Seems like too much to break or jamb. I think a nice solid Schilling rudder would be fantastic - efficient and with that wonderful fishtail wedge
Single or Twin Screw!!
- Thread starter Halifax Jack
- Start date
The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Seems like too much to break or jamb. I think a nice solid Schilling rudder would be fantastic - efficient and with that wonderful fishtail wedge
psneeld
Guru
Iots of things break on boats, new tugs all have much more complex drive systems and they work hard every day.
Spacecraft and airplans are complex with articulated surfaces.
Engineered and built correctly should provide recreational boating just fine.
Heck, a well designed rudder on a slow boat is amazing, but if I were to improve on it, I would go all the way.
Spacecraft and airplans are complex with articulated surfaces.
Engineered and built correctly should provide recreational boating just fine.
Heck, a well designed rudder on a slow boat is amazing, but if I were to improve on it, I would go all the way.
Last edited:
Absolutely!
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2008
- Messages
- 13,731
- Location
- California Delta
- Vessel Name
- FlyWright
- Vessel Make
- 1977 Marshall Californian 34 LRC
This is what I do if coming bow first into the dock/wind but my line is on my midship cleat. I grab the closest dock cleat then power fwd to line up with the dock. If I have to shoehorn between 2 other boats on the dock, I often back up to the dock cleat to use my aft stbd cleat with line ready. Once the stern is tied short, I can power fwd to line up with the dock.
Absolutely!! I couldn't single-hand as easily without both.
Attachments
psneeld
Guru
Al...sure...I think the discussion jumps around and one technique isnt right for the next boat or situation. The technique I am describing is for times you CAN'T get anything but the biw near the dock. You might be able to use a midship cleated spring but I see no advantage in severe conditions.
And I am talking the rare situation that rec boaters might be caught in...but many may never try to come to a face dock in 3 or more knots of ciurrent ot 30+ knots of wind perpendicular to the face dock. Even less might be all that it takes or a shorthandec crew to make getting your beam close enough to the dock to do anything.
Twins alow a little more flexibility in moderate conditions, but I have also seen plenty of twin drivers wind up in bad situations. It's because rthey have a spring line on they are used to using and the conditions are more than their boat or helmsman can handle.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2008
- Messages
- 13,731
- Location
- California Delta
- Vessel Name
- FlyWright
- Vessel Make
- 1977 Marshall Californian 34 LRC
Agreed....just throwing it out there for others with differing boat configurations to consider.
To better describe my setup, my spring line is rigged to my amidship cleat but the tag end is draped over the bow rail when I'm going to the dock in those conditions. I enter bow first and ask that it be secured as short as allowable...then I power fwd to align with the dock. Bow and stern lines are rigged and ready for the final dock tie.
To better describe my setup, my spring line is rigged to my amidship cleat but the tag end is draped over the bow rail when I'm going to the dock in those conditions. I enter bow first and ask that it be secured as short as allowable...then I power fwd to align with the dock. Bow and stern lines are rigged and ready for the final dock tie.
This why I became adept at tossing my spring out the window by my helm. I mentioned earlier if you toss a bight instead of an eye it's easier to get it over something on the dock and it's made fast with both ends on the boat so you can just let one end go when your done and leaving the dock.
This little video while not directly applicable to the type boats we're talking about at least shows a possible technique. I used to work occasionally on ore boats in the Great Lakes and we made extensive use of lines both for simply docking but also for maneuvering the ship back and forth while loading ore. That was typically with wire rope on winches so a bit beyond the scope of our discussion.
Note that the vessel is keep under constant control while maneuvering.
Note that the vessel is keep under constant control while maneuvering.
Last edited by a moderator:
Been watching the demonstration videos on Youtube. It appears that the boats with articulated rudders have about a 4-boat length turn radius (half of a traditional one). But then the fishtail rudder boat has about a 1.5 turn radius. Basically it's a stern thruster, in essence.
psneeld, I've been thinking about the recommendations that I've read in the past from Houston Pilots. They have a publication of recommendations for bridge design and in it they recommend either the Becker or Schilling rudders. I'm not sure if when you are referring to an "articulated" rudder that you mean a Becker or not. I don't like the idea of the external steering hydraulic cylinder in that design. Sure it works on so many commercial vessels, but what could be better than just a solidly welded up steel rudder of efficient design and no moving parts?
Anyway if you have some photos or design of what you are referring to, then please share.
Anyway if you have some photos or design of what you are referring to, then please share.
Seems a lot complexity and expense to avoid slipping the gearbox in and out forward and reverse a couple of times, but it is interesting. I ran a 76' longliner briefly that had an articulated rudder and
in some ways it was nice but that was mostly holding the boat over the fishing gear as it came aboard.
psneeld
Guru
Interested parties can easily find numerous articles on articulated rudders. Not that it is the end all info source, Passagemaker had a short article tolling the virtues of articulated rudders.
I have serious doubts that by design , fishtails perform better across the board. If they did, no one would design or install articulated rudders.
Not that fishtails arent a great thing too, so on new builds I would investigate both. Both can be added later also.
I have serious doubts that by design , fishtails perform better across the board. If they did, no one would design or install articulated rudders.
Not that fishtails arent a great thing too, so on new builds I would investigate both. Both can be added later also.
Last edited:
I looked into the articulating rudder for awhile and it just didn't make enough sense to install, and didn't wanted any more complexity even though it was rather simple. Ended up installing a simple fishtail with some stainless strips that worked pretty good, plus increasing my skills in the back and fill method and overall, works ok.
There's a good section on rudder design in Dave Gerr's book "Boat Mechanical Systems Handbook" that discusses this issue.
Sometimes a little practice at a basic skill can save some money. I don't have a lot of money so I've tried to focus on improving my skills to compensate. What's your rudder made of? I've looked at putting a fishtail on mine as it's fiberglass which wouldn't take much to modify, or return to original. I also looked into a bulbous bow but that's another story.
Fish,
I believe the rudder is bronze, but hard to tell. The fish tail I put on is stainless.
Diagram below:
Nice job, do you notice any increase in drag?
No drag that I notice... but would suspect some at high speed. But this is not a high speed boat.
Wxx3
Dauntless Award
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2013
- Messages
- 2,820
- Location
- USA
- Vessel Name
- Dauntless
- Vessel Make
- Kadey Krogen 42 - 148
Yep. This says it best for me. I'll only add that I knew before hand the kind of risks I'm willing to take. So that meant I absolutely needed to have the protection a full keel gives the running gear.
I'm sure it's been mentioned , but the number one reason an engine stops is a fuel issue. No amount of engines, wing engines , generators or whatever will cure that.
greatpapabear
Senior Member
Agreed, and that's why I'd far prefer a single engine. Two is just double the servicing and often less room to move around the engines.
1966 my family had 38' sport fisher whose single engine quit due to fuel blockage. CG towed us into Block Island.
2010 I had twins in a 1973 31' Uniflite that both quit in narrow canal due to fuel trouble in the one tank that fed both engines. Son and I had been out all day. Luckily... that problem didn't happen until we were less than 1/2 mile from my slip as we returned; buddy passing by side towed me in! Whew!!
Our Tolly has twins and two tanks. Each engine runs of its own tank. One might quit due to fuel trouble. Doubtful that both would have same fuel problem simultaneously.
Twins, each with their own independent tanks... will... "usually" mean the boat will not be stopped dead in the water due to a fuel issue. Of course, there is an exception to every rule!
ranger58sb
Guru
Our Tolly has twins and two tanks. Each engine runs of its own tank. One might quit due to fuel trouble. Doubtful that both would have same fuel problem simultaneously.
Twins, each with their own independent tanks... will... "usually" mean the boat will not be stopped dead in the water due to a fuel issue. Of course, there is an exception to every rule!
We have twins with separate tanks...
But then we tend to take on fuel in both tanks at the same time... so a load of bad fuel would likely affect both tanks, both engines...
<sigh>...
-Chris
As I mentioned in bottom of my post #204... "Of course, there is an exception to every rule!
"Also - I'm sure it happens, but I've not heard of fuel so bad from a fuel dock where an engine actually would not run [or, at least somewhat run - lol] on it. Have heard of dirty fuel where fuel filter needed constant cleaning.
