Simrad, RayMarine or Garmin

[catalinajack]

One mistake and the service is deemed horrible? I had the opposite experience awhile back. I guess that makes their service terrific.

Just an update on Simrads "great" service. My remote, covered under warranty which I expected in the mail on Tuesday.


Well, got it yesterday, but it was the WRONG PART.



It's going to be really hard to buy Simrad with the horrible support.

 

[catalinajack]

Old news.

Didn't Simrad turn off the auto route feature in the US? I think it was them. I don't know if it was a patent/intellectual property issue, or a liability issue.

 

[rslifkin]

Simrad evo3 has both, touch and knobs.

Yes, that and the general feature set, etc. is what had it at the top of my list until Furuno came out with an equivalent interface. But a 12" MFD + 24" radome is about the same price for the Simrad HALO radar or the Furuno NXT from what I can find, so with the ARPA abilities of the Furuno stuff vs the MARPA (that some have complained about) on the Simrad, plus Furuno's typically longer support lifecycle, the Furuno stuff wins in my book.

 

[catalinajack]

If you think it is a nightmare then don't use it. I use it as a starting point, a suggestion. I then modify the route as I deem appropriate. It saves having to input all the waypoints. Even if I don't actually use the route, it is terrific for demonstrating the route in general and the distance and time to destination.

Simrad shows it as current. Personally, I think auto routing in a system that includes an autopilot is a liability nightmare. But I'm not an attorney. View attachment 109490

 

[catalinajack]

Good points but aren't the Furuno products far more expensive? Price points are important to some folks. It was to me when I was in the market. Sure, I would love to have had an entire suite of Furuno but it was way outside my budget at the time. As it turned out, the Simrad suite served me just fine in the 7,000 miles of cruising I have done since.

Yes, that and the general feature set, etc. is what had it at the top of my list until Furuno came out with an equivalent interface. But a 12" MFD + 24" radome is about the same price for the Simrad HALO radar or the Furuno NXT from what I can find, so with the ARPA abilities of the Furuno stuff vs the MARPA (that some have complained about) on the Simrad, plus Furuno's typically longer support lifecycle, the Furuno stuff wins in my book.

 

[Seevee]

Didn't Simrad turn off the auto route feature in the US? I think it was them. I don't know if it was a patent/intellectual property issue, or a liability issue.

It's alive and well, and has been for several years. Works pretty well.

 

[Seevee]

Simrad shows it as current. Personally, I think auto routing in a system that includes an autopilot is a liability nightmare. But I'm not an attorney.

Weebles,


I respectfully, but TOTALLY disagree. The autorouting really has no more liability than just making the MFDs, or a holding heading feature, or depth feature. Overall, it's a GREAT feature, but like any feature, has to be used within it's limitations.



There's will be stupidity that will crash boats and wreck them buy doing stupid things, like not monitoring a chart, heading, or whatever. And there will probably be lawsuits because the manufacturer didn't tell them that there autopilot wouldn't route them around a jetty at night in the fog when they were drunk. Can't fix stupidity.

 

[rslifkin]

Good points but aren't the Furuno products far more expensive? Price points are important to some folks. It was to me when I was in the market. Sure, I would love to have had an entire suite of Furuno but it was way outside my budget at the time. As it turned out, the Simrad suite served me just fine in the 7,000 miles of cruising I have done since.

Historically Furuno was more expensive, but that doesn't seem to be the case now. As an example, the prices I'm currently finding for a Simrad NSS Evo 3S 12" MFD + Halo24 radar are $3999 for the MFD and $2799 for the radar.

The equivalent Furuno TZTouch3 12" MFD and 24" NXT radome comes in at $3095 for the MFD and $2095 for the radar, so about $1600 cheaper for the pair.

Autopilots from the 2 are pretty close in price, but the Furuno was slightly cheaper last I checked.

 

[mvweebles]

Weebles,


I respectfully, but TOTALLY disagree. The autorouting really has no more liability than just making the MFDs, or a holding heading feature, or depth feature. Overall, it's a GREAT feature, but like any feature, has to be used within it's limitations.



There's will be stupidity that will crash boats and wreck them buy doing stupid things, like not monitoring a chart, heading, or whatever. And there will probably be lawsuits because the manufacturer didn't tell them that there autopilot wouldn't route them around a jetty at night in the fog when they were drunk. Can't fix stupidity.

Seevee and Catalina Jack - let me emphasize that I said it would be a liability nightmare. Emphasis on liability. And emphasis on connected to an autopilot where a novice might be lulled into a set-and-forget mindset. That's not to deride the system or the function, just recognizing that it needs a modicum of adult oversight that may not be present and creates a foreseeable set of circumstances where the OEM (Simrad) could be considered wholly or partially responsible. Recall, we live in a society where lawn mower manufactures have been held liable because there wasn't a warning about putting your hand underneath a running lawnmower.

Peter

 

[Seevee]

Seevee and Catalina Jack - let me emphasize that I said it would be a liability nightmare. Emphasis on liability. And emphasis on connected to an autopilot where a novice might be lulled into a set-and-forget mindset. That's not to deride the system or the function, just recognizing that it needs a modicum of adult oversight that may not be present and creates a foreseeable set of circumstances where the OEM (Simrad) could be considered wholly or partially responsible. Recall, we live in a society where lawn mower manufactures have been held liable because there wasn't a warning about putting your hand underneath a running lawnmower.

Peter

Peter,


True, but the lawnmower guy will sue no matter what the product does. Doesn't have to be auto anything. Sell them a widget and they'll sue because they ran in front of a car carrying it.


Like I said, can't fix stupidity.


So, here's question... has ANY marine radio (MFD, autopilot, etc) been sued for anything related to the electronics, let alone the autorouting?

 

[AKDoug]

Thx for all the comments, give one some perspective on choices.


I should have included Furuno in the survey, didn't realize how big they are (Bigger than Navico, Simrad's parent). For the most part I thought they catered more to the fishing market and only recently got into recreation boaters. But they do have a great radar.


I can remember years ago when RayMarine (formerly Ratheon) has horrible service as least in my circle, but seems like that's changed.



Also, seems like Simrad's service has been questionable for a long time. One of the reasons I purchased Simrad was that my installer had good success in dealing with their poor support (and I liked the touch/knob screens).


Right now, I'd lean toward Raymarine, with a very close second to Garmin. Both have everything I want for the most part. Raymarines stability is a bit of a concern as Flir had them on the for sale block recently and only dropped it because of Corona. Garmin is a giant and very stable and will most likely be around, and overall, their support is excellent, and still supporting some of my old Aviation units that are over 10 years old.



Question for you Furuno experts? What choices in mapping are available? On their website, it's confusing. And, do they have autoroute?

Funny how some people have had poor service from Simrad, my experience has been otherwise. Every time I have had an issue it has been dealt with promptly, with personal service from a technician trained in the area I am having the problem, the last time dealing with a faulty radome.

Since technicians don't do the installation for the most part anymore, and you wind up doing it yourself, the plug and play systems like SimNet (and of course other like systems) solve most of the issues. When I installed my system the backlog for installation by professionals was months...

I like having all one manufacturer, since if I do have an issue I can go to a single source for resolution as I have with Simrad. My new iCom radio with AIS plugged right in with an NMEA 1083 cable and displays on the MFD. When it goes belly up, I will almost undoubtedly replace it with another Simrad unit and upgrade my radar to Halo from my current relatively unsatisfactory 3G.

The price of my package was in the range I could afford, if price were no object I would look at Furuno...

 

[Seevee]

Funny how some people have had poor service from Simrad, my experience has been otherwise. Every time I have had an issue it has been dealt with promptly, with personal service from a technician trained in the area I am having the problem, the last time dealing with a faulty radome.

Since technicians don't do the installation for the most part anymore, and you wind up doing it yourself, the plug and play systems like SimNet (and of course other like systems) solve most of the issues. When I installed my system the backlog for installation by professionals was months...

I like having all one manufacturer, since if I do have an issue I can go to a single source for resolution as I have with Simrad. My new iCom radio with AIS plugged right in with an NMEA 1083 cable and displays on the MFD. When it goes belly up, I will almost undoubtedly replace it with another Simrad unit and upgrade my radar to Halo from my current relatively unsatisfactory 3G.

The price of my package was in the range I could afford, if price were no object I would look at Furuno...

Would love to hear who gave you the good service at Simrad? Overall, I've been quite happy with the units, but not with the service. Wouldn't mind giving them another chance, but I'm leary. Just have this last issue take 3 months, talked to a dozen techs and finally got a $95 part replace. Should have just paid for a new one.

 

[AKDoug]

Would love to hear who gave you the good service at Simrad? Overall, I've been quite happy with the units, but not with the service. Wouldn't mind giving them another chance, but I'm leary. Just have this last issue take 3 months, talked to a dozen techs and finally got a $95 part replace. Should have just paid for a new one.

To be honest, I saved the e-mail address of the tech who gave me support, and now I just e-mail him when I have a question. His name is Steve, and I tend to try to go the direct route instead of having a new ticket started every time I need to make contact.

 

[twistedtree]

It's alive and well, and has been for several years. Works pretty well.

Thanks for the update.

 

[Circumnavigator]

That's a question much like asking us to pick Ford, Chevy, or Dodge years ago -- if you asked three people, you'd get three different strong opinions.


FWIW, on Fintry we have Furuno for the base systems -- two radars, Black Box chartplotter running two 1240x1080 televisions. and TZT14 chartplotter for redundancy. Furuno N2K AP -- we had a Simrad AP25, but when we upgraded to N2K, had trouble with the Simrad N2K unit and decided to go with Furuno for the AP.



We have a satellite compass -- absolutely great on a steel ship and also for running the AP through bridges and locks. The Simrad HS60 GPS satellite compass is about the same price as an electronic magnetic compass -- much cheaper than the Furuno satellite compass and has been just fine for two years over a couple of thousand miles.


The only thing I feel strongly about is Furuno for radar. If you look over the fishing fleet at New Bedford / Fairhaven -- hundreds of boats spending a lot of time in dense fog -- I'd guess that 80% of the radars are Furuno. Mine have been rock solid.


Although the Furuno chartplotter is certainly usable and it is very responsive, for planning complex routes, I like OpenCPN, which is freeware running on PC, Apple, Linux, or others, so we run it side by side with the Furuno. Again, redundancy is the key.

 

[Heap]

I recently (Last May) replaced my circa 2004 Raymarine suite with a brand new Raymarine suite. Before I comment here, I think there is a long letter I need to send, and serious conversation I need to have with the Raymarine representatives. I’m still trying to figure out exactly what the system does, why it doesn’t do some of the things I think it is supposed to do, and why it does some of the things it does. In other words, I don’t know that comments I would make would be because of system deficiencies, user error, or training/instruction shortfall.

 

[mvweebles]

Having read this thread with interest, my suggestion would be to find a good one-man-band to purchase from. Their pricing is competitive, their knowledge is superb, and their hours are nearly 24/7.

I pinged TheHullTruth forum a while back and got some good responses back from small independent dealers. I didn't follow up as I didn't have much business to give them and didn't want to take advantage. In hindsight, I wish I'd purchased that way. I purchased through BOE Marine who had great tech support at the time, but recently when I called, I got "read our website. All information is there".

 

[Capt. Jon]

I recently (Last May) replaced my circa 2004 Raymarine suite with a brand new Raymarine suite. Before I comment here, I think there is a long letter I need to send, and serious conversation I need to have with the Raymarine representatives. I’m still trying to figure out exactly what the system does, why it doesn’t do some of the things I think it is supposed to do, and why it does some of the things it does. In other words, I don’t know that comments I would make would be because of system deficiencies, user error, or training/instruction shortfall.

What Raymarine suite do you have? How is it connected, NMEA or Raynet? What version of Lighthouse III are you using? Reason I ask is because I do some testing for them and I’m fairly good with the system up through Lighthouse version 3.12.xx We use a GS165 and can no longer upgrade unless we move up to a newer Axiom unit.

Raymarine makes some really great systems. Lighthouse system just gets better and easier to use with each update. However, I will say the best RADAR I’ve used if Furuno. The Furuno unit on our 48 Californian is older but works awesome once you learn how to tune it.

 

[Helmsman]

I recently (Last May) replaced my circa 2004 Raymarine suite with a brand new Raymarine suite. Before I comment here, I think there is a long letter I need to send, and serious conversation I need to have with the Raymarine representatives. I’m still trying to figure out exactly what the system does, why it doesn’t do some of the things I think it is supposed to do, and why it does some of the things it does. In other words, I don’t know that comments I would make would be because of system deficiencies, user error, or training/instruction shortfall.

I installed all new Raymarine equipment in 2017. Probably the last year for the eS127. They used to have a great forum with support from the moderators, but I think they shut that down. That is a mistake, it was a “lifesaver” for me. That forum was about the only way to get instruction from them. Their software is not intuitive. Their “manuals” are weak, at best. In fact, the software and written material are both very counter-intuitive. Their releases have been buggy at best, and a constant source of irritation at worst.

It appears that they bury needed adjustments under mis-labeled options, that on many cases have almost nothing to do with the adjustment.

Finally, they have quit updating the eS series of chart plotters even though there are still bugs in them. So, I wouldn’t recommend Raymarine unless you have plenty of time to work on their system, learn from others, dig through forums, etc. to figure out how to do ordinarily simple things. Of course, once I dedicated a lot of time to it, I could use it, and then began dealing with the bugs that needed to be fixed. All of that time was time that I could have been doing other things that were more enjoyable.

But, to each his own. The next system will be Garmin or Foruno.

 

[Capt. Jon]

I installed all new Raymarine equipment in 2017. Probably the last year for the eS127. They used to have a great forum with support from the moderators, but I think they shut that down. That is a mistake, it was a “lifesaver” for me. That forum was about the only way to get instruction from them. Their software is not intuitive. Their “manuals” are weak, at best. In fact, the software and written material are both very counter-intuitive. Their releases have been buggy at best, and a constant source of irritation at worst.

It appears that they bury needed adjustments under mis-labeled options, that on many cases have almost nothing to do with the adjustment.

Finally, they have quit updating the eS series of chart plotters even though there are still bugs in them. So, I wouldn’t recommend Raymarine unless you have plenty of time to work on their system, learn from others, dig through forums, etc. to figure out how to do ordinarily simple things. Of course, once I dedicated a lot of time to it, I could use it, and then began dealing with the bugs that needed to be fixed. All of that time was time that I could have been doing other things that were more enjoyable.

But, to each his own. The next system will be Garmin or Foruno.

Are you still running Lighthouse II 19.xx? If so you need to try updating to Lighthouse III 3.11.xx

 

[Helmsman]

Are you still running Lighthouse II 19.xx? If so you need to try updating to Lighthouse III 3.11.xx

I updated to LH III last summer. I like the interface better than LH II.

With an eS127 using LH III, you lose the ability to check for and update software when it is available. I have to take a picture of the versions for the MFD, radar, AP, IP, and the radio on the MFD, then download to a MicroSD card on a PC, then take to the boat to update. Each update file (*.iso) has to be on a separate card, so either multiple cards or trips for more than one update.

The LH III for the eS127 is sunset as of last November per Raymarine and will no longer be updated.

I sold the boat a few weeks ago, am now looking at trawlers, hence my arrival here. I will switch out RM software for something more user friendly as part of changing boats if necessary.

 

[Hippocampus]

Think Peters comment is spot on. All of these systems are fine. Question is where do you boat, what charts do you use, how do you boat and what’s the placement of your instruments.
Raymarine is out of New Hampshire. When totally frustrated by trying to get through to them on the phone I’ve driven up there. Then have had the issue handled well. That’s a plus if you’re in New England. Similarly if your in England that’s a plus for RM. but if you’re elsewhere, particularly in the Caribbean, it’s a negative. Guess they have poor market share in Europe so there’s only a few RM service sites.
Garmin wants to sell you everything. Their charts. Their active captain. Their sensors . Personal opinion is that attitude is a strong negative. Have to buy into their system. And garmin hardware service is a PIA.
I agree with Fintry. Depending on where you boat different functions become more important. For him it sounds like radar. Given all brandsae adequate he choose based on his opinion which had the best radar. That’s rational in my mind. We often change chart source and commonly have two microSDs in the plotter. We often don’t have fast secure WiFi or internet without big expense. So how chart updates are done and options to do that becomes important to us.
So would pick system on availability of service in your cruising grounds and how the brands system fits your peculiarities of use, how long the replacement interval is likely to be and ergonomics. For present would probably go with either simrad or furuno, navionics on the IPads, openCPN on the toughbook. Think it’s important that people have a MFD as looking at a Laptop or IPad still has its limitations. Particularly at night. Also harder to use in the nasties. But a nav system independent of the main system be available as well to anyone who ever goes to new unfamiliar places. It’s so reassuring to have a cruising guide open and two different chart sources open when doing a new landfall. As people no longer carry chart books it’s also reassuring to not be dependent solely on the MFD.

 

[Seevee]

Interesting comments on Raymarine. I made some calls and looked for reviews and Ray did not look pretty. One of the local dealers I've used was not happy about Ray and the support issues he had. Said it was too complicated with some of their proprietary stuff and support was poor.


So, scratch Ray off the list. Just leaves Garmin for me.


I "might" revisit Simrad, only because I know the product... just wish support were better.

 

[mvweebles]

As far as support, I think folks really need to decide whether DIY install is for them. Once the system is up and running, the systems are more similar than not. In my experience, Furuno firmware seems a bit dated and old and thus is more difficult to update, but that's probably deeper than many folks want to go.

When I was preparing to head to Ensenada MX to start my refit, I had a bunch of engine maintenance done to prep for the 500 nm nonstop run. And I had a load of 10+ year old diesel that was too expensive to get rid of, so I wanted to see if the boat would run okay without heroic measures. During 25-hours of seatrials, my old Furuno CRT/Magnetron radar crapped out just a couple days prior to planned departure. Not a big problem as I had a full set of new Simrad gear I was bringing down to avoid customs/duty - it would be installed later.

Except when I got it installed, the radar wouldn't go into transmit mode. I checked and re-checked everything. Pinched cables/wires, broken Ethernet prongs, settings in the system, re-load firmware, everything I could think of. Of course, failure occurred on a Friday afternoon so Simrad Tech Support was closed until Monday. I called BOE Marine in Maryland who had sold the system to me. They suggested replacing the cable.

I went to a small electronics dealer in Oakland CA (Star Marine - been there for years) who advertised being a Simrad dealer. I wanted to hire him to come out to the boat, but he was booked for 2-weeks out. Despite the fact I had not purchased from him, he let me borrow a cable to troubleshoot. When that didn't work, I was really at wits end - no way could I go down the coast 3-days straight without radar, and a decent wx window was opening in a couple days.

He suggested that while he couldn't come to the boat, if I could bring the system to him, he'd bench-test it. By this point, I was pretty good at install/uninstall of the system so had it to him in a few hours.

Turns out the main connector block was bad. DOA. I wasted a good 20-hours chasing it down. Great guy - he swapped it out and sent old one back to Simrad. Charged me a very nominal fee for bench test.

Moral of the story: Finding the Right Guy may be a better solution than picking the right OEM platform. I hope this doesn't sound arrogant, but I'm probably above [DIY] average in anything related to boat systems. I have my weaknesses (electrics), but being a long distance delivery skipper develops a certain sense of get-'er-done abilities. This one stumped me - DOA issues almost always do.

BTW - as I recall, the Right Guy who diagnosed my Simrad issue was mostly a Raymarine dealer. He said they'd come a long way over the years. Big shout-out to Star Marine. Saved my bacon in that instances.

Peter

 

[rslifkin]

I don't remember seeing this mentioned in the thread, but what specific system components are being looked at here? Such as size (and maybe example model) of MFD, radar, etc.

 

[mvweebles]

Good question rslifkin - would emphasize choice of A/P as there is probably some difference there. Simrad's pedigree in Robertson is a strong point in my mind.

Peter

 

[rslifkin]

Good question rslifkin - would emphasize choice of A/P as there is probably some difference there. Simrad's pedigree in Robertson is a strong point in my mind.

Peter

Yes, from everyone I've talked to, the Simrad APs are very well liked. The Furuno ones seem to be as well. Plenty of sailors with older Raymarine APs that are happy with them, but I don't know anyone with the newer Raymarine APs and haven't heard much about them (good or bad).

 

[Hippocampus]

Yup Peter. Totally agree service availability is the most important issue in choosing a system. Two stories.
We sailed down to BVI from Norfolk VA. Had a port light leak so VHF crapped out from salt intrusion. Wanted the DSC to work as it’s the way we call friends and of course it’s very important for safety. Messed with it and got nowhere. When on internet to buy another but it’s was obsolete and new version of that RM device was no longer available. New version didn’t talk to remote mic nor the rest of the system. Had taken it out and brought it to service guy in St. Lucia. He played with it and no joy. Took it with me and went home for Xmas. Bought it to New Hampshire. They had ones on the shelf used for servicing but not for sale. However, magically while I waited I got a working VHF. RM guy went above and beyond.
Was moving up the chain from Grenada with intention to head up in Antigua and leave for home from there. Between Grenada and Martinique one of our 3 MFDs crapped out. Although not the master it caused the others to be funky. Used the IPad and knew the area so not a biggie. Turned around because there’s a RM dealer in St.Lucia. Only option was either to replace everything or just replace the bad one. If just the bad one was replaced it would be stand alone and not in the network. So replaced all my e series with axioms. But the old AP wouldn’t talk with new axiom without buying yet another expensive back box. So left AP as stand alone. This is a big deal in buying decisions. Stuff breaks at different times. It’s important to see if historically the brand you contemplating to buy allows you to integrate heritage devices and devices from other brands. As another example I buy airmar directly as I have a way to get it cheaper than when it’s branded.

 

[Nepidae]

First, you should decide what kind of cruising you are planning. I didn't see a mention of an AIS. To me, this is a necessary safety item for your boat and can't be duplicated with a phone or tablet.

Second, if you are a pennies kind of guy you are going to go for the least expensive. That is fraught with tradeoffs. How does your final choice handle support? Are you kept on hold to get thru? How long of a warranty does your choice provide? What new benefits does your choice provide? How easy is it to learn the system and implement those tasks?

All of these questions will be answered with minimal benefits for the lower-priced products.

It's really pretty simple, you do get what you pay for.

Now, we are a Garmin boat. We have an 8616xsv MFD, autopilot with smart pump, Fantom 24" radome. We also have an AIS B+. These are all connected thru a NEMA 2000 backbone so that radar & AIS are displayed as an overlay on the MFD.

Included in this system we also have an inReach Explorer + and a VIRB XE camera. I opted for Standard Horizon for all of our radios.

BTW, knobs are just something to go bad and older technology.

Now, I asked about your cruising plans as you might not need what we have. We are on the 5th yr of our Loop and cruised the Chesapeake before that so if you are more restricted in your travels some of what I have you wouldn't be interested in.

When we cruise we generally are cruising for about 4hrs /day. Not a long day per se but to steer a boat it's a lot of wheel holding. I don't like that. The boat wanders all over and it's tiring.

So, our typical day is to start the NAV on the power panel, then go to the bridge (we only operate from the bridge) and turn on the MFD. I then put the day's destination into the plotter (there are several ways to do that) and then tell the plotter to auto-route. It will then lay in the course. I can make modifications but usually, just a once over and then will go off to get other items ready for our departure/cruise.

After we've left the marina or anchorage I engage the autopilot and sit back in our chairs. The boat is then doing the driving on the path that had been previously laid in. I sit holding a remote (forgot to mention that as another Garmin piece to the equipment) which gives me incremental ability to change course to the right or left, in 1 or 10deg increments to avoid any obstacle in front of us. I still have the ability to grab the wheel as well.

During the cruise, we generally don't touch the wheel, and our wake is railroad straight. The MFD provides our ETA so when we call a marina we are able to inform them of our ETA. Nice touch.

BTW, 2 MFD plotters aren't really necessary. Pick where you like to navigate from, we are 99.999% from the bridge and put the MFD there. IF, big IF, you really feel you need to have a 2nd plotter then put in wire and bail for your MFD there. Then you can move the single unit.

There is a lot more, I just gave a small synopsis of our equipment. IF you'd like to discuss more, send me a message and we'll start a conversation.

Good luck.

 

[Seevee]

Totally agree on having a good installer. I'm also a DIY installer, and occasionally hire a grunt guy to do the grunt work under my supervision and I'll hire a top notch experienced installer, perhaps to do part of the work and double check my work.



That's what I did with the Simrad install I did three years ago. However, I've done a lot of stand alone, GPS, depth, etc installs without help or issue.



When ya get a bunch of stuff that talks to each other... Mapping, autopilot, radar, VHF, it's nice to have a "go to" support person.



But, I don't like to bother my guy unless it's necessary and simple failures that Simrad should take care of should be easy, without him. I just wish Simrad were more responsive.



And, I can't take my guy with me, so I need a certain level of skills, too. (like most of us do).