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Old 01-14-2019, 06:55 AM   #21
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SeeVee, have you considered mounting the panels on the rails surrounding the aft fly bridge deck on some sort of swing out system? I like the elegance of putting them on the Bimini, but it how much difficulty would they add to taking the bimini down for a hurricane? I've had to take down my Bimini at least once a year for the last 5 years. It's already a PIA.


I'm watching this thread closely as we have the same boat with the same battery set up and similar power usage.
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Old 01-14-2019, 06:56 AM   #22
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My advice would be to beef up the battery bank, as you would want to make sure to have adequate power reserve to get you through a cloudy day.

On the plus side of shelling out the dollars, I believe that if you consider the boat to be your second residence, you can still claim a 30% tax credit of your 2019 federal taxes for any solar installations

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Old 01-14-2019, 07:09 AM   #23
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My advice would be to beef up the battery bank, as you would want to make sure to have adequate power reserve to get you through a cloudy day.

On the plus side of shelling out the dollars, I believe that if you consider the boat to be your second residence, you can still claim a 30% tax credit of your 2019 federal taxes for any solar installations

Jim
Jim,

I've already beefed up the battery bank, which works fine... just need to have another charging source. On a cloudy day I'll still get "some" charging from solar and not afraid to start the gen if needed.

Just looking for a good solar solution that will at least keep the batteries topped off most of the time.

Tax is not an issue on this installation.

Thx for the thoughts.
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Old 01-14-2019, 07:36 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Dougcole View Post
SeeVee, have you considered mounting the panels on the rails surrounding the aft fly bridge deck on some sort of swing out system? I like the elegance of putting them on the Bimini, but it how much difficulty would they add to taking the bimini down for a hurricane? I've had to take down my Bimini at least once a year for the last 5 years. It's already a PIA.


I'm watching this thread closely as we have the same boat with the same battery set up and similar power usage.
Dougcole,

The swing out system sounds like a good plan. I don't want to mount them on a soft top at all, however, I'm considering a hard top, which would work fine, too.
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Old 01-14-2019, 02:50 PM   #25
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Solar panel rail mounts

I have three small solar panels mounted on the aft flybridge railing of my Mainship 390 with home-made bracketry. They clip to the railing and have a support strut that attaches to the rail stanchion. I chose to mount them to the second rail for two reasons....from the flybridge they are hardly noticeable, and they need not be removed to shrink-wrap the boat. The strut hose-clamps to the stanchion tube, so they hang vertically when its loosened. This arrangement also provides adjustment of panel angle.
This has worked so well that I'm contemplating putting a pair of panels at each stanchion, total of six. I'll need to add some framing to each pair of panels (they'll be rotated 90deg from their present orientation), and the strut will support them at the framing member between the panels.
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Old 01-14-2019, 03:17 PM   #26
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Dougcole,

The swing out system sounds like a good plan. I don't want to mount them on a soft top at all, however, I'm considering a hard top, which would work fine, too.
Seevee--- Go for a hardtop!
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Old 01-14-2019, 05:36 PM   #27
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Lots of info being tossed at you here however the thing to keep in mind is that nearly all of them work. There are some basic guidelines many recommend like using an MPPT charge controller to help with battery life however most manufactures will offer and explain the different options. In the end the available installation space and budget will ultimately determine what you get. That's what we realized when we were agonizing over the many options. In the end I just pared the options down to what would fit in the place we envisioned solar panels residing.

In our case we wanted solar charging but we didn't didn't want panels in our way or a focal point of the boat. We also were reluctant to custom manufacture stainless frames etc. We envisioned panels on our bimini and that meant light and light meant flexible. We got our canvas shop to install spots to take three on the fly bridge bimini. We bought two panels with a controller capable of handling three. Glad we did because the next year we added the third.

As for the size of array you get that will also be dictated by space. Not a lot of mid sized boats have room for more than 400W worth of solar panels without going to great lengths to make space. A 300W system in good sun conditions will keep up with a fridge and occasional pump run very well however keep in mind that it's nearly always a losing battle when it comes to running on solar. Eventually you have to run a generator. The dealer we bought from says he never starts his generator but then his boat looks like a solar panel show room too.

Soooo...my suggestion, the space you have to work with and what you want it to look like will determine the size of array and type of panel you use. After that get the best panel system and controller you can afford that fits in that spot, it'll work just fine.

By the way, there is a 300W solar system installed on the boat in my avatar. No one ever knows it's there.
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Old 01-14-2019, 05:49 PM   #28
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New installations would be wise to consider using panels with the highest Vmp that will fit their installation. A decent MPPT will convert that voltage in most cases to either 12, 24 and in some cases higher to match that needed to charge batteries.

The reason for higher panel voltages is related to the needed wire size to connect the panels to a controller with minimal power lost in that wiring. Low voltage panels require larger wire sizes than that needed for higher voltage panels.

My advise is to use care if your panel voltage is higher than what can safely be used (about 50v), Mine soar to close to 70 in open circuit conditions and for that reason I installed a panel disconnect just before my controller for my personal safety
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Old 01-14-2019, 06:06 PM   #29
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New installations would be wise to consider using panels with the highest Vmp that will fit their installation. A decent MPPT will convert that voltage in most cases to either 12, 24 and in some cases higher to match that needed to charge batteries.

The reason for higher panel voltages is related to the needed wire size to connect the panels to a controller with minimal power lost in that wiring. Low voltage panels require larger wire sizes than that needed for higher voltage panels.

My advise is to use care if your panel voltage is higher than what can safely be used (about 50v), Mine soar to close to 70 in open circuit conditions and for that reason I installed a panel disconnect just before my controller for my personal safety
I highly recommend installing a good circuit breaker ahead of the controller as well. An MPPT controller drops the high voltage the panels produce to increase the current. I wanted to be able to disconnect the panels completely from the load if any work needed to be done or I wanted to remove a panel while in sunlight.
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Old 01-15-2019, 12:54 AM   #30
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Hi Seevee,
I have solar panels (2 large rigid panels) on the roof of my pilothouse, installed last spring, so I only have experience with them of one summer. I also had solar on my previous boat, a sailboat where I had both rigid and flexible panels (one each).


We installed 2 fairly large panels on the Pilothouse roof of Pilitak (NT37) a year ago. The panels are monocyrstalline, solid aluminum framed with glass tops and are about 280 watts each (if I remember correctly – close anyway).
My suggestions for a solar install:
Put on the largest panels (total output) you can fit! More capacity is better in this case and the price difference in up sizing is not substantial when looking at the whole project.
Use MPPT type of controller, not the PWM type (especially for converting the unused voltage into useable amps). Some suggest using a separate controller for each panel which will maximize battery input when there is partial shading. I only used one Morning Star MPPT controller with a remote panel for “watching what is going on”. Use a quality brand controller (not the place to cut costs). Other good brands include: BlueSky, Outback, Genasun, etc.
Mount them in a location where shading from overhead items will be minimal and unless you are going to automate having the panels “point to the sun”, mount them basically flat, pointing straight up. In the Florida sun (hot), you want good air flow around them (under them as well) for optimal cooling. (As stated above by DW).

I installed mine so as to not penetrate the roof. Worried about future leaks. I attached stainless steel tubing to the existing hand rails above the pilothouse doors, to make a “mounting frame”. I then attached the panels to the tube “frames” using four (4) plastic adjustable “tube mounts”. I did the physical install myself, but did use a marine electrician for the electrical, but it was fairly straight forward for someone with some DIY electrical experience.
Anyway, I am happy with the total install after one season. Any day where the sun was out (not foggy) the solar restored my battery bank back to 100% each day by about 2PM (or earlier). I only ran the generator to make hot water (on a couple of occasions) and when we had heavy fog for a few days! We were out for over 3 months and put about 20 hours on the generator. Most of the time we were at anchor or docks with no power (say 70% of the time). We were out in over 30 knot winds, and did not have any problems with the mounting system.
Some background: we use golf cart 6v batteries totaling about 650 AH and run a fridge/freezer, separate freezer (24/7), electric head, lights, pumps, etc.

My panels are approx. 3 feet by 6 feet each in size. To optimize output, you could use several smaller panels, all with separate controller, but your cost to purchase and install would go way up (compared) and the gain might not be that great (if the available total watts were equal), therefore, cost to benefit may not be there.
Running the generator in the AM to make hotwater, bulk charge the batteries, (and whatever else you may need AC power for) would definitely almost guarantee having a good solar installation getting your batteries back to 100% each day. (I have found that generator running is not needed on most summer days here in western Canada). Your batteries will last longer if brought back to 100% charge (almost) everyday as a side benefit to solar. Without solar (or wind, etc) most boaters who do not "plug in" regularly do not get the batteries back to 100% near often enough for optimal battery life, and are in effect "murdering their batteries".
Hope this helps with your decision,
Tom
FH75 very good advice and would do the same and if i could i would also add wind power as well. Mppt aer the best for getting the most from your panels and protecting your batteries however for even more protection i would use a desolfater and i hope i spelled that. Have a great day!
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Old 01-15-2019, 01:18 AM   #31
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Partial shade used to be a big issue with old panels and controllers, but with modern solar panels and MPPT controllers partial shade is much less of a factor.

A hardtop over the cockpit is the best place to mount the panels. And its much easier to wash bird poo of panels rather than canvas.

High temperature isn't an issue with hard panels, as long as you leave a bit of space underneath for air circulation. Flexible panels mounted directly on canvas suffer from heat problems.
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Old 01-15-2019, 04:52 AM   #32
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Did a bid to searching for solar panels for the boat and there's a LOT of stuff out there!

Need some basics and recommendations.

Currently have four 6v AGMS which yield 440a at 12v, of which 220a is usable, not discharging below half.

Goal:
Be able to charge up the batteries after using them overnight, when they are down around 12.2 volts.
And charge them, while they are powering a fridge or two and some small stuff, perhaps 5a worth.
And just to maintain the batteries at the dock.

Would prefer a hard or semi hard panel. Looked at mounting to the Bimini top, a possibility, also considering a hard top, which should be fine. If not, some sort of railing mount, maybe something that swings up on the side.

Questions:
How much is enough?
How big are the panels for xxx power?
Can one recommend some good brands and companies to deal with?
Is monocrystaline the best material?
Will these things withstand the summer heat in FL, when I'm sure they will be north of 130d?

=====

Another wild question:
Is it possible to get 220v out of a solar array? I'm not able to get dock power to my boat for awhile, and it will be expensive... just wondering if some sort of 220v power is an option.
To save yourself some money get a plug and play system with a Mppt controller and mono panels most powerful you can get for your space and dollar. But search anyway, its rare but you may get it cheaper than a kit. The key is as much power as you can for space and won't go wrong. Rule of thumb, on normal days you should be recharged 100% by noon. Can't always get this on boats and this is why you get as much power for your space you plan to mount panels. Take your time and look for what will do the job. It would not be a bad idea to mount house panels as they are usually more powerful but look because they also are standard 24volt panels but do make 12 volt. So take your time and look. Now that you know what you're looking for you should be powered up in no time
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Old 01-18-2019, 04:15 PM   #33
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Were I in charge of your perfectly good money I would do this:

Measure the space you have. I love those panels that are mounted vertically for a boat like yours. She's so pretty, I'd not want to mess with her lines. She is too beautiful!



Side Note regarding the movable panels: My friend on a 40' motor sailor spent considerable time and effort getting panels that rotate. Mostly they sit in one position as the "hassle factor" of moving them is more than she is willing to do. Keep that in mind.

For me, I'd place them in one position and call it good.

You'll want the greatest quantity of watts that will fit and still look good. I suspect that will be the 100 watt Renogy panels. Figure 35Ah per day per panel. [Take your wattage, divide by three and call it amps. MPPT controllers will increase that total.]

The thing is, you already have a generator so I'm wondering if this is an exercise you really want to undertake. When running, your alternators are charging. Your genny is most likely quiet. Do you really want the $$ outlay?

Please note I LOVE my solar panels. That said, I started with one 75 watt panel, which ran my netbook (1.5Ah) and the anchor light. Next I added two 100 watt panels. That "should" have been enough, however it was't. So, with the gift of two 85 watt panels I'm at 445 watts and totally fine.

Seaweed's alternator is not hooked up. When I am underway nothing good happens for my batteries so I am totally dependent upon solar and the Air-Breeze wind generator. Except at Gulfport, over here the wind genny has been mostly useless. I don't get the sea breezes I experienced on the east coast.

Details on how to totally mess up an alternator install can be found here:
Upsizing the Alternator - My Mistake article on janice142


However, I believe there is also an issue with your numbers. I suspect you're counting the power consumed with air conditioning running inside your boat. In the heat of summer or even when the sun is shining on that side of the boat your figures Might be substantially higher.

There are a couple things you can do to ameliorate that.
#1) Install a pair of fans behind your units. I have one fan that blows on the compressor and a second that pulls air out of that compartment. Those are on a switch and only run when the starboard side of my boat is in direct sunlight.
#2) Keep the units filled. Contents will keep the temperatures stable far better than empty space.

The switch for my reefer fans is just to the left of the reefer on on that strip of vertical wood.


As for power consumption, as tested in 80 degree ambient weather, my 3.1 cubic foot two-door Haier refrigerator used 60 Ah in 24 hours.

Of course yours may be far more energy efficient.

A hardtop is another option though for most boats I don't like them. Yours however is heavy so the additional weight topside would not be such a concern. Weight aloft may cause lighter weight boats to roll more.

A mounting system using hard panels above the bimini may be a viable option -- IF you need it.

In any event, though you say you're comfortable with 440Ah of batteries in the bilge, I will say that Seaweed has twice that. When I say I don't worry about power, I mean it! Those extra batteries did effect my stability (for the better) though it cost me speed.

I would First increase your battery bank to at least 1kw. That's because when you're underway you'll be filling those batteries with power via your alternator. That will in my view give you the best bang-for-the-buck.

So here's your list:
#1) Increase the battery bank A LOT.
#2) Confirm that the Renogy 100 watt panels will fit vertically along the rails on your fly bridge.
#3) Buy an over-sized MPPT solar controller. You may want to add more solar down the road so having a too-big unit now will pay off in the end.
#4) Use large cable. I upsized to a controller that fits 6 gauge wire. It took ferrules (to get the round wire to fit into a square peg) so ...!


In any event, first upsize your battery bank.
Then see if you really do need solar for your life underway.
IF so, then add vertically mounted solar panels around the rails of your fly-bridge, with the associated MPPT solar controller.

Anyway, that's how I would spend your perfectly good money.
See you at the Legion!

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Old 01-18-2019, 05:03 PM   #34
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Off the Grid -

Ok, I am going to step out on a limb here is suggest you take a look at this web site https://www.gonewiththewynns.com
The Wynn's are from Texas, knew nothing about sailing, now they are globally sailing. They did lots of research and you can actually watch videos of how they evaluated their gear on line and Utube. Very well done segments, in fact over 150 and counting. Watch the one about how they picked the solar system and how its working, the batteries they use, very good detail, and very fun people to get to know! They will respond to when connected.

Best of Luck, as an FYI, I am right in the middle of purchasing a Mainship 390 so its great to connect to another Mainship owner!
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Old 01-18-2019, 06:03 PM   #35
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Janice142, how long does it your alternator to charge your bank? How many amps does your unit produce under way? I can tell you spend a lot of time with your boat, do you live aboard?
Happy sailing..
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Old 01-18-2019, 07:28 PM   #36
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Unfortunately Seablue898, I get zero power from my alternator. It is not wired into my system. Due to operator error, and a series of "Good Ideas" that were in reality bad ones, I have no functioning alternator.

Details can be found in this article:
Upsizing the Alternator - My Mistake article on janice142

That link details how I took a 5-15A alternator (I don't know the exact size) and improved the system until it broke. This was not a shining moment. And it was a costly one in that the 100Ah small frame alternator was $200 plus installation.

Suffice it to say, the article is a road map of how a perfectly good idea can go wrong. Sigh.

Back then I was trying to figure out a way to run a room a/c at anchor. I Really wanted to be able to run the air conditioner when underway or away from shore power. That simply cannot happen. I just don't have a way to power even a 500 watt Air-conditioner.

The 18hp Kubota, with alternator in place: (before I "improved" it)


The original alternator that came with the Kubota, is back on the engine. Due to a series of "Good Ideas" that were definitely not, I am left with this "system" per se. The alternator's sole purpose now is to hold the fan belt which makes the raw water pump cool the engine. As for that, it works.
Sigh.

Here's my boat:


And yes, Seaweed is my home. I am very fortunate.
If you're curious about life afloat, on a budget and in a small boat please feel free to wander around my website.

GOod luck with your boating future Seablue.

Tomorrow (IF I stop playing here on Trawler Forum that is) will be another on batteries.
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Old 01-18-2019, 09:15 PM   #37
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Unfortunately Seablue898, I get zero power from my alternator. It is not wired into my system. Due to operator error, and a series of "Good Ideas" that were in reality bad ones, I have no functioning alternator.

Details can be found in this article:
Upsizing the Alternator - My Mistake article on janice142

That link details how I took a 5-15A alternator (I don't know the exact size) and improved the system until it broke. This was not a shining moment. And it was a costly one in that the 100Ah small frame alternator was $200 plus installation.

Suffice it to say, the article is a road map of how a perfectly good idea can go wrong. Sigh.

Back then I was trying to figure out a way to run a room a/c at anchor. I Really wanted to be able to run the air conditioner when underway or away from shore power. That simply cannot happen. I just don't have a way to power even a 500 watt Air-conditioner.

The 18hp Kubota, with alternator in place: (before I "improved" it)


The original alternator that came with the Kubota, is back on the engine. Due to a series of "Good Ideas" that were definitely not, I am left with this "system" per se. The alternator's sole purpose now is to hold the fan belt which makes the raw water pump cool the engine. As for that, it works.
Sigh.

Here's my boat:


And yes, Seaweed is my home. I am very fortunate.
If you're curious about life afloat, on a budget and in a small boat please feel free to wander around my website.

GOod luck with your boating future Seablue.

Tomorrow (IF I stop playing here on Trawler Forum that is) will be another on batteries.
Janice thanks for replying to me. I started a thread untitled trawler thoughts, its about my dream boat called the hardy star i think you may find it interesting. However feel free to check it out and put me in my place if im out of line or if im just being a mad man. I will go to see your site as this is the life style i hope to live one day.
Yes you are blessed, i love your boat because it looks very close to the hardy star i want to build one day.
Happy sailing and smooth seas always..
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Old 01-18-2019, 09:25 PM   #38
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Janice i must be blind because i do not see a link to your site. However, by what you told me i bet you tried to run your ac on dc current or you did not wire it currently. I have tuns of questions about your boat need the link.
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Old 01-18-2019, 09:55 PM   #39
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I always google Janice aboard seaweed and find it! http://janice142.com
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Old 01-19-2019, 08:55 PM   #40
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Janice i must be blind because i do not see a link to your site. However, by what you told me i bet you tried to run your ac on dc current or you did not wire it currently. I have tuns of questions about your boat need the link.
Hi Seablue... the link is there. TrawlerForum takes the link then changes it to the page title. I've titled the page "Upsizing the Alternator - My Mistake article on janice142" so if you click on

Link: Upsizing the Alternator - My Mistake article on janice142
you will get to the article detailing the alternator fiasco.

Thanks for the idea re ac/dc. That's not the problem I have an inverter that powers my boat just fine. It is square wave. Thus I bought a pure sine wave inverter so the microwave will work.

As I'm certain you realize, most items with digital controls do not function well on the less expensive modified sine wave inverters. Until the advent of the microwave my Aims1000 worked for my world without issue.

Details on that inverter and others can be found at this website:
http://theinverterstore.com

The Aims1000 would even power the air conditioner -- except that even with 445 watts of solar I could not keep up with the power drain (peaking at 465 watts) caused by the Haier 5k BTU wall banger ... thus the impetus to find a way to create more power than my wind and solar could. And that is how the whole Alternator Fiasco began.

One good idea, leading to another, and then finally what could have been a real disaster. I was fortunate. Discovering where the problem originated (2 years prior, and several mechanics ago) ... anyway, details are in the linked article above.

And thanks too to gmarr. That was right nice of you.
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