the way to Panama and again from Trinidad to Florida. Without them, we would have turned around.

 

[catalinajack]

$70k? I added a passive paravane system for about $5k. Works well and reduces roll to about 10 degrees in beam seas.

Granted I designed and installed the system myself, which must have saved mucho dineros but it can be done by anyone.

Passive stabilizers are for very few and are practical in only open ocean cruising.

 

[rslifkin]

Passive stabilizers are for very few and are practical in only open ocean cruising.

In my mind, it depends as much on the boat as anything else. Some boats are easier to install paravanes on than others. And whether they're suitable for more than passagemaking depends both on how much air draft they add when stowed and how easy they are to deploy and stow (which determines whether they're useful on a 3 hour trip vs a 3 day trip).

 

[markpj23]

Do you want your first big boat experience to be enjoyable or an ordeal when you leave the dock? While many go without stabilizers, most would choose them. Trust me - there will be more than enough opportunity for 'an ordeal' from other factors while cruising, so why not choose crew comfort?

The difference we've seen while turning stabilizers on/off in even light seas has been remarkable. Our older technology NAIADs are still supported with spare parts & service techs. Some maintenance required but well worth the trouble IMHO.
We looked at a 53' Defever with the Gyro Gale system and that looked interesting. Owner raved about it. Had to give up a large locker space for the compressor though. It also needed its own cooling fan in the space.


My vote is for a stabilized version of whichever boat you choose.

 

[sunchaser]

We looked at a 53' Defever with the Gyro Gale system and that looked interesting. Owner raved about it. Had to give up a large locker space for the compressor though. It also needed its own cooling fan in the space.

A few years ago, we were quite interested in an Alaskan 65 with the Gyro gale setup. Our take was the compressor was quite large and with the need for air-to-air 110 volt cooling it added unnecessary heat to the ER. In contrast an equal motive power Vickers hydraulic PTO pump is small and uses seawater for cooling. The additional comparisons between hydraulic vs air power caused us to walk. The current owner does not use the GG setup.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

Interesting topic. Always interesting to see when a convenience becomes a necessity.

"I would never buy a car without cup holders. I didn't have them in the past and constantly spilled my beer. Never again. I don't know how people lived without them."

Now if cup holders were $28,000 (and a $9,000 install), maybe more would go old school and get by without cup holders.

I read an article on the effectiveness of stabilizers (which I now can't find again) that was interesting in that it rated the systems by "real world" usefulness for recreational boats. Probably not something that the sellers of stabilizing systems would agree with. The expensive gyro stabilizers rated slightly better than paravanes, hydraulic fins, bilge keels, etc. All of them were in the 30-40% effective range. Why was that? Because a $35,000 gyro system doesn't work when it is turned off (like when at anchor). If turned on at anchor, it requires running a generator constantly to power the thing and noise/fuel burn/maintenance was figured in to this study's "effectiveness." Upon seeing an approaching cargo ship in calm seas, the generator and gyro can be turned on and will hopefully spin up in time to neutralize the ship's giant wake. If not, that's $35K for nothing. The gyro system can hold the boat rock solid when running, but when figuring in overall cost, not so effective. Same with paravanes. Only work when moving, increase fuel burn, installation and maintenance cost all reduced the overall "effectiveness" of the system. Some would pay any amount for a boat that doesn't bob on the water (causing unsecured items to tip over!), but this article was looking at "bob per buck."

The highest rated stabilizer system? Anti-roll tanks. Granted the actual effect in reducing a roll is way less than a gyro system (when running), but the anti-roll tank is "always on," zero maintenance, and relatively inexpensive to install. The article rated anti-roll tanks at above 70% effectiveness. I can hear the howling protests.

I've been experimenting with an anti-roll system on my boat. I'm into it almost $100 for my system. My wife noticed the difference even when tied up in the marina (we get an occasional wake from ferries). Probably the subject of another post, but something that might be considered by anyone looking at a "necessary" stabilizing system.

 

[Portage_Bay]

I've been experimenting with an anti-roll system on my boat. I'm into it almost $100 for my system. My wife noticed the difference even when tied up in the marina (we get an occasional wake from ferries). Probably the subject of another post, but something that might be considered by anyone looking at a "necessary" stabilizing system.

Please describe what you've done. Placement of the tank, size of the tank, volume of water, internal baffels etc. Have you calculated the effect on the boat's stability with the added weight and location. By stability I mean the ability to return to a righted position when upset as opposedd to roll reduction which is what most stabilizers do.

Also in my limited knoledge of tanks is that the tank has to be 'tuned' to the boat and the anticipated sea state.

 

[garbler]

You’ll gain weight with power stabilizers. Give me full round bilges a beam sea and I lose weight so there are pluses. Nothing wrong with sea legs

Rick

 

[Marco Flamingo]

All has been calculated, plus my "tank" can be tuned. I don't want to highjack a thread, so I'll just say that my "tank" right now is a flexible pillow tank laid out on the flying bridge. It can be stepped on, so it's not really in the way during sea trials. The deformation of the tank as the water shifts within effectively slows the weight transfer (as baffles do in a rigid tank).

The "weight calculation" is like having a big guy (+200 lbs) up on the flying bridge. I am assuming that the original designer took that into consideration as I've never had a problem with four people up there. There are additional ways to adjust timing/effectiveness (water volume, air entrapment, kinetic viscosity from additives) that I am working with.

Vinyl coated polyester ($54), threaded fitting ($12), 25 gallons of water (free) to make a 9 x 2.5' tank. Not much to look at and zero installation cost.

I'll get some pictures and start a separate post or maybe a blog. As with anchors, one size/type won't fit all vessels but will be the subject of a thousand opinions. My interest is only the simplest system that works for my boat.

 

[IRENE]

You may prefer to have stabilizers at the time of resale.

There are at least 2 forum members that have recent installation experience, one new and one refit. A search may inform your decision about that, if interested.

 

[Portage_Bay]

All has been calculated, plus my "tank" can be tuned. I don't want to highjack a thread, so I'll just say that my "tank" right now is a flexible pillow tank laid out on the flying bridge. It can be stepped on, so it's not really in the way during sea trials. The deformation of the tank as the water shifts within effectively slows the weight transfer (as baffles do in a rigid tank).



The "weight calculation" is like having a big guy (+200 lbs) up on the flying bridge. I am assuming that the original designer took that into consideration as I've never had a problem with four people up there. There are additional ways to adjust timing/effectiveness (water volume, air entrapment, kinetic viscosity from additives) that I am working with.



Vinyl coated polyester ($54), threaded fitting ($12), 25 gallons of water (free) to make a 9 x 2.5' tank. Not much to look at and zero installation cost.



I'll get some pictures and start a separate post or maybe a blog. As with anchors, one size/type won't fit all vessels but will be the subject of a thousand opinions. My interest is only the simplest system that works for my boat.

I like your thoughts on the system and look forward to a new thread on the system as the concept and design evolve.

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[Retriever]

I'm in the "wouldn't go on the ocean without them" category. Once you've had them, it's pretty difficult to go back to life without them. And they're not just useful on the ocean...I like my fins just as much, maybe more, as an anti-wake device.

Especially if you have extensive ocean cruising plans, finding a boat with stabilizers already installed is likely the most cost effective choice. Make sure they're still supported or adjust the budget. Some manufacturers from the 80s aren't in business any longer and parts are difficult to come by.